How would you make the Solar Auxilia more "competitive"?

[WolfLogic]

Pretty regularly I've seen that the Solar Auxilia just doesn't hold up rules-wise when playing against the Legions. What changes to the rules would you make to make them more able to compete. I'm also curious to hear what other changes you might make to the Solar Aux rules. For example, I'd change the transport capacity of a Dracosan with a Demolisher Cannon to 12 instead of 10. 

[Marshal Rohr]

Auxilia by definition are not supposed to be able to hold up against Space Marines. Heresy 2.0 is a game with asymmetries in faction balance built in by design. Custodes > Marines > Mechanicum > Auxilia > Militia and we will see where Daemons shake out in a few weeks. 

Edited April 27, 2023 by Marshal Rohr

[WolfLogic]

1 hour ago, Marshal Rohr said:

Auxilia by definition are not supposed to be able to hold up against Space Marines. Heresy 2.0 is a game with asymmetries in faction balance built in by design. Custodes > Marines > Mechanicum > Auxilia > Militia and we will see where Daemons shake out in a few weeks. 

I wouldn't go as far as to say I dislike that idea, but I'm not fond of it. 

 

An individual Auxiliary is inferior to a Space Marine, yes. However, that should be made up by lower PPM cost. I'm not saying the balance should be perfect but it should be close to a 1:1 cost effectiveness. 

[Marshal Rohr]

3 hours ago, WolfLogic said:

I wouldn't go as far as to say I dislike that idea, but I'm not fond of it. 

 

An individual Auxiliary is inferior to a Space Marine, yes. However, that should be made up by lower PPM cost. I'm not saying the balance should be perfect but it should be close to a 1:1 cost effectiveness. 

 

And if you take 300 Auxiliaries and 12 Tanks in a 3500 list, you will win the game. People cant afford the size armies needed to balance the killiness of marines. 

[TheTrans]

Give them limited Low AP blasts back. 

Marines shouldn't be able to just tank artillery rounds to the face no worries. Give Solar Aux back what they used to rely upon, then when the marines close, its pretty much game over as even basic marines trounce through units with no abandon. 

Marines should brutalise humans in short to close range, but outside of the effective range of a bolter, a marine should be at the mercy of any heavily armoured fighting vehicle. 

All the non-marines just just suffer from every part of the new edition and don't get any of the benefits back.

WS difference, makes basic marines hard to hit for human troops

AP on blasts dropped, still goes straight through human troops armour (and the proliferation of Heavy subtype across marines now)

Lascannon increased effectiveness, humans get this benefit, but pay the same price for a lascannon but with BS3

Plasmagun Gets Hot now has AP4, again marines ignore it, but human troops goes straight through armour

LD drops across the board, puts humans into the '50/50' area even with a squad leader.

Dreadnoughts.

Generally :cuss:ty rules changes and a lack of care in writing of said rules.

 

And finally, the Human armies suffer hugely from the lack of model support, many excellent or well performing (hell even reasonably performing) models that are no longer in production got Legacie'd or Anuj'd (well that happened both with the release of 2.0 and prior) out of existence. 

 

(As a note, many of these issues also carry across for Mechanicum, for instance AP3 on Krak Grenades only effects automata, it doesn't bother any other unit type it can be used against...)

 

The design philosophy of 2.0 is "Marines should always win" and well they've clearly nailed that, if nothing else. 

[WolfLogic]

1 hour ago, Marshal Rohr said:

People cant afford the size armies needed to balance the killiness of marines. 

That's definitely a problem, but I wouldn't say it's a problem with the rules. 

 

1 hour ago, TheTrans said:

The design philosophy of 2.0 is "Marines should always win" and well they've clearly nailed that, if nothing else. 

Disappointing but true. I hope the rules for Mechanicum and Solar Aux get FAQed to be more viable, but that doesn't seem to be in GWs interest sadly.

[MegaVolt87]

Easy, bring back more potent arty would be a good start. 

[SkimaskMohawk]

9 hours ago, Marshal Rohr said:

Auxilia by definition are not supposed to be able to hold up against Space Marines. Heresy 2.0 is a game with asymmetries in faction balance built in by design. Custodes > Marines > Mechanicum > Auxilia > Militia and we will see where Daemons shake out in a few weeks. 

 

That's a bit of a iffy statement. Heresy 2nd is a rebalance of 1st, without understanding of what drove certain results. It's an edition of whiplash balance changes without any thought put in to them, with the most time out into the marines out of any faction. 

 

People go on about how power armour is supposed to be the star of the game, but it's just so untrue in the face of contemptors, lascannons, and the mass of ap3 melee.

 

5 hours ago, Marshal Rohr said:

 

And if you take 300 Auxiliaries and 12 Tanks in a 3500 list, you will win the game. People cant afford the size armies needed to balance the killiness of marines. 

 

This is it; Solar aux can make strong lists. It's just that you need more money and time to build+paint those lists than anything equivalent from Marines or Custodes. 140 solar aux with 27 laser rapiers in 2500 is good. 

[Petitioner's City]

5 hours ago, MegaVolt87 said:

Easy, bring back more potent arty would be a good start. 

 

A useful spread of breaching (4+) or similar on battle cannons, basilisks, medusae, etc, would be a nice way of giving them some immediate viability; rebalancing the flyers; rebalancing their legacy options; etc; fixing malcadors (including creating a heavy tank tercio), etc.

 

But also adding in more variety, and indeed drawing on some militia ideas that fit with auxilia - jetpack elites, cavalry, etc - and adding back in missing things like haywire grenades, chem ammos, etc., that gave them an edge in v1.

 

 

[Marshal Rohr]

Now that everything except Daemons from 1st Edition is out and we can evaluate the lists it really does feel like they Engineered faction rules to fall into the 'Lore' tiers. It didn't make sense at first when Custodes, which had dominated in 1st, still dominated with what seemed like very little balancing. Certain Knights stayed strong, I believe the entire list got blacklisted by an upcoming tournament because Ben Greaves on twitter was upset he'd signed up and painted a Knight only to not be able to take it. The Solar Aux list, in the same book as Custodes, has weird stuff like AV 13 Stormhammers, AP3 artillery was out, and the most effective lists needed to be based on high numbers of tanks and weak infantry - which lines up with their lore. Now that Militia is out and we can see Fearless Cultists are gonna and the ubiquitous artillery nerfs were applied, it doesn't feel like an iffy statement. Cults and Militia needed to be built super specifically in 1st to be competitive and in 2nd Edition the 'balance' pass requires them to be even MORE engineered to be competitive. When all the army lists are lining up exactly where they do in the lore, it feels intentional. 

 

 

Edit: Dont get me wrong, Im not saying it feel awesome, and they left so much out of Solar Aux and Militia they could've included. Skitarii still don't exist as a faction in the game in spite of being specifically mentioned as part of the Trinity, you still can't build the equivalent of the Imperial Army units of the Old Hundred, Lucifer Blacks, or Geno-Chilead with Solar Aux or Imperial Militia. 

Edited April 28, 2023 by Marshal Rohr

[Jolemai]

As an aside, why isn't the Carnodon in the main book?

[Marshal Rohr]

I think its days are numbered. The whole Solar Aux range has always felt incomplete because it is incomplete. Once their designer left FW they just kinda ran out of steam. 

[Petitioner's City]

1 hour ago, Marshal Rohr said:

I think its days are numbered. The whole Solar Aux range has always felt incomplete because it is incomplete. Once their designer left FW they just kinda ran out of steam. 

 

But the carnodon and aurox were from years after Edgar Skomorowski left FW in 2015, they actually were wonderful new additions from 2018.

[Marshal Rohr]

Didn't he sculpt them before they parted ways? 

 

Edit: Just did some research, he did the Infantry (in ZBrush!) apparently. Someone else did the tanks it looks like?

Edited April 28, 2023 by Marshal Rohr

[WolfLogic]

8 minutes ago, Petitioner's City said:

 

But the carnodon and aurox were from years after Edgar Skomorowski left FW in 2015, they actually were wonderful new additions from 2018.

I just wish I could understand the thinking behind GW making the Aurox Transport Capacity 10, instead of 12, making the Dracosan w/ Demolisher Cannon Transport Capacity 10, instead of 12, not including at least the Baneblade in the Liber Imperium, not having the Baneblade Chassis be AV 14 on at least the front and maybe the sides as well, making the demolisher cannon a 50pt upgrade, etc. 

 

 

[Brother Sutek]

I'd fix the current weapon profile and cost issues first of all. GW saved me quite a bit of money when they nerfed the draconian. It's a personal thing but I'd add Valkyrie, Vendetta and Vulture to the army list. I wouldn't add them to militia as we've been told they aren't elites although I would add chimera to that list. Making Leman Russ worth taking other than Vanquishers and plasma would be nice.

[Marshal Rohr]

Especially because the Militia Baneblade is Front AV 14. Having Solar Auxilia AVs at 13 is mind boggling in game with lots of thing that will slice right through AV 14. 

[WolfLogic]

Part of the problem is that the Solar Auxilia and Legiones Astartes share a lot of the same weapons. If you were to buff the Basilisk and Medusa, Legion players can take them as well. Same with the Battle Cannon since they have access to the Malcador. 

 

 

[Lord Marshal]

I think the big issue is that Solar Auxilia just lack their own versions of any of this edition's boogeymen (Dreadnoughts, Lascannon HWSS, Terminators, high WS melee). Although Exemplary Battles (or Panoptica, coughcough) might grace us with Imperial Army Dreadnoughts at some point since they do actually get referenced in the core rulebook.

 

Solar Auxilia do have some good options, it's just that the internal balance is so poor that it can feel like you're very much forced into them, which is especially notable when last edition said internal balance was actually very good (and what tended to be 'bad' was ironically quite good in Zone Mortalis). 

 

Companion Plasma spam and Vanquisher spam all backed up by Rifle Section spam will certainly do work, but it's expensive in terms of real-world money and does get pretty boring when it's what every single Solar Auxilia list is built around - even if somebody is 3D printing/third partying their Solar Auxilia, this tends to be what you see. What compounds this is that everything else is just... not very good. It's a lot easier for Marine players to run a 'fluffy but medium power' list, whereas SA it feels like all or nothing just because the list is simultaneously limited whilst being poorly balanced. 

 

Dracosans being knocked back down to their 1.0 points would be a big help by itself, since they're so woefully overcosted now but the only real way of getting 20-man's up the board. Hopefully with the Militia Baneblade being AV14 the Legacies document might get updated/recosted to account for them seemingly realising how bad they were/are. Having the Shadowsword reliably put holes into things for a reasonable price would be a big help. 

 

39 minutes ago, WolfLogic said:

Part of the problem is that the Solar Auxilia and Legiones Astartes share a lot of the same weapons. If you were to buff the Basilisk and Medusa, Legion players can take them as well. Same with the Battle Cannon since they have access to the Malcador. 

 

This is why I think any buff to artillery across the board would be a net-nerf to Solar Auxilia. Playing into AP4 artillery is horrific for Solar Auxilia, but mercifully with 9/10 games being Marine vs Marine the perception that "artillery is crap this edition except the Scorpius is kind of okay" has largely been keeping boards clear of it. As soon as somebody plonks a Scorpius or two down though, things get even nastier for SA fast.

 

2 hours ago, Marshal Rohr said:

Didn't he sculpt them before they parted ways? 

 

Edit: Just did some research, he did the Infantry (in ZBrush!) apparently. Someone else did the tanks it looks like?

 

Somebody else sculpted Jovian and the Medciaes as well, iirc?

 

Shame we'll never get his version of Ireton MaShade.

 

Edited April 28, 2023 by Lord Marshal

[Marshal Mittens]

It's hard to balance Solar Militia when a Bolter Bro Marine is 10pts, and a Lasgun Militia dude is 4pts.

 

You have only a little room to work with.

 

Ultimately, base marine bodies are probably too cheap for what they are, and so Solar Aux are too expensive, in comparison. 

 

Hard to balance. 

[Noserenda]

Itd be easy enough to have Legion Arty and Auxilla arty have different stats, i mean its not like this edition cares particularly about verisimilitude anyway? 

But thats what id do, give armour and artillery some teeth back so you arent compelled to field huge numbers of expensive infantry, something FW used to be very conscious of which is why all their resin infantry were better and more expensive than their codex counterparts to soften the blow somewhat.

Trying to justify bad balance with "its fluffy" is just even worse games design trying to cover bad games design frankly and trying to pull that needs a slap upside the head.

[Marshal Rohr]

No one is particularly happy with the 'It's Fluffy' situation, but they have so clearly tiered the factions to reflect the lore pointing it out is salient. I agree that Battle Cannons, Earthshakers, and Medusa should go to AP 3. However, I can understand not have Medusa Spam at AP 2 wiping out everyone's three hundred dollars of Terminators, Spartan, and Resin Character turn one.  

[WolfLogic]

1 hour ago, Noserenda said:

Itd be easy enough to have Legion Arty and Auxilla arty have different stats, i mean its not like this edition cares particularly about verisimilitude anyway? 

I think the easier solution would be to make a few retcons to try and distance the wargear Solar Aux and the Legions use from each other. 

Make it so the Legions either stopped using the Basilisk, Medusa, and Malcador long before the Heresy and so that they don’t have any left in their armories. 

 

It really wouldn’t be that big of a deal IMO. 

[Lord Marshal]

1 hour ago, Marshal Rohr said:

No one is particularly happy with the 'It's Fluffy' situation, but they have so clearly tiered the factions to reflect the lore pointing it out is salient. I agree that Battle Cannons, Earthshakers, and Medusa should go to AP 3. However, I can understand not have Medusa Spam at AP 2 wiping out everyone's three hundred dollars of Terminators, Spartan, and Resin Character turn one.  

 

Not sure I agree with this. Militia is looking stronger than SA just by virtue of options and being written with a post-launch world in mind (EG Baneblades), despite being at the absolute bottom lorewise. Custodes are still in great shape, but Legiones can easily run superior lists to them. Questoris Knight lists don't tend to do well into anybody unless they spam Armigers.

 

It feels more like a coincidence than intentional, specifically a coincidence based on how many 'Monstrous Creature'-esq statlines you can bring, which is why I expect Ruinstorm will be... interesting. I can't ever imagine Forge World coming out and saying "well we deliberately wrote every list after Custodes to be worse than the other".

 

That being said, I'm happy we're living in a relatively artillery-free edition. There's nothing more boring than half a game consisting of both players arranging pie plates in-between trying to hide said batteries. I'd rather see infantry swarms than the return of "don't bother because everyone will spam Phosphex anyway."

 

Edited April 28, 2023 by Lord Marshal

[WolfLogic]

1 minute ago, Lord Marshal said:

There's nothing more boring than half a game consisting of both players arranging pie plates

This is exactly why I don’t take 10-man Plasma Cannon Heavy Support Squads. I find it rude to expect my opponent to wait for me to do 10 scatter rolls, “argue” over how many models are covered by the pie plate, then I might get to do it all again next turn. Sounds like a good way to have people not want to play you tbh.