“Fixing” the Fall of Horus in False Gods

[b1soul]

It seems the primary motivation boiled down to...

• Horus was resentful that the Emperor kept him in the dark about His Great Work
• The false Sejanus showed him visions of the Emperor as a tyrant pursuing godhood who would later discard the primarchs like obsolete tools...and as a hypocrite who exploited the innocent, peaceful Warp Gods and hobbled mankind’s understanding of the Warp in His megalomania
• BUT Horus had enough wits about him to suspect that this was a Chaos mouthpiece, not actually Sejanus or the soul of Sejanus trying to help him out of pure motivations

So a good chunk of readers felt Horus’ fall was not that...believable, as portrayed in the book

 

How would you try to strengthen the motivations, or do you think it is fine as it is? Personally, I feel Chaos could have dialed back the overtly manipulative tactics with false Sejanus and his smear campaign against Big E as it is just...a bit too on the nose. It could have started with the Interex (and stretched across multiple novels to set up the star legion and primarch properly)...

 

 

For the first time, Horus experiences a human culture able to resist the temptations of the Warp through education, not ignorance...and coexist with xenos through respect and cooperation, not domination or genocide. This plant’s a seed of doubt in Horus, and Horus thinks about discussing these possibilities with the Emperor, perhaps the Imperium’s current way is not the only way, but he feels trepidation.

Later Horus is still wounded by Temba, but Chaos is less long-winded. It presents him with a choice between Life and Death. Die of thirst in the desert and your story ends here, the Lion or Guilliman may succeed you and the Imperium moves on after some mourning

...or drink from the cup of life and continue your greatness.

Horus contemplates the risk and choosing death, but ultimately believes in his own strength to overcome any Warp taint, and feels a powerful desire to have the Interex affair serve as a learning moment for all mankind, to take something good out of a tragedy he always deeply regretted. If he’s dead, he can’t do that. He’ll just be another tragedy.

Horus rises from the grave. He feels as vigourous as ever, and thinks about just carrying on as before, no need to rock the boat, and if he feels any attempted manipulation by Warp powers, he’ll quash it with his force of will. But he knows that he is more than just a blindly obedient tool of the Emperor. He is his first-found son and his partner in the building of the Imperium.

 

He resolves to commune with the Emperor on the merits of a more "enlightened" policy toward humanity's understanding of the Warp (with a focus on greater understanding, not greater use) and a more tolerant attitude toward intelligent xenos. Horus returns to Terra and tries, unsuccessfully, to avoid an argument with Malcador, who thinks Horus is being incredibly naive. The Emperor is obviously very busy, but psychically intervenes...in essence, He comes down  with an explained (but very firm) +NO+

 

Horus was right to destroy the Interex: they were wayward. Their way would have eventually ended in disaster. Chaos plays the long game better than any human society seeking to master it through psychic power...or something as outwardly harmless as educational policy. The mentality of genuine alliance or friendship with xenos...is folly in the making. In the long-run, under stress, they will fracture: we are not them and they are not us. The natural relationship is competitive, not cooperative. Humanity must stand alone against these forces, and the Great Work can only succeed if we protect humanity from truth too dangerous to divulge...for now, and if humanity dominates and destroys the xenos and enforces compliance upon wayward human cultures. 

 

The Emperor then instructs Horus to heed also Malcador in these matters, as He must focus on the Great Work. This was intended to be helpful to both Malcador and Horus, but makes Horus doubt whether he was ever as close to the Emperor as he thought. The Sons of Horus run into another proud but tolerant human culture in which Horus sees shades of the Interex. Compliance, once again, results in bloodshed, though not as much this time. Horus is utterly sick to his stomach.

 

I think this is where Lorgar and the Word Bearers would ramp up their influence of Horus. They worship the Chaos Gods, but present themselves as those who believe it is not only possible to resist the dangers of the Warp through enlightenment, but it is possible to truly "coexist" with the Warp through true enlightenment. There is no need to destroy or brainwash xenos or human cultures because they have divergent views of the Warp, especially if those divergent views are able to produce healthy, functional societies. The Imperium should be leading a galaxy-wide cooperative (not genocidal) effort to understand the Warp. Military force should be reserved for innately violent, truly sadistic or power-drunk species, not for those who simply have a different point of view. 

 

Why does the Emperor persist with what he does? The Emperor is bent on starving the Warp and dominating it. In his singular, unrivaled power over the material realm, He cannot think outside a zero-sum game. The Emperor has become more authoritarian over time and there needs to be an intervention. The Word Bearers and the Sons of Horus are brothers. Lorgar and Horus are brothers. They will teach Horus and his legion how to use the power of the Warp, so that Horus can treat with the Emperor as a true equal and make him see reason.

Edited May 1, 2023 by b1soul

[wecanhaveallthree]

For my money, I think False Gods builds remarkably well on Rising, and Horus' fall is perfectly well-established and written.

 

Horus in Rising has been battered down by the stresses of being Warmaster, a (nearly?) impossible task. His first real look at the administrative side of things really has put his teeth on edge: he's seeing newly-compliant worlds not brought up off their knees to be partners in the bounty of the Imperium, but driven down into the mud by what he sees as a cruel and unnecessary burden of tithes. Not being aware of the Webway Project and the true reason for this heavy taxation regime, his conclusion is reasonable: either the Emperor has lost sight of the goals of the Great Crusade and is allowing this to happen through neglect or the overweening creatures of the Council of Terra, or far worse, the Emperor has become a true despot and is forcing these worlds into desperate rebellion for his own glorification.

 

Having seen the end result of the xenophobic policies of the Crusade with his failures with the Interex, with so very much on his mind, Horus is already resolved to confront the Emperor - not in a full-blown Heresy, but certainly with a great deal of unhappiness - by the end of Rising.

 

This is incredibly important and what people miss a lot of the time. Horus is already on the edge at this point. He's unhappy. He's upset. He's far from home, far from his brothers, and being quite deliberately isolated from the support network that's so very important to him. Horus' greatest strength was in how he could seemingly bring the best out of his fellow Primarchs, and how they could be open and honest with him in return (for the most part). If Horus had been able to ask for help - if he'd had Sanguinius or Dorn or anybody else decide to just 'drop by', as they did for him in Rising, for literally no other reason than to help their brother out even before he could, or needed to, ask - he'd never have been so 'manic' by False Gods.

 

When we pick up with False Gods, we have a Horus whose doubts have plagued him constantly since, aided very effectively by the corrupt counsel of Erebus who has cut him off from even his beloved and much-needed Mournival. Heavy is the head that wears the crown, and Horus is really feeling it here. Davin is the last straw. A world he personally oversaw the conquest and embrace of, with a commander he hand-picked to be loyal, has rebelled because of Terra's far-off and far-reaching policies. It's a personal attack on Horus, and he's already not dealing with things well. He runs off to see it for himself - to see what went so wrong - and it reaffirms his resolve to confront the Emperor.

 

Something, again, very important is that Horus' encounter with Erebus in the dream is not the Warmaster being hilariously hoodwinked. He knows something is off. He collars Erebus later on and tells him he sees through it. He knows better. The 'visions' he's shown aren't just out of nowhere: they're designed wholly to prey on Horus' insecurities, things he already suspects. He doesn't take them as a given. They simply crystalise his fears. Being forgotten - being obscured - being simply a pawn, a small piece or a single move in a larger game. Horus' vision of the Emperor's 'abandonment' of the Primarchs is what breaks him. He can deal with being forgotten, to have no statues, to win no future glory, but he was already teetering on how much the Emperor cared for his 'sons' and what the Emperor was building power and resources at Terra for.

 

Chaos suggests the obvious. That the Emperor callously allowed the Primarchs to suffer, some extremely badly, as just another move in the game. That the Emperor doesn't care about them, or humanity, and that his goals are inscrutable - even divine - and will lead to enormous suffering for the people he's supposed to be uplifting.

 

Horus' 'fall' is in finding allies to help him dethrone a god-seeking tyrant. His resolve is hardened. He himself is sterner, fiercer because the Emperor's lies have poisoned many and if he's going to strike at the head of the snake, he can't afford to miss, or pull his knockout blow. At stake are the innumerable souls of humanity across the Imperium. Though it might hurt Horus to betray, to deceive, to kill otherwise brave and loyal people, there is no other choice.

 

He himself says it best in his moment of doubt in Wolfsbane. The Emperor is a bloody tyrant. But Lupercal has become worse. He never wanted it to be this way. He wanted to be a hero, a liberator, and instead ushered in the slaughter and madness he sought to prevent.

[b1soul]

I would've just liked to spend more time with Horus and his legion as his faith is shaken and Chaos (and just personal ego and rebellion) worm its way into him. Less Battle of the Abyss and Nemesis...more character study of Horus and his legion, a longer opening arc for Horus and his legion please. But this probably came down to BL at the outset intending the HH series to be much shorter than what it ballooned into.

 

The Interex are a great concept and they should def be a psychological shake-up for Horus imo, but would've liked the slide into Chaos to have started with Davin and then progress insidiously over the course of maybe an extra book or two (all by Abnett and with Horus as the main character), rather than culminate with Davin and we move on to Isstvan. Def some retro wish-listing on my part, but really do think this would need one authour to slam-dunk this, like Wraight with his Scars.

[wecanhaveallthree]

I disagree, obviously, because I'm a disagreeable sort. 

 

Horus is one of twenty(ish) Primarchs. He's the leader of his side, but not the only member, not even the most popular member. I do agree that he was sidelined for too long and had too little 'what's Horus up to now', but books like Fear To Tread especially show us Horus wrangling not only his various cats but keeping the forces of Chaos in line, too. He got enough, and the Shattered Legions subplot with Marr was solid for the Sons of Horus. I don't think they needed a 'longer opening', though. Horus' motivations and rebellion are laid out clearly and succinctly, we know where he's going and what he's doing. We don't need several volumes of The Start and The Birth. I was quite happy to switch to other characters, different viewpoints, even different perspectives of events like the Dropsite Massacre as we see in several of the opening novels. 

 

Horus' 'slide' into Chaos doesn't really happen until Vengeful Spirit. I think that's something people forget as well: Horus is giving Chaos the side-eye from day one. They're allies of convenience at absolute best. He's willing to accept some level of sorcery and occultism, but he's doing it largely on his terms. What the other Legions do - so long as they keep following orders - is mostly up to them, though Horus obviously despairs that he got all the wizards and personality-problems. Davin isn't Horus 'falling' (except in the sense that he died there, and is being kept alive by the Pantheon), it's him coming to a pretty reasonable conclusion that things aren't going to change by sitting down and having a frank discussion with dad. The rot goes too deep, and if he doesn't make a direct, overwhelming move he's going to go the way of his lost brothers. 

 

But it wears on a man. That's why when we get to Vengeful Spirit, Horus is explicitly losing it. Chaos has been working him over the entire time. The pressures of the war and rebellion are getting to him. He's got a bunch of muppets to keep in line. He's been led by the nose to Moloch, and this is where he does 'fall' - or, rather, is properly invested with the power of Chaos. Horus died on Davin, but this is where he really loses his soul, and we don't see him again until briefly in Wolfsbane, and then for the last time in Slaves to Darkness, grimly resolved to die rather than be a puppet of the Ruinous Powers again before having the choice taken away entirely.

 

Horus' complete 'arc' over the series is generally pretty good.

 

'But wechat,' you say, 'What about Abnett showing that Horus was just pretending to be a soulless vessel for the Pantheon after having his soul/personality/whatever literally destroyed in the shadow realm by an athame? How does that figure into your consideration of his arc?'

 

UM, SORRY, GOTTA GO.

[Krelious]

I think Horus' fall is very simply  a matter of pride, If he rejects the dark gods then he will die so he has to psychologically justify something in order to accept their offer and heal him.

 

I mean lets say Horus says no, im not trusting these visions of yours while im in a fever dream death bed, Magnus is right, im going to wake up and go straight to Terra to sort this out with my father. If Horus did that the Chaos gods would just let him die and I think that is the fear of being forgotten that manifests in the dream. Its basically a choice of slavery or death.

 

Horus could not accept that Eugene Temba killed him, he could not accept that some lower being defeated him and his death would be ignoble and unglamorous so he got the best death he could have ever hoped for in the end and would be remembered forever. 

[Ubiquitous1984]

I'm really hoping that Mcneill's Horus Primarch novel (not officially confirmed by BL, but the author said he is writing a Primarch novel, and there is only one left...) is set just after Horus Rising, and helps to smooth over some of the jarring disconnect between the two depictions.