Guilliman's new datasheet

[Captain Idaho]

WarCom have given us a taste of Guilliman's datasheet (as well as the Land Raider) and he looks great! Very thematic and pretty powerful.

 

Obviously we can't be sure on context but I'm happy with what I've seen here:

 

 

Things that leap out at me is the T9. Even meltas will struggle to wound him. Bolters will need 6s!

 

His Invulnerable save has gone down, but 3+ is obnoxious. I just wish I could make 4+ saves...

 

Obvious questions to answer - is there a core rule limit on melee attacks/weapons? As using both at the same time might be obscene and a potential 41st millennium warcrime!

 

Overall I like him, think he's flexible and will break some hearts with a 2nd Oath of Moment attack, especially in a Terminator heavy list.

[Tacitus]

He doesn't have enough shots.  14 Sword Attacks even if you can't use the Hand in addition is too many.  I noticed similar on the Screamer Killer.  This is looking more and more like a Hero Hammer flavored edition.

 

Its interesting you have to pick one of his special rules each turn.  

[Captain Idaho]

Yeah I'm never a fan of massed attacks like that. But still, in comparison, least he's got the performance.

[Subtleknife]

Overall I'm happy....but we haven't really got anything to compare it against. I think this GMan feels more flavourful with his best general shtick. I still don't feel like they have captured the feel of the emperors sword. It should be going through invuns etc  

 

I also really don't like the attacks being in the weapon for melee.

[Tokugawa]

Could him attack with all melee weapons at max attacks?

[ArielRSA]

Hook it directly into my veins!

[ZeroWolf]

I quite like his rules this time round, not that I'm sure he even got 9th edition rules? There was a datasheet in Imperium but they may have been from 8th...

 

Anyway, regarding attacks, unless GW say otherwise, I'm assuming it'll work like AoS and you get to attack with everything. If this is the case, expect all equivalent characters to do the same...Angron will be terrifying. Quite funny mind, I remember some of the early 10th rumours talking about it going the way of Hero hammer, using the Xmas boxsets as sort of evidence. Makes me think back to what I heard people say about 2nd edition.

[Captain Idaho]

1 hour ago, Subtleknife said:

Overall I'm happy....but we haven't really got anything to compare it against. I think this GMan feels more flavourful with his best general shtick. I still don't feel like they have captured the feel of the emperors sword. It should be going through invuns etc  

 

I also really don't like the attacks being in the weapon for melee.

 

Yeah I would like the Emperor's Sword to be much more unique, like S5 AP-1 but with Devastating Wounds on a 3+ or something. So it is like a Mortal Wounds generator.

 

Anyway, in some ways we have got stuff to compare Guilliman to. We have Rhino, Land Raider and Screamer-Killer stats, as well as Terminators. We also have stats for various weapons such as melta and bolter.

 

So he's definitely up there in quality I feel from what we've seen. He can nuke a Screamer-Killer fairly handily, whilst having sufficient toughness that even a Multi-melta Wounds on a 4+.

 

T9 means power Fists will struggle also (mostly being S8) and the ubiquitous S4 across the game will only graze him.

 

I feel good about his stats. The real question is will there be a massive arms race and we'll see other top tier models even more powerful?

[mertbl]

This profile looks much more like a primarch than the current version. A buddy said in AoS you can attack with every melee weapon a model is equipped with, so he could be very lethal. 

 

It'll be interesting to see a generic captain to compare and contrast. If your generic marine captain has 10+ melee attacks it waters him down substantially. Hopefully they'll stick in the 6-7 attack range and keep the primarchs as a standout. 

[Cryptshadow]

31 minutes ago, mertbl said:

This profile looks much more like a primarch than the current version. A buddy said in AoS you can attack with every melee weapon a model is equipped with, so he could be very lethal. 

 

It'll be interesting to see a generic captain to compare and contrast. If your generic marine captain has 10+ melee attacks it waters him down substantially. Hopefully they'll stick in the 6-7 attack range and keep the primarchs as a standout. 

agree, on the attacks thing a credible..source that basically tested 10th has said only 1 weapon profile unless it has the extra attacks keyword, unsure if extra attacks was the keyword.

[ArielRSA]

Is Master of Battle strictly better than the other two author of the codex abilities?

 

The other two seem a lot more situational while you should be able to kill a unit to get OoM twice every turn

[Tacitus]

11 hours ago, Captain Idaho said:

 

Yeah I would like the Emperor's Sword to be much more unique, like S5 AP-1 but with Devastating Wounds on a 3+ or something. So it is like a Mortal Wounds generator.

 

Anyway, in some ways we have got stuff to compare Guilliman to. We have Rhino, Land Raider and Screamer-Killer stats, as well as Terminators. We also have stats for various weapons such as melta and bolter.

 

So he's definitely up there in quality I feel from what we've seen. He can nuke a Screamer-Killer fairly handily, whilst having sufficient toughness that even a Multi-melta Wounds on a 4+.

 

T9 means power Fists will struggle also (mostly being S8) and the ubiquitous S4 across the game will only graze him.

 

I feel good about his stats. The real question is will there be a massive arms race and we'll see other top tier models even more powerful?

I think they're pushing us out of MSU, but the counter to big units will be the Monsters/Big Boys.  I'm looking forward to seeing a Redemptor Fist/etc stat-line.

[Tacitus]

24 minutes ago, ArielRSA said:

Is Master of Battle strictly better than the other two author of the codex abilities?

 

The other two seem a lot more situational while you should be able to kill a unit to get OoM twice every turn

Don't base that off of 9th shooting results.  A lot of your units will no longer have CM/LT buffs, a lot of your units will have fewer shots/per/model - Aggressors now have one twin linked gun fist vs twice the slightly less optimal shots - I think it carried over to Redemptor chest storm bolters, and various tanks with turrets/sponsons.  Land Raiders, Razorbacks, Gladiators, and so on.

[Captain Idaho]

1 hour ago, ArielRSA said:

Is Master of Battle strictly better than the other two author of the codex abilities?

 

The other two seem a lot more situational while you should be able to kill a unit to get OoM twice every turn

 

I thought similar. Depends on the Strategums really. Master of Battle looks amazing, but Supreme Strategist could save us sooooo many Command Points at a time where they're harder to come by.

[Tacitus]

9 hours ago, Captain Idaho said:

 

I thought similar. Depends on the Strategums really. Master of Battle looks amazing, but Supreme Strategist could save us sooooo many Command Points at a time where they're harder to come by.

Yeah its going to be hard to answer the original question without knowing what the strats are. 

 

Or how many units are in your army.  The units you used shooting up the first enemy don't get to shoot again, so you have to have enough left to make it worthwhile.   If they do get us taking full 10's again you're going to have fewer units

[Sea Creature]

He certainly feels more like Papa Smurf again. 

[Captain Idaho]

I've never liked how good leadership was distilled into rerolls and this feels so much more fluffy. The theme is more pronounced which I take as a good thing.

 

The more I think about it, the more I consider GW knocked it out the park for his command abilities. His weapons are cool and powerful, though would be nice for the Emperor's Sword to do something slightly different. But it still causes mortals at least.

[Sea Creature]

It’d be nice if he can fight with both.

[Karhedron]

Is it just me or is Roboute no longer UM specific? Looking at his rules, it looks like he can buff any Astartes units. If that is the case, I can see my Space Wolves running "counts as Guilliman".

 

[Tacitus]

He's still got faction keywords, and supposedly Soup isn't possible.  While I hope they create a "Crusading Marine Force" subfaction to represent a soup - i.e. replace all Faction Keywords with <Soup> and the faction/det abilities are <crackers> and <croutons> instead of Oath and Doctrines or whatever.   But I'd expect that to also exclude nameds which are still "locked" because they're not going to allow mix-and-match soup with BA Assault Marines, DA Terminators, Space Wolf Tacticals, and UM Chapter Masters etc. 

[Captain Idaho]

Indeed I noticed that too. Future proofing perhaps, but interestingly he does still have the Ultramarines keyword as well.

 

I suppose it depends on army construction, which we don't seem to know much about really. If the Codex allows any unit be selected regardless of keywords of subfaction, I think Guilliman can make it into any list.

 

Be interesting to see if people make proxies, or even use HH Primarchs to represent him on the table. Or conversions. A converted battle suit with heavy bionics could represent an Iron Hands Guilliman, for example.

[Captain Idaho]

So we have an Abaddon as comparison to Guilliman, posted here for reference:

 

 

Immediately my thoughts are Guilliman is much better. A full head and shoulders above the upstart wannabe Primarch in fact. I also feel Guilliman is superior to the Swarmlord, but the comparison is more astute with a directly comparable model from the last edition.

 

My first focus is on theme and feel, which I consider Guilliman wins handsomely. His leadership abilities are well represented and interesting, rather than just a "extend Invulnerable save" like some sort of Mekboy.

 

Defensively a higher toughness is very impressive, with things like power Fists struggling to wound Guilliman at all, whilst being quite easily capable of damaging Abaddon. 

 

Offensively they have the same sort of weapons but Guilliman's are just that little bit more powerful.

 

Overall, with the Swarmlord and Abaddon being good indication of the other factions, Guilliman is looking like he's really in a strong position.

[Sea Creature]

No more wounds cap for Abbadon, that’s huge.

[mertbl]

4 hours ago, Sea Creature said:

No more wounds cap for Abbadon, that’s huge.

It is except you'll probably bury him in a big block of termis and he'll still be a pain to dig out. 

[Karhedron]

28 minutes ago, mertbl said:

It is except you'll probably bury him in a big block of termis and he'll still be a pain to dig out. 

 

That is Abaddon's big advantage. Chewing through 30 T5 wounds behind a 2+/4++ just to get to him is going to be a pain (although OOM will help).