Guilliman's new datasheet

[mertbl]

40 minutes ago, Karhedron said:

 

That is Abaddon's big advantage. Chewing through 30 T5 wounds behind a 2+/4++ just to get to him is going to be a pain (although OOM will help).

 

Hopefully they really salt the wounds and chaos termis are still T4. 

[Tacitus]

12 hours ago, Captain Idaho said:

So we have an Abaddon as comparison to Guilliman, posted here for reference:

 

 

Immediately my thoughts are Guilliman is much better. A full head and shoulders above the upstart wannabe Primarch in fact. I also feel Guilliman is superior to the Swarmlord, but the comparison is more astute with a directly comparable model from the last edition.

 

My first focus is on theme and feel, which I consider Guilliman wins handsomely. His leadership abilities are well represented and interesting, rather than just a "extend Invulnerable save" like some sort of Mekboy.

 

Defensively a higher toughness is very impressive, with things like power Fists struggling to wound Guilliman at all, whilst being quite easily capable of damaging Abaddon. 

 

Offensively they have the same sort of weapons but Guilliman's are just that little bit more powerful.

 

Overall, with the Swarmlord and Abaddon being good indication of the other factions, Guilliman is looking like he's really in a strong position.

My big takeaways are:

A) Abby also has the "Here's 3, and pick one" system.  Is that going to be Supreme Commander types only or most/all HQ character types?

B) After mirroring UM for years and years, he's now got an Azrael ability.  I know you called it Mekboy, but I see the Lion Helm

[Tokugawa]

17 hours ago, Karhedron said:

Is it just me or is Roboute no longer UM specific? Looking at his rules, it looks like he can buff any Astartes units. If that is the case, I can see my Space Wolves running "counts as Guilliman".

 

You always have freedom to use SW themed models for codex marines list, but high probably that rules set can't contain units like wulfen and TWC.

[Tacitus]

They tried to take that away recently though - it didn't work but they tried.  I also suspect they're only really interested in making sure people can't mix and match things like Calgar is now a Death Company Chapter Master with Power Fists Get Double Attacks and deal Mortal Wounds special rules for example.

[CCE1981]

We just found out today that unless you have a weapon with the [Extra Attacks] keyword you can only use one weapon in melee.

[Captain Idaho]

Was just about to post similar 

 

Makes sense as otherwise the sheer amount of damage output from both the Emperor's Sword and Hand of Dominion would break the game.

[CCE1981]

I am personally waiting on points values to determine the state of the game.  Some of the potential damage is a bit crazy.  I also am stating to think that the heavy weapons should lose number of shots and damage go up.  That Volcano Canon should not be an anti unit weapon.  Kinda the same thing with the Lemon Russ Battle Canon, unless Marines are cheap that thing will wipe squads.

[Karhedron]

1 hour ago, CCE1981 said:

Kinda the same thing with the Lemon Russ Battle Canon, unless Marines are cheap that thing will wipe squads.

 

With the AP going to down to just -1, you are looking at an average of 6 shots, 3 hits, 2.5 wounds and 1.25 failed saves. Obviously Guard will have bonuses like orders available but the LRBC looks like a decent TAC weapon and not particularly like a Marine-hose.

[Tokugawa]

13 minutes ago, Karhedron said:

 

With the AP going to down to just -1, you are looking at an average of 6 shots, 3 hits, 2.5 wounds and 1.25 failed saves. Obviously Guard will have bonuses like orders available but the LRBC looks like a decent TAC weapon and not particularly like a Marine-hose.

IG could switch to demolisher cannons, just like their 8th old days.

[Sea Creature]

I wouldn’t be surprised and the lack of range is not a big deal in my opinion.

[Captain Idaho]

Going back to Guilliman's datasheet, I was thinking with the double Oath of Moment, that plays well to weapons that provide a lot of hits and stuff like Heavy Bolters become really powerful for their damage 2.

 

However, vehicles having such high toughness stats... it'll definitely be lascannons for that role. Multiple of them.

 

So packs of Centurions and Devastator squads for Guilliman's bodyguards?

[Subtleknife]

It's a shame it looks like he can't deepstrike and I imagine a drop pod will be out of the question. 

[Captain Idaho]

Very unlikely. Who knows, maybe a Storm Raven can hold him in the harness like a Dreadnought 

 

He is movement 8" mind. That helps get him up the table, especially with advance.

 

Would be nice to see him come out of a Land Raider, though I'm sure he'd count as 4 models or even 5.

[Sea Creature]

To the best of my knowledge he’s never been able to deep strike, so we aren’t losing anything.

[Cruor Vault]

14 hours ago, Captain Idaho said:

Going back to Guilliman's datasheet, I was thinking with the double Oath of Moment, that plays well to weapons that provide a lot of hits and stuff like Heavy Bolters become really powerful for their damage 2.

 

However, vehicles having such high toughness stats... it'll definitely be lascannons for that role. Multiple of them.

 

So packs of Centurions and Devastator squads for Guilliman's bodyguards?

 

Re-rolls with Sustained hits can also be something interesting! Gives HB something to make them unique again.

[Tacitus]

On 5/10/2023 at 2:24 AM, Captain Idaho said:

Going back to Guilliman's datasheet, I was thinking with the double Oath of Moment, that plays well to weapons that provide a lot of hits and stuff like Heavy Bolters become really powerful for their damage 2.

 

However, vehicles having such high toughness stats... it'll definitely be lascannons for that role. Multiple of them.

 

So packs of Centurions and Devastator squads for Guilliman's bodyguards?

Cents will definitely "improve" with the death of CORE. 

 

I'm not sure Double Up on Oath of Moment is going to be all that and a bag of chips.  I can see it being useful - but I also see Primarch of the XIII pulling above its weight vs Daemons etc.  AND we haven't seen the Strats yet.  Double One Strat could be the workhorse. 

16 hours ago, Sea Creature said:

To the best of my knowledge he’s never been able to deep strike, so we aren’t losing anything.

 

Not on the table top - and the fiction putting 10 foot tall giants in a Land Raider is now fairly ridiculous, but yeah he should be able to hook onto the Storm Raven (which I think has potential to be de rigueur in early meta especially if they allow Redemptor chassis as part of the Primaris keyword smudging) - and the one that's always repeatedly punched my OCD button is Apothecaries couldn't heal him. 

 

Anyway to add some depth to the Storm Raven thing - My impression so far is that the Objective Securers (what used to be troops) will be difficult to displace with other Formerly-Known-As-Troops.  You need something to push them off first - G or Abby with his Ginsu sword, a Redemptor with the giant rotary cannon and dread fist, and so on.  Fly up, Twin Assault Cannon the troops, Twin Melta their transport, drop off 10 Tacticals, and profit.   You don't even need the Termies - tho they're still one of the transports that can.   I'm expecting a change to Drop Pods too - probably some limitation to Drop Pod Assault to prevent the carbon copy turn 1 of:  I go first, and drop four pods of 10 intercessors on the two midfields, and as close as possible to your two objectives thing. 

[mertbl]

I know it's a different game but all the primarchs fit in spartans in 30k. Has the chassis gotten that much smaller in 10k years? 

[Tacitus]

12 hours ago, mertbl said:

I know it's a different game but all the primarchs fit in spartans in 30k. Has the chassis gotten that much smaller in 10k years? 

Nah the Primarchs got that much bigger.  Remember: Guilliman, Johnson and Curze played a game of catch with a Land Raider on Macragge.  If I remember right, Russ liked to ride on top of one and howl like he was a Teen Wolf. 

[Karhedron]

Perturabo had a customised Baneblade as his command tank IIRC. Guilliman rides in a tank near the end of Plague War where he heads out to face Mortarion but I forget what it was.

[Tacitus]

17 hours ago, Karhedron said:

Perturabo had a customised Baneblade as his command tank IIRC. Guilliman rides in a tank near the end of Plague War where he heads out to face Mortarion but I forget what it was.

Customized.  Abby was so big they had to customize his Terminator Armor, and a Baneblade has that Troop Deck and is even larger than a Land Raider at about 18 feet tall. 

[Karhedron]

22 hours ago, Karhedron said:

Guilliman rides in a tank near the end of Plague War where he heads out to face Mortarion but I forget what it was.

 

It was a Leviathan, one of the old Epic scale command vehicles. That should be large enough, even for a Primarch.

 

[Captain Idaho]

Might be a little impractical for 40K!

 

Personally I've never found a lack of transport to be that much of a problem for Guilliman. That extra 2" movement makes a difference generally.

[Captain Idaho]

For those who've read the core rules leak, we can confirm it's a case of choosing the melee weapon profile. Guilliman is therefore not broken on that basis alone!

 

Also, with Epic Challenge Strategum, Guilliman can blat a character hiding in a unit if necessary!

 

What's that Abaddon, you're safely ensconced within a Terminator squad and think you can gang up on Guilliman? Bam! Epic Challenge.

Edited May 17, 2023 by Captain Idaho

[Captain Idaho]

So the cogs are turning and I'm already seeing some sneaky ploys to use with Guilliman.

 

If he uses his decent movement of 8" to ensure he hits the side of a unit, utilising a friendly unit to get into base to base contact with as many enemy models as possible to reduce the prospect of them piling in on Guilliman to gang up on him, you can utilise Epic Duel to pick on enemy characters attached as leadera to kill them with relative impunity.

[Subtleknife]

He is definitely a bit of a murder muffin old Gman in tenth. I like it.