Anyone going to Heresy with mini-marines? (new Epic HH game)

[Pacific81]

Hey folks - wasn't too sure where to put this thread, hope this is OK.

 

With the news/rumours of a new Epic release (which, I think, was all but spelt out at Warhammer Fest) is anyone here planning to get into the game if a new Heresy-era Epic set is released?

 

I have a fairly sizeable Epic collection already, but am looking forward to some new official plastics and also (perhaps most importantly) the extra players into the Epic community that it will bring. Will be interesting to see what ruleset they go for, as Epic has had so many, which all give a different playing experience. I have read rumours of everything from it being Jervis Johnson's last game before he retired, to the writer being a big Space Marine 2nd-ed fan, and the game closely resembling that!

 

So just wondered what people's thoughts were and you would jump in to mass scale battle? Did you play back in the day (perhaps still do), or are you a youngling intrigued by the concept?

 

Will leave it with an image from where it all started! :)

 

[Irongert]

Yes, I will. I have missed Epic for many a year. I know it never really went away but sadly enough the group I play with tends to stick to stuff that is "current" as it were. Aside form which, I used to have Eldar, which isn't that massively usefull for 30k  .

 

I'm planning to have at least 2 or 3 of the legions I play now in epic scale aswell. When Epic buggered off I jumped into Apoc but it just wasn't the same as epic. Fun in it's own way though but too much hassle and effort to organise. I love those big sweeping battles. I even have to admit when the rumors started to become serious I scrapped a lot of extra stuff I wanted to add to my current 30k armies. If there's epic then there's no need for my 28mm armies to be very expanded. Bigger battles with tank battalions etc don't have to be fought in that scale anymore and will be relegated to epic. I'm just glad I "waited"  with paiting my AT stuff so now I can match the legio to the legions I'll be collecting 

[Marshal Mittens]

Maybe. I have a lot on my plate right now, but tiny massed battles do spark joy. 

[Gorgoff]

I will play it uf the miniatures look good.

[apologist]

Extremely excited – Epic: Armageddon (E:A) is my favourite wargame, with genuine manoeuvre, workable tactics, alternating activiations and absolutely dripping with flavour. If the new version is indeed penned by Jervis (the author of E:A), I'll be delighted – recent updates of Blood Bowl, Space Hulk etc. have done a great job of refining a solid set of rules, rather than throwing out the baby with the bathwater.

 

A 2nd ed. Epic: Space Marine (SM2) has... less appeal, but I can't deny it did the best job of showing the scale of big conflicts, with whole columns of tanks marching in support of reinforced infantry companies.

 

While I would have preferred the variety offered in the 40k setting, the civil war of the Horus Heresy does have the benefit of less to balance.

 

Having fielded Ultramarines (see below) in previous iterations of the game, I'm a bit torn between expanding them, or trying something completely new.

 

A Captain leads a Tactical formation with Hunter AA support.

 

Scouts advance alongside two more mounted Tactical Formations.

 

Chaplain Highheart leads the Assault Squads.

 

... and a mix of eras for the Devastator formation here, from 1st ed. Space Marine (SM1) metals to E:A releases, plus third-party figures.

 

***

 

Since I think it very likely that the size of the infantry will be noticeably different to the models above, I'm sorely tempted to scratch a Salamanders itch; perhaps with an Isstvan V theme... A couple of my mates have also expressed an interest in picking up the game again, so here's hoping.

Edited May 5, 2023 by apologist

[Corswain]

Maybe.

 

I got into the hobby post-Epic (just) so there is no significant nostalgia for me. Budget is always a factor to consider and I am barely satisfied with some of my painting efforts at 28mm.

 

I can see the modelling appeal though - a serious chunk of Legion on display would be very cool. And if Titanicus and Aeronautica Imperialis scale well then I could easily see myself getting stuck into some dioramas.

 

Apologist's efforts above will not help my fragile resolve.

Edited May 5, 2023 by Corswain

[Noserenda]

Yeah Epic being limited to 30k is pretty damn disappointing, assuming they dont wreck it with a new edition its a great game though and our group has already flirted with 3d printing a bunch of marines for it more than once so im sure some will be on board. 

If nothing else we all have big old Titanicus collections to cross pollinate! 

[Pacific81]

@apologist - that stuff is just *chef's kiss* incredible! I definitely feel the same way about the rules. I love SM 2nd-ed (as you mention, it gives a great sense of scale and very cool with the sweeping movement of units), but I love the tactical elements of Armageddon. There is something very satisfying about watching someone that is good at that game at work, in a way that you don't tend to get with many games

I also think the more granular (less abstract) rules might suit the HH, and help to differentiate the legions and wargear. But, I would be happy with either. 

 

@Corswain - I will say I find Epic much, much easier to paint than 28mm, and definitely more forgiving. You will still get some mentalists that will try and free-hand 8mm marine belt-buckles, but for the most part a base coat, wash and drybrush is more than enough. One of the beauties of the system is you can get through lots of infantry and tanks quickly - I think I managed to finish an entire company of marines (95 marines + 10 transports) in about 2-3 hours, and I am not a fast painter by any measure.

 

@Noserenda - yes I think the 30k element will restrict it somewhat. My hope is that the ruleset will be close enough to an existing one that it will be easy to sub in NetEpic, Net Armageddon etc. and bring alien armies to the games.

[arnesh88]

1 hour ago, Noserenda said:

Yeah Epic being limited to 30k is pretty damn disappointing, assuming they dont wreck it with a new edition its a great game though and our group has already flirted with 3d printing a bunch of marines for it more than once so im sure some will be on board. 

If nothing else we all have big old Titanicus collections to cross pollinate! 

It may expand to 40k. Note that while Aeronautica Impirialis core rulebook is labeled as Horus Heresy, they eventually came out with Eldar, Ork, and Tau flyers. So, I wouldn't give up hope just yet.

[Lord Marshal]

8 minutes ago, arnesh88 said:

It may expand to 40k. Note that while Aeronautica Impirialis core rulebook is labeled as Horus Heresy, they eventually came out with Eldar, Ork, and Tau flyers. So, I wouldn't give up hope just yet.

 

Aeronautica started as 40k and then later covered the Horus Heresy. For some reason they just never sold a rulebook outside of their FOMO boxes until the Heresy book. Although that just amounted to giving Legion rules to the Adeptus Astartes list and copy/pasting the Imperial Navy list under Divisio Aeronautica. 

 

But yeah, if Epic ends up being a big success it's far from impossible they'll tackle 40k factions later. If it's a flop they can just push out the Marine factions and claim that's all they planned on covering. If it's somewhere in the middle, they might just keep it for the Heresy but include other era appropriate armies since anything Imperial can usually be assured to sell.

 

The only thing that makes me sceptical about Epic's success is that <15mm scale is the one thing where "3D printer go brr" could actually hurt them, as unless they do something crazy it's going to be far easier to imitate such small models than getting a 1:1 3D print replica of 28mm and higher. Of course, I'm sure it'll still do well. Selling you an adorable mini version of your Space Marine army is no doubt going to move a fair bit of stock.

 

 

Edited May 5, 2023 by Lord Marshal

[Pacific81]

I'd argue that the reason 3D printers have been so busy at small scale is exactly because there has been no official miniatures available. It's the same reason there successful proxy mini companies like Vanguard and Onslaught, and before you had tons (actually, still do) of companies making 'fantasy football' teams for Blood Bowl from the many years that game was not officially supported. There was still a desire for playing the game and collecting at that scale, and the only other way was paying the (now insane) eBay prices for originals.

 

I think a lot of people buying 3D prints of stuff would still like to get official minis if given the option, although hopefully the market is big enough to support official, proxy and 3D prints.

Edited May 5, 2023 by Pacific81

[Noserenda]

Yeah Aeronautica is a 40k game with a 30k supplement, Titanicus they seem to prefer dying to expanding out of 30k so im not holding out hope for epic :( 

3d printing and garage kits could definitely hurt an official epic, they are wellll established at this point compared to other games that still get GW support. The obvious counter is a robust release schedule from SG, whilst some people will always print their armies, you probably werent selling them more than rules anyway; most folks generally go to printers because they want something GW isnt (or cant be) offering. Make sure you get all the bases covered asap and thatll keep your sales up.

[Marshal Mittens]

I think the main draw will be that this is the only way for a normal hobbyist to put down a few companies of marines supported by titans and aircraft on a normal table. 

[GhostMalone]

Eventually I would like to, utilising my current project and just having the same force on a larger scale.

[Doghouse]

I'll probably take a look but unless the infantry are really nicely done I'll probably print my own. I'm hoping they will be proportional as a lot of epic scale infantry tends to be exaggerated dur to the tiny scale.

 

I honestly think this is the way the Heresy should be played but would have preferred 40k. I imagine they will be going for the nostalgia of the original Space Marine so be all MK6 armour. 

[Brother Sutek]

As long as I get my IG army I'll go along for the ride and try to build a playgroup in my area. If they don't have Orks or Eldar I will lose a bit of interest esp if its going to be all marines armies. Half the people I game with don't want all marine armies so hopefully they plan for that.

[Sherrypie]

On 5/5/2023 at 1:29 PM, apologist said:

Extremely excited – Epic: Armageddon (E:A) is my favourite wargame, with genuine manoeuvre, workable tactics, alternating activiations and absolutely dripping with flavour. If the new version is indeed penned by Jervis (the author of E:A), I'll be delighted – recent updates of Blood Bowl, Space Hulk etc. have done a great job of refining a solid set of rules, rather than throwing out the baby with the bathwater.

 

A 2nd ed. Epic: Space Marine (SM2) has... less appeal, but I can't deny it did the best job of showing the scale of big conflicts, with whole columns of tanks marching in support of reinforced infantry companies.

 

Every iteration of Epic has been penned by Jervis, starting from the very first AT in 1988. While Andy Chambers and others have had a big hand in contributing, especially during Epic: 40k, fundamentally they are all his babies. I'd argue that third edition was the best for properly huge armies, as the level of abstraction therein allowed for very flexible formations in large numbers to work with relative ease. Amusingly enough it's also the ruleset that Jervis has exalted for its design, but which the players at the time hated so he had to write Epic: Armageddon to suit their tastes :D

 

On 5/5/2023 at 5:09 PM, Lord Marshal said:

 

Aeronautica started as 40k and then later covered the Horus Heresy. For some reason they just never sold a rulebook outside of their FOMO boxes until the Heresy book. Although that just amounted to giving Legion rules to the Adeptus Astartes list and copy/pasting the Imperial Navy list under Divisio Aeronautica. 

 

 

They did and still do. Both Rynn's World and Taros Air War campaign books contain the full core rules.

 

As for the main topic, I'll undoubtedly end up buying some and trying it out. If it's good, it'll be another option among others and if it's not, it'll still be more nice minis for my E:A armies. Win win.

[Agramar_The_Luna_Wolf]

I don't know. In my case depends a lot of factors like money, what can be bring here by local shops and things like that.

And with the experience of Adeptus Titanicus on mind...hum, I'm unsure.

[Lord Marshal]

10 hours ago, Sherrypie said:

 

They did and still do. Both Rynn's World and Taros Air War campaign books contain the full core rules.

 

Those haven't been in print for good while unfortunately. At least they seem to be keeping the Heresy rulebook in production, probably in anticipation of people picking up Epic and potentially playing some games of it with their mini-Heresy collection.

 

 

 

Edited May 7, 2023 by Lord Marshal

[Gorgoff]

I'll wait and see.

Never acutally played epic. I read the battlereports in the White Dwarfs back in the day and played the PC game Final Liberation but that's it so I am open for whatever GW brings us. I was tempted to start with Titanicus though. In my area noone played it so I didn't as well but I do find it very interesting. 

[General Zodd]

One of the first games I got was 1st Ed Space Marine, which I was probably too young to really understand the rules for, but it fascinated me. I was thinking about getting the original AT to go with it when 2nd Ed Space Marine came out, and that was me and my playing group’s primary game system for years! Many happy memories, though playing Eldar primarily, I think I had the better deal of it!

 

Titan Legions was hugely fun, with all the management of the resources required of the Imperator and Mega-Gargants, something I immediately enjoyed seeing the DNA of in the new AT.

 

Then a bit of a dry spell until I started working part time for GW, my first task being taking the brand new Epic 40,000 rulebooks home and preparing to run demos on my first Saturday shift! Lots of people didn’t like the abstraction, but I saw what they were trying to do and admired it for what it was. Again, as a former Eldar player, where each tank had a page of special rules, I appreciated the slimming down!

 

Then Epic Armageddon, which most people seem to agree was the best set of rules overall, with a nice balance between the streamlining of Epic 40k and the detail of 2nd Ed SM.

 

So, when AT came out again in 2018 I jumped in with both feet, and still think it’s the best rule set GW have on the market currently, possibly ever. If you’re tempted in any way, do yourself a favour and try it, it’s ace. I’m not so sold on Aeronautica as a game, but the models are beautiful. If they nail the quality and range of models for the new Epic, I’ll be very hard pressed not to get all of it…

[Bung]

With the hands of Jervis Johnson in the Game i am hestiant. For me he was / is one of the worst Game Designers of the old guard GW employed. To mir ch Bad memories of the stuff he wrote in third / fourth Edition of 40k.

 

That said, there may be another Option.

When they published AT there was always the cry for Tanks and Infantry in AT and there are a few fanmade rules like AT+ which incorporated both and are another reason people print mini marines.

 

Maybe AT is rather on hold for some time we might see AT develop into a new Epic game and even include Aeronautica stuff.

 

Just one Rules Set including the Options to either play Titan and Aircraft only games.

 

That would streamline some of their stuff.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Sherrypie]

To be fair, personally Jervis always was at his best when he was designing games from ground-up rather than expanding on others' works. Epics, Blood Bowl and others are great works when they get to present a singular vision of a game that knows what it wants to be about. 40k has never been such a game and has predictably suffered from a lack of coherent vision ever since it began.

[Pacific81]

Yeah I think there is an element of the 'curse of 40k' that hands were tied with respect to the design of GWs flagship game. Remember when Andy Chambers wanted to re-build it from the ground up (I think 4th edition?) but was blocked from doing so? The great beast was already just lumbering on, even back then, and I can't imagine what it is like for the rules guys these days. 

 

All of Jervis' other games I think are some of the best and most fondly thought of ever to come from GW: Blood Bowl, Epic/AT, Necromunda, Space Hulk, amongst others. There is a good reason people played those games for years (and still do) long after they stopped production.

[Bung]

48 minutes ago, Pacific81 said:

Yeah I think there is an element of the 'curse of 40k' that hands were tied with respect to the design of GWs flagship game. Remember when Andy Chambers wanted to re-build it from the ground up (I think 4th edition?) but was blocked from doing so? The great beast was already just lumbering on, even back then, and I can't imagine what it is like for the rules guys these days. 

 

All of Jervis' other games I think are some of the best and most fondly thought of ever to come from GW: Blood Bowl, Epic/AT, Necromunda, Space Hulk, amongst others. There is a good reason people played those games for years (and still do) long after they stopped production.

 

Except for Blood Bowl the only old Specialist Game i have seen played over the years are Blood Bowl and Mordheim.

 

The new Necromunda was killed in my area by GW, when they released a new Edition after one year.

 

Even the last Space Hulk Edition struggles with some Missions to be a balanced game.

 

After 20 years Jervis Johnson is the Uwe Boll games design.

Cause i doubt he can do anything good without massive help.