What happens when an Avatar dies?

[Magos Takatus]

So I woke up this morning thinking about that period a few years ago where every character worth his salt in the setting had killed off an Avatar of Khaine almost as a rite of passage. It was terrible lore and thankfully is less common these days but it did make me wonder what happens when one of these molten titans is brought low. 

 

We have an example of a Dean Avatar of Khaine in the Warhammer Plus animation In the Garden of Ghosts with the Avatar of Khaine lying cold and dead amongst the ruins of a dead Craftworld. Since the Craftworld itself was in ruins after the Space Marine invasion this is not entirely surprising.

 

What of other Craftworlds though? Assuming the Craftworld survives, what happens then? I've considered a few ideas and I'm wondering what people believe happens. Please let me know if there is an official publication that tells us what happens but until then...

 

1) Yolo - That Avatar had it's chance, and now it's fallen in battle, it's gone, expired, DED etc.

2) Avatar is Recovered - The Aeldari manage to recover the remains of their fallen colossus and take it to it's resting place ready to recover and reform next time it is in need.

3) Respawn! - The Craftworld either has duplicate Shrines with other statues in or it mysteriously reforms after a while.

4) Rise from you Grave! The Avatar's spirit rekindles within the inert shell of it's body and slowly but surely it returns to life and requires no intervention from the denizens of the Craftworld.

 

The first option fits most with the Dying Race archetype but by now all of the Craftworld's Avatars would be long since defeated by Space Marine commanders and chokeslamming Primarchs. I personally think 4 is unlikely even if the Craftworld surives.  This leaves 2 and 3 as the more likely in my opinion.

 

So, what do you think? Providing it has a living Craftworld to return to, what happens to it upon death?

[Karhedron]

The answer in the lore is 3. If it is destroyed in battle, it's spirit returns to the craftworld through the infinity circuit and grows a new body.

 

Quote

Even if destroyed, an Avatar’s essence reforms in the Craftworld’s central chamber, so that he may return to continue the eternal struggle against those who oppose the Eldar.

 

This makes sense because the Avatar is a manifestation of the Craftworlders' hunger for battle. You can't really permanently destroy it unless you wipe out the Eldar on that Craftworld. This happens in the HH novella "Aurelian" where Lorgar finds a Craftworld that failed to escape the Eye of Terror during the Fall and crashed onto a Crone World. The Craftworld's inhabitant's have died and their Avatar is dying too as that the psychic energy that empowers it fades.

[Magos Takatus]

Wow, that was succinct. Thank you. It's been a long time since I'd read Aurelian and all I remember was I'm fairly sure Fulgrim choked that Avatar to death....somehow.

 

Out of curiosity, where was the quote you used from? It's been many editions since I owned an Eldar Codex, so I have some reading to catch up on. :)

[Karhedron]

I think that line is from the 3rd edition codex (although I could be wrong). But the notion of the Avatar's spirit returning to the Craftworld if its physical form is destroyed goes all the way back to the original Eldar lore in White Dwarf 127.

 

[Magos Takatus]

Thanks for showing me that page, it was very interesting to read, especially since my earliest experience with the Eldar was in the 2nd edition codex. I guess that was just a blindspot in my Aeldari knowledge. I find it interesting that he also had his Invulnerable save even that far back even if the rule wasn't widely available or given a pithy name yet. I had to check my crumbly old Eldar Codex to see if it was there and lo and behold, that was there too. For a model I think as a concept is one of the coolest in 40k I seem to have forgotten a few of the interesting tidbits.

[Lord_Caerolion]

Minor threadomancy to point out that Fulgrim didn’t choke and suffocate an Avatar to death, he choked it and crushed its neck. 
The novel had a lot of stupid stuff, but the Avatar didn’t die because it couldn’t breathe, it died because its head was no longer attached properly to its body. 

[The Yncarne]

What happens when an Avatar dies?

 

An aspect warrior gets its wings?

[Urkh]

59 minutes ago, The Yncarne said:

What happens when an Avatar dies?

 

An aspect warrior gets its wings?

 

So... they become a swooping hawk?

[The Yncarne]

17 minutes ago, Urkh said:

 

So... they become a swooping hawk?

 

No, another swopping hawk gets its wings.

 

[Magos Takatus]

11 hours ago, Lord_Caerolion said:

Minor threadomancy to point out that Fulgrim didn’t choke and suffocate an Avatar to death, he choked it and crushed its neck. 
The novel had a lot of stupid stuff, but the Avatar didn’t die because it couldn’t breathe, it died because its head was no longer attached properly to its body. 

I think this described the Avatar-killing fad from years back... 

[CancelledApocalypse]

Does it say anywhere that the Avatar is a physical thing inside the craftworld? Like it has a physical body and is just sleeping or something? I've always assumed that the rituals associated with the court of the young king ended with the young king him/herself being transmogrified into the avatar, which would mean the avatar exists more as a metaphysical spirit within the craftworld and only gains a body by using that of the young king. That would make sense if a physical body remains after the avatar is slain, which seems to exist in lore, but fits less well with the white dwarf article pronouncing that the avatar's body "seems to fade and evaporate"...

[Magos Takatus]

I always thought that the Avatar was still tied to the physical body but it's presence faded when it was no longer needed, similar to how a fire cools into embers over time. I always believed the Avatar brought about the lust for battle in Eldar gearing up for war but Karhedron claimed it was the background psychic impulses of the Aeldari themselves that rekindled the Avatar's incarnation instead? I will openly admit my interpretation seems less convincing.

[Kallas]

11 hours ago, CancelledApocalypse said:

Does it say anywhere that the Avatar is a physical thing inside the craftworld? Like it has a physical body and is just sleeping or something? I've always assumed that the rituals associated with the court of the young king ended with the young king him/herself being transmogrified into the avatar, which would mean the avatar exists more as a metaphysical spirit within the craftworld and only gains a body by using that of the young king. That would make sense if a physical body remains after the avatar is slain, which seems to exist in lore, but fits less well with the white dwarf article pronouncing that the avatar's body "seems to fade and evaporate"...

 

From the 4th Edition Codex (page 21)

Spoiler

The Avatar is basically a statue until 'filled' with psychic energy, mostly awoken from coming battle and the sacrifice of the Young King.

 

There may be some revisions in more recent Codexes though, but generally Eldar have stayed pretty consistent in there core background.

[CancelledApocalypse]

7 hours ago, Magos Takatus said:

I always thought that the Avatar was still tied to the physical body but it's presence faded when it was no longer needed, similar to how a fire cools into embers over time. I always believed the Avatar brought about the lust for battle in Eldar gearing up for war but Karhedron claimed it was the background psychic impulses of the Aeldari themselves that rekindled the Avatar's incarnation instead? I will openly admit my interpretation seems less convincing.

 

My next question then would be: is the relative size and power of the avatar from one craftworld to another related to the size of said craftworld's population and/or population of its infinity circuit? Do large craftworlds like Ulthwé have larger/more powerful avatars? Do small craftworlds have smaller and less powerful avatars? Is the same true of Iyanden because their population is mostly dead? Or does the fact that Iyanden (presumably) has an infinity circuit bursting with aeldari souls mean their avatar is as powerful as any other?

[Magos Takatus]

Ooh, that is a good question! That would nicely explain the differing scales of the Various Avatar miniatures.

 

 

The Epic scale Avatar on the right would be hilarious. He just jumps out from behind some bins and stabs his way through and unsuspecting Intercessor squad. He comes form a very small but fighty Craftworld! 

 

Sorry for posting this image yet again but it can be quite useful sometimes. I've got to start on that Plastic Avatar so I can update the image sometime.