Why do I keep hearing "Space Marine's are unrelatable"?

[The Neverborn]

There's something I keep hearing from people, frequently online. Which is "Space Marine's are unrelatable". And it's starting to get on my nerves.

 

I just can't see why this is? I've done around one-third of the Horus heresy (HH) books as well as a couple of none HH books and if you removed the references to their physical descriptions they feel like "normal people to me".

 

I've thought about this and other than them not having romantic involvement, biological family commitments and everything that comes with that. I just don't get it. - Though frankley this comes as somewhat of a refile. It's a separate issue, but often these subplots in media seem crow-bared into a narrative in which feels like box ticking to me. 

 

They don't seem "afraid to die" I suppose. But I see: arrogance, hubris, pride, duty, lamentation, anger, frustration, ignorance, ambition, social-cliques, discrimination and many more "humanist" traits. 

 

Can someone throw me a bone please?

[EverythingIsGreat]

There are flaws in some of the Legion makeup, that may have to do with genetics. The Primarch creation hasn't been explained in detail, but it seems either their essence was in some cases unstable, or was not handled properly in the making of Astartes stock, for a variety of reasons 

 

Because of this, their indoctrination was brittle and could be overcome. This is not universal but it is also not universally predictable. Unreliable .

 

 

EDIT: I need to disown this post of mine. I thought The Neverborn was asking about SM being unreLIAble instead of unreLATAble, a completely different thing. Sorry for the non-sequitur. Mods can delete this post if they so wish.

Edited May 8, 2023 by EverythingIsGreat
Off-topic

[cheywood]

Space Marines have human traits, I agree. But I don’t think that automatically makes them relatable in the way baseline humans tend to be, though people online tend to overemphasize the divide in the same way they overemphasize a lot of 40k’s characteristics.

 

Humans are social creatures, with goals, hobbies, compulsions, fears, and beliefs. Fundamentally, we’re individuals with our own idiosyncratic forms of expression derived from our life experiences. We crave connection with others and are motivated largely by our emotional/sensory realities.

 

Space Marines are decidedly different. Their goals, likes, and dislikes are determined as much by genetic and hypnotic indoctrination as they are by personal experience. They socialize almost entirely with their own kind and often have trouble communicating with baseline humans on an emotional level (The Emperor’s Gift is a great but extreme example, as is most of ADB’s work). Their motivations aren’t based on their emotional experience as much as they are an inculcated sense of duty shared by all chapter members, and in the end their purpose is to die in battle.
 

To use an example from the real world think about ascetic monks who do things like take long term vows of silence or attempt to mummify themselves. Those monks are human just like the rest of us. They likely laughed with friends, gloried in sunshine and despaired at the sight of dark clouds, but are they relatable in the way most people are? 
 

A lot of this also depends on the books you’re reading. Abnett’s Space Marines are about as relatable as they get, while ADB spends a lot of time exploring the differences between humans and Marines. Most other authors fall somewhere in between.

[Scribe]

In universe, or unrelatable to us?

[Arkangilos]

I’ve never liked the “not relatable” view.

 

I always remembered them being likened to the demigods of Greek myths, with the primarchs being the gods. 
 

The Greek mythical gods and demigods were supposed to be relatable in a sense. They were human traits and natural phenomena given extreme exaggeration, but maintained the human aspect. Projections of the emotions of men. 
 

Space Marines also have a monastic vibe thrown in. A lot of people might not find monks all that relatable, because of how they live and what they give up, but people who go beyond the habit (monastic garb), and peer beyond their intentional exile can still see the humanity and relatability of them.

 

I have spent some time at a traditional Benedictine monastery, and I would say they are relatable. (But I also have the rule of St. Benedict, commentary on it, and have enjoyed their spirituality, and I try to practice their liturgical life of praying the traditional divine office, so the regimented life is something I can relate to). 

Edited May 8, 2023 by Arkangilos

[wecanhaveallthree]

That's absolutely fascinating, Ark. If you ever have time, I really do think you should make a post about it - I'd love to hear more about that kind of perspective. In particular, I'd enjoy your thoughts on whether that 'monastic vibe' is good for 40K, as opposed to the more 'crusade in space'. Do you think the Space Marines should have more obviously religious elements? How do you find the shift away from the more obvious, antiquated stuff to the cleaner, more military spec-ops in the Primaris? 

 

To more generally contribute to this topic: how do people feel about the Primaris in general? Do you find them easier to relate to, as they're mostly written as the typical 'new guy' without any the associated burdens modern Marines have? Or do you find them temporally displaced, and harder to get to grips with because of how different they are and how they clash with the modern setting?

[Arkangilos]

18 minutes ago, wecanhaveallthree said:

. In particular, I'd enjoy your thoughts on whether that 'monastic vibe' is good for 40K, as opposed to the more 'crusade in space'.

As a quick response, they aren’t mutually exclusive. The Templars, Hospitaliars and other military religious orders based a lot on the rule of St. Benedict and other monastic rules. They had liturgical hours and lived as “monastic” knights. The space marines are kind of the same. They are “monastic” super soldiers who go on crusade while still maintaining the rule. But rather than the monastic rules we have it was the Rule of Guilliman. 
 

For the Primaris stuff in my mind it’s just newer gear, but from my understanding the lifestyle of a marine hasn’t changed. Though I would say as a traditional catholic, it would be far more relatable than I would like to admit if it was a big change (and so the fight between the new and the old would only reinforce the relatability to them. Traditional Vetus Ordo marines verses Modernist Novus Ordo marines, lol). Again though, I don’t think their customs and traditions changed with the introduction of the Primaris other than squad type and equipment.

[Mike Zulu]

Quote

... other than them not having romantic involvement, biological family commitments and everything that comes with that...

 

I would argue that Space Marines do still have an analogue for this, in the form of gene-seed.

Thinking of it like this:

• For a human, their children are the future of their family. They would do anything to protect them, and prepare them for the future.
• For an Astartes, their gene-seed is the future of the chapter. They would do anything to protect it, and prepare the future aspirants (that the gene-seed is implanted) for the future.

I admit it is not a strong parallel, but I would see both of these evoking the same emotions and motivations regardless of whether they were human or Astartes.

[Nagashsnee]

See this is a weird one, 40k space marines SHOULD be unrelatable based on the lore in most cases.  They are brainwashed monastic child soldiers for whome even basic actions are alien to our perspective, they think faster move, faster, they see better, hear better, think better, they are stronger/tougher.  They can gain knowledge by eating and can spit acid.  They have 2 hearts and can wistand poisons/situation that to a normal human is death.   Their goals, ambitions and everyday concerns are as alien to us as anything alien.  The imperium learned from the heresy and they learned good, emotional human marines are a liability. 

 

But the thing is that doesn't sell books, it doesn't make memorable characters and most importantly  it is very very very very  hard to do. Like very hard. Because the author has to constantly think in a perspective alien to a normal human and then convey that to us in a way that will make us want to read more.  

 

Now some chapters go against this, Salamanders being the number 1 in more 'human' marines, but the fact that they are noteworthy and that they based their culture around retaining their humanity reinforces the point that most don't.  Other like the BA and some of their bloodline work on it for other reasons (defence against the thirst/rage) etc. But again thats moving closer to relatable, everything else about the marines remain. 

 

Its why very often the marines who star in the books are 'special cases', softer touches or have a unique background.   Or their chapter is one of the off cases.

 

The perfect book for this talk is Spear of the Emperor, as it does it all, we have our marine protagonist start off as a normal marine, he is hard, distant and focused solely on marine things, even when his serfs TRY to engage him a human way it fails as he is simply at the time incapable of doing. He then transitions thru external extreme forces to a more human relatable 'normal' marine protagonist. Then we have the chapter he is visiting, which is of course non codex tribal human marine chapter (shocking i know). 

 

The simple truth is 90% of BL authors lack the talent (dont get me wrong not saying it is easy or that i could do it) to write 'normal' marines. The 10% who do realise its only good in small/special doses and even then will likely either dilute it with plenty of non marine POVs or change our marines during the story, 

 

 

What i LOVE is when good authors point this out in very tiny ways, maybe have a human character walk in to a marine watching a video and asking him why its muted only for the marine to point out that HE can hear it clearly.  Or entering a room only for the marine to remember they can see as well as he can and its very dark for THEM., etc.  They did allot of this for the Primarchs funnily enough, with furniture and stuff, but its as true for normal marines too. 

 

But to sum up, post human brainwashed child soldier murder lovers who operate on separate level of existence in 90% of activities should not be very relatable. But BL needs to sell books so 'normal' marines become rare in BL books. 

 

 

[Arkangilos]

6 hours ago, Nagashsnee said:

they think faster move, faster, they see better, hear better, think better, they are stronger/tougher.  They can gain knowledge by eating and can spit acid.  They have 2 hearts and can wistand poisons/situation that to a normal human is death.   Their goals, ambitions and everyday concerns are as alien to us as anything alien.

Physical traits don’t make someone unrelatable, though.

 

6 hours ago, Nagashsnee said:

Their goals, ambitions and everyday concerns are as alien to us as anything alien.  The imperium learned from the heresy and they learned good, emotional human marines are a liability. 

I’ve never seen anything in lore that confirms this. I’ve seen people claim it, but I haven’t seen confirmation. In fact it logically cannot be possible that their everyday concerns and ambitions are alien.

 

 

[tychobi]

Zealot super soldiers who worship a dead dude in a universe where actual gods exist? Brotastic social skills aside relating to post human dedicated killers with no hope of a normal life seems strange to me. Space marines are a parody exemplar of humanity at its worse.  While authors have gone a long way to make space marines "relatable" don't forget what space marines are.  

[Arkangilos]

1 hour ago, tychobi said:

don't forget what space marines are.  

Human. Which I explicitly remember the official lore saying. It was always something like, "Despite all this done to them, they were still human."

 

I wonder, do you guys think knights are unrelatable simply because they were likely stronger than you, had a different code of ethics than you, etc.?

 

I also wonder if we simply have different definitions of relatable. 

 

For example, a space marine is relatable to me in ways because 1) I was in the military. 2) I am very religious and live by religious rules, including a liturgical prayer life. 3) I understand the influence of space marines (meaning the historical influences of them). 4) I don't require them to be exactly like me in every way to relate to them or find them relatable. 

 

What makes them relatable is finding common values, beliefs, motivations, etc. 

 

For example: Space Marines "Shall know no fear". Devout Christians "Shall fear no evil." 

Space Marines: Sacrifice their worldly pleasures for their "god".

Christians (especially the monastic and more devout types): Sacrifice their worldly pleasures for God.

Space Marines: acknowledge there is only war in the world and that ultimately it is doomed.

Devout Catholics (especially the monastic type): Acknowledge that while there is good in this world, this world is fleeting and there is really only suffering in this life.

Space Marines: Dogmatic in their faith, following a rule laid down by their spiritual father.

Devout Catholics of the Monastic Variety: Dogmatic in their faith, following rules for life laid down by their spiritual father.

Space Marines: Willing to suffer for the Emperor.

Christians: Willing to suffer and die for Christ.

Space Marines: To die for the Emperor is the greatest thing they can do.

Christian Teaching: To die for Christ is the greatest thing they can do.

Space Marine: Hate the unclean.

Christian Teaching: Hate the sin, shun the unclean (in terms of sin).

 

Space Marines take things too far, true. But taking things too far doesn't mean it isn't relatable. Because as someone who is Zealous for Christ and who sees injustice around me,  it rouses anger towards sin that makes me relate to the feeling of what I see. For example, I can see a zealous space marine do something and say, "Acknowledging the corruption in my heart and my love for justice, I can understand and relate to why they do that, even if it is wrong.

 

To give an example from Greek myth:

I am not a woman, and I am not a god, yet I can relate to Aphrodite in ways because I know the lust in my heart and the pleasures of the flesh. So I look at the actions of Aphrodite, and knowing my own failures, corruptions, and dark desires, and I can relate to her, even if I choose to reject what she stands for. I can understand why she does what she does, I can feel the lust that she feels (even if to a lesser degree), and so I can relate. 

 

 

 

[Fubl]

I always thought it showed lack of imagination and have been saying it since 1984 for transformers.  In gen 1 they had spar plug and spike as the human perspective.   All they really needed to do was flesh out the reasons for the war more and you would not need the view point thought beast wars showed how this can be handled.   

 

 

If a charachter has humanistic charachteristics and decently written the audeince should humanize with them no matter what if the reader has any type of empathy or imagination 

[Rik Lightstar]

Space Marines absolutely SHOULD be unrelatable completely so. 

 

Intellectually:

 

They're meant to be operating at a level above the vast majority of humanity in terms of ability to process, memorise and recall information along with an exceptional ability to learn new skills.

 

It is commonly established that people struggle to communicate with or relate to those who are more than two standard deviations (approximately 30 IQ points) different from them. Which is a large part of why very intelligent people often find it difficult to form friendships. 

 

Emotionally:

 

They're taken away from regular human society at pre or early adolescence and spend their lives with others who have experienced the same. They're emotional development gets stuck somewhere around the mid-teens. 

 

Physically:

 

They're immense in a way that no human has ever been. Take the biggest guys out there from professional sports, they're still puny and fragile compared to a Space Marine. A Space Marine would barely even register a punch from a heavyweight boxer. 

 

Combining all of these factors gives us an angsty, genius, teenager with a physicality on a par with a Silverback Gorilla. 

 

This is then brainwashed and indoctrinated to the point where the only value they place on their life or the lives of their Battle Brothers is defined by their contribution to the current mission, their worth to their Squad/Company/Chapter and much they can serve the Imperium. 

 

However, as had been mentioned it's incredibly hard to write characters that exhibit these traits, it's even harder to get a reader to engage with said characters if you do manage it. 

 

Rik

[spessmarine]

9 hours ago, tychobi said:

Zealot super soldiers who worship a dead dude in a universe where actual gods exist? Brotastic social skills aside relating to post human dedicated killers with no hope of a normal life seems strange to me. Space marines are a parody exemplar of humanity at its worse.  While authors have gone a long way to make space marines "relatable" don't forget what space marines are.  

 

Warrior monk types, indoctrinated, basically mutants (they've got a dozens added organs come on), very much different and should come across as such.

As always, Dawn of War voice acting was so superb.

[Bryan Blaire]

Space Marines are not human.  Period.

 

They are transhuman, with additional organs, internal functions, and a reproductive mechanism that are not human in the slightest.

Starting as a human does not mean that you still are a human.

 

They shouldn’t be absolutely unrelatable - after all, Frankenstein’s monster, Adam, wasn’t completely unrelateable - but it should be incredibly hard.  They are much more notably alien to a human outlook than any knight, Special Forces operator, holy person, common man, criminal, field laborer, or primitive man ever are.  They are likely similar in relatability to the AdMech priesthood, possibly even a bit less there too.

 

As folks said above though, this is incredibly hard to do, even harder to do well, and doesn’t make for a good portrayal as a constant stream of consciousness for a first-person view character.  Instead, we should gain glimpses of something to possibly relate to through bystander views of activities that we might be able to attribute something familiar to - this gives a much better impression in BL writings for Marines in my opinion.

Edited May 9, 2023 by Bryan Blaire

[Nagashsnee]

14 hours ago, Arkangilos said:

Physical traits don’t make someone unrelatable, though.

 

Psychical traits define how we see, interact and experience the world around us.  The bigger the difference in said treats the bigger the difference in our experiences.  I think the best way to compare it is a average person, with say someone suffering from dwarfism and someone who is extremely obese.  Even the most mundane action these three will do say sitting on a chair, taking a walk, carrying a box will be a different experience. Some of them might not even be able to do these actions.  Marines are this x100.  Their natural thought pattern would be vastly different. Their reactions, thoughts and trouble solving will be vastly different to ours.   By themselves they don't make someone unrelatable, but add in all the other marine stuff and boom that goose is cooked. 

 

I can relate to a person born blind as a fellow human being, but i CANNOT relate to being born blind, it is simply outside my frame of reference.  I can be blindfolded and spend say a week or a month blind, it will give me frames of reference to being blind, but never have seen at all? Forget it. 

 

Edit: I just remembered that marines have near perfect recall/memory (tho very old marines like Dante seem to eventual lose this). Yet another super relatable trait. 

 

 

Edited May 9, 2023 by Nagashsnee

[Nagashsnee]

12 hours ago, Arkangilos said:

For example, a space marine is relatable to me in ways because 1) I was in the military. 2) I am very religious and live by religious rules, including a liturgical prayer life. 3) I understand the influence of space marines (meaning the historical influences of them). 4) I don't require them to be exactly like me in every way to relate to them or find them relatable. 

 

What makes them relatable is finding common values, beliefs, motivations, etc. 

 

For example: Space Marines "Shall know no fear". Devout Christians "Shall fear no evil." 

Space Marines: Sacrifice their worldly pleasures for their "god".

Christians (especially the monastic and more devout types): Sacrifice their worldly pleasures for God.

Space Marines: acknowledge there is only war in the world and that ultimately it is doomed.

Devout Catholics (especially the monastic type): Acknowledge that while there is good in this world, this world is fleeting and there is really only suffering in this life.

Space Marines: Dogmatic in their faith, following a rule laid down by their spiritual father.

Devout Catholics of the Monastic Variety: Dogmatic in their faith, following rules for life laid down by their spiritual father.

Space Marines: Willing to suffer for the Emperor.

Christians: Willing to suffer and die for Christ.

Space Marines: To die for the Emperor is the greatest thing they can do.

Christian Teaching: To die for Christ is the greatest thing they can do.

Space Marine: Hate the unclean.

Christian Teaching: Hate the sin, shun the unclean (in terms of sin).

 

 

Oh wow where would one even start without immediately making it personal and probably causing offence on a post like this.  Like i don't even agree with your interpretation of Christian teachings at this point forget anything else.  You do you man, you do you. 

[Arkangilos]

44 minutes ago, Nagashsnee said:

 

 

Oh wow where would one even start without immediately making it personal and probably causing offence on a post like this.  Like i don't even agree with your interpretation of Christian teachings at this point forget anything else.  You do you man, you do you. 

That’s fine, I have catechisms and the writings of the fathers I can refer to, as well as Sacred Scripture and Psalms, with the relevant commentary. I mean I can literally back up every claim from the Bible.
 

The point is it is relatable based on what I’ve got. They take actual things the Church teaches and believes (which is undeniable, it was literally based on gothic medieval Catholicism), and they took it to an excess. Because I know what it is supposed to be, I can understand and relate to the excess. (Edit to add: I think you might have understood what I was saying so I sent a PM where you can go ahead and say what you wanted to say).

 

53 minutes ago, Nagashsnee said:

  I think the best way to compare it is a average person, with say someone suffering from dwarfism and someone who is extremely obese.  Even the most mundane action these three will do say sitting on a chair, taking a walk, carrying a box will be a different experience. Some of them might not even be able to do these actions.

And yet I would say I can relate to someone who can lift more than me, and I can relate to someone who can’t lift as much as me.

 

I have done long pilgrimages where I have walked very fast for 26 miles in one day, and 10 miles the next day, yet I can relate to people who cannot physically do that and I can relate to people who can do more. If *you cannot* that is a *you* problem, not a *them* problem.

 

You *do not have to be something to relate to them*.
 

You do not even have to 100 percent understand to relate to them. Relate isn’t an equivalency, it is a relation.

4 hours ago, Bryan Blaire said:

Starting as a human does not mean that you still are a human.

Yes it does. 
You cannot change your substance. If I replace my arms with robotics, I am still a human, I just have robotic arms. If I add organs, I am still a human I just have extra organs.

 

They are disordered humans, but still substantially human. 

Edited May 9, 2023 by Arkangilos

[Arkangilos]

I don’t think this is something anyone can come to a consensus on because we share different definitions, philosophies, and theologies. 
 

A good example is that someone said they can’t relate to a blind man from birth because he was never blind, but I don’t think being blind is a requirement to relate to him. I think being able to understand being deprived of something is enough. 

 

[Rik Lightstar]

1 hour ago, Arkangilos said:

I don’t think this is something anyone can come to a consensus on because we share different definitions, philosophies, and theologies. 
 

A good example is that someone said they can’t relate to a blind man from birth because he was never blind, but I don’t think being blind is a requirement to relate to him. I think being able to understand being deprived of something is enough. 

 

 

I completely see what you mean but for me the issue becomes the number of points of divergence and similarity. There comes a point where the things you have in common are so few that it seems to me that there is very little to relate to.

 

Rik

[Arkangilos]

15 minutes ago, Rik Lightstar said:

I completely see what you mean but for me the issue becomes the number of points of divergence and similarity. There comes a point where the things you have in common are so few that it seems to me that there is very little to relate to.

I think I would agree there are things we cannot relate to, but things we cannot relate to doesn’t mean that we cannot relate to them as a whole.

 

To go back to my Greek myth example with Aphrodite, I cannot relate to her in the way a woman can relate to her. But I can relate to her in the way someone who struggles with lust, love, jealousy, beauty, etc. 

 

There are relatable traits that make the person relatable, even if the person has for more pronounced versions of those traits. 
 

Anyone who has a bad family can relate to anyone else who has a bad family, even if the nature of the bad family is different. 
 

Anyone who follows a religious rule can relate to someone else who follows a religious rule. 
 

Anyone who has been in the military can relate to someone else who has been in the military, even if one suffered far worse. 
 

A gang war veteran can relate to a war veteran, even though they are different. 
 

As long as you can draw a logical path from what you have done to what another has done, what you have felt verses what another feels, you can relate to some degree. 

Edited May 9, 2023 by Arkangilos

[Arkangilos]

Sorry for the double post, but I guess I would start by asking these questions:

1) Why did the traitor space marines decide to follow chaos?

2) Why did the loyalists decide to stay loyal?

Like break those motives down to the most basic components. 
 

Would you say you could understand the base motives?
 

Horus felt he was betrayed, and was lied to, and that his father abandoned him.

 

Lorgar wanted something greater. He longed to worship.

 

One of the WB chaplains in Echoes thought it was the only way for humanity to save their souls. 
 

Sanguinius and the BA wanted a better future for themselves. 
 

Khan wanted freedom.

 

Dorn wanted to fulfill his duty.

 

Can you relate to those? 
 

The reason I find them relatable is that no matter what they are, their motivations, all of them, can be broken down to very simple concepts of the will. Once you break those down you can relate.

 

Take away the physical attributes, and look at each action they take. Why do they take those actions? Why do they feel what they feel?

 

Edit to add:

I have a lot more to say but I find it difficult without breaking rules about bringing in real life topics. Like if I could go into the faith, my religious practices, why I, by grace, have been given the inspiration to do what I do, and how I came into that and the importance of it, I think I would be able to make a more compelling explanation.

Edited May 9, 2023 by Arkangilos

[Bryan Blaire]

5 hours ago, Arkangilos said:

You cannot change your substance. If I replace my arms with robotics, I am still a human, I just have robotic arms. If I add organs, I am still a human I just have extra organs.

 

They are disordered humans, but still substantially human. 

Being “substantially human” does not mean they are human.

 

If you take an organism and insert or alter baseline genetic code that the organism could not have acquired without that insertion or forced alteration, or introduce organs that the organism could not grow from it’s own genetic code, then the organism that has the alterations done to it is now not that original organism, it is something different.

 

That’s what the Emperor did when he created Space Marines - made other-than-baseline-humans (i.e. non-humans, transhumans) to fight for humans.  Sure, they aren’t Eldar, Orks, or Tyranids, but they certainly aren’t humans.  Look at things that started out as humans, but are considered fundamentally “not human” or “abhuman” in the setting: beastmen, Ratlings, ogryn, Votann.  The setting embraces the concept of “once human, but no longer human” in it already.

 

This isn’t a theological or real-world debate about “what it means to be human”.

 

Not being fully human doesn’t mean that someone can’t relate to something though.  Even the alien is likely to have some small element in common with a human that could be related to - the need to eat, for example.  Someone may not understand what it is to “eat” a rock and digest it and gain needed nutrients from it, but a person can understand hunger and consumption of material for a body’s purposes.

Edited May 9, 2023 by Bryan Blaire

[Xenith]

On 5/7/2023 at 2:20 PM, The Neverborn said:

There's something I keep hearing from people, frequently online. Which is "Space Marine's are unrelatable". And it's starting to get on my nerves.

 

I just can't see why this is? I've done around one-third of the Horus heresy (HH) books as well as a couple of none HH books

 

There's an important distinction to be made between Pre-HH astartes and post-HH astartes. Preheresy marines were more  'human' and relatable as they underwent less hypno-indoctrination, or none at all depending on Legion. This led to less than desired loalty to legion and throne, so post heresy the marines minds are messed with a lot more and they undergo more indoctrination, taking them further from normal human behaviour. 

 

 The marines that we see in literature are often the ones that are 'more' able to relate to humans, again, a minority of marines, due to the storytelling process. They have to make them relatable so we can engage with the story. 

Edited May 10, 2023 by Xenith