Why do I keep hearing "Space Marine's are unrelatable"?

[Dracos]

Their physical prowess has nothing to do with being relatable or not relatable. If that was the case all superhero movies would be a bust. It’s the universe and cultural dynamics the author emphasizes that make a character relatable or not.
 

According to author your mileage may vary but my take is if you took the modern professional soldier placed them in a universe of monsters aliens and demons and said “The survival of  Humanity depends on you.” But you have to do so with a corrupt authoritarian government and religious order … you would end up with the basic space marine mind set regardless of hypnotraining and indoctrinations. 

[Arkangilos]

5 hours ago, Bryan Blaire said:

This isn’t a theological or real-world debate about “what it means to be human”.

No, it isn’t, but because I’m real world, my ability to relate is based upon what it means. 
 

Like some say they aren’t human so we cannot relate to them. They made two claims, both of which are false. I wouldn’t agree with someone who makes either claim.
 

Also, you cannot substantially be one thing and then be not what you are substantially. Your substance is what you are. 
 

They are substantially humans with super human accidents. (Accidents is not a word for “oops” but for traits).

 

Edited May 9, 2023 by Arkangilos

[Bryan Blaire]

I have already stated my point about why Marines are not standard humans as we know them, but transhumans - they may have started out as human, but ceased to be so due to the genetic modifications and organ implantation they undergo.

 

They have become something outside the human species through their modifications.  They are like any other abhumans in 40K - recognized as not human.

 

Your assertion that one thing can’t become another is incorrect biologically and as recognized in 40K.

 

And again - that does not affect their relatability.  Just because something isn’t human doesn’t mean you can’t relate to it.  You can relate to things that aren’t human, we do it in the real world all the time.

Edited May 9, 2023 by Bryan Blaire

[Arkangilos]

4 hours ago, Bryan Blaire said:

Your assertion that one thing can’t become another is incorrect biologically and as recognized in 40K.

It isn’t incorrect biologically (especially) or in 40k. Heck even in 40K literature there is debate on it, with different ones having different view points. It is physically impossible to become something substantially different. If you start out with the substance of x, you will always be x no matter how changed you are. Also Abhumans are still humans, if if in universe people don’t recognize them as such.
 

I agree with your last point, though. 

Edited May 9, 2023 by Arkangilos

[Bryan Blaire]

Never mind - this isn’t going to go anywhere and we clearly have very different view points on what is meant by some of these things.  It’s really going to go off-topic and we are already there - no point in going further.

Edited May 10, 2023 by Bryan Blaire

[Arkangilos]

4 hours ago, Bryan Blaire said:

Never mind - this isn’t going to go anywhere and we clearly have very different view points on what is meant by some of these things.  It’s really going to go off-topic and we are already there - no point in going further.

For what it is worth, the “they don’t have to be human to be relatable” *is* a better argument point (unless the person doesn’t believe we can’t relate not non-humans).

[The Neverborn]

On 5/7/2023 at 2:58 PM, cheywood said:

Space Marines have human traits, I agree. But I don’t think that automatically makes them relatable in the way baseline humans tend to be, though people online tend to overemphasize the divide in the same way they overemphasize a lot of 40k’s characteristics.

 

Humans are social creatures, with goals, hobbies, compulsions, fears, and beliefs. Fundamentally, we’re individuals with our own idiosyncratic forms of expression derived from our life experiences. We crave connection with others and are motivated largely by our emotional/sensory realities.

 

Space Marines are decidedly different. Their goals, likes, and dislikes are determined as much by genetic and hypnotic indoctrination as they are by personal experience. They socialize almost entirely with their own kind and often have trouble communicating with baseline humans on an emotional level (The Emperor’s Gift is a great but extreme example, as is most of ADB’s work). Their motivations aren’t based on their emotional experience as much as they are an inculcated sense of duty shared by all chapter members, and in the end their purpose is to die in battle.
 

To use an example from the real world think about ascetic monks who do things like take long term vows of silence or attempt to mummify themselves. Those monks are human just like the rest of us. They likely laughed with friends, gloried in sunshine and despaired at the sight of dark clouds, but are they relatable in the way most people are? 
 

A lot of this also depends on the books you’re reading. Abnett’s Space Marines are about as relatable as they get, while ADB spends a lot of time exploring the differences between humans and Marines. Most other authors fall somewhere in between.

 

This is probably the "Best" Answer so far.

 

For whatever reason I can relate to the Space Marines I've read in Books. Doesn't mean I like them all and I'm not a 8" tall acid spitting cold blooded killer, but other than that we're good.

 

Conversations seems to have diverged a bit recently.

 

Carry on.

[tychobi]

Relating to murderous zealots is pretty strange for people who have morals and such.  I would do some serious soul searching if I ever found myself relating to space marines the same as relating to any real world group that kills on the orders of an old book or demagogue. 

[The Neverborn]

On 5/8/2023 at 10:05 AM, Nagashsnee said:

See this is a weird one, 40k space marines SHOULD be unrelatable based on the lore in most cases.  They are brainwashed monastic child soldiers for whome even basic actions are alien to our perspective, they think faster move, faster, they see better, hear better, think better, they are stronger/tougher.  They can gain knowledge by eating and can spit acid.  They have 2 hearts and can wistand poisons/situation that to a normal human is death.   Their goals, ambitions and everyday concerns are as alien to us as anything alien.  The imperium learned from the heresy and they learned good, emotional human marines are a liability. 

 

But the thing is that doesn't sell books, it doesn't make memorable characters and most importantly  it is very very very very  hard to do. Like very hard. Because the author has to constantly think in a perspective alien to a normal human and then convey that to us in a way that will make us want to read more.  

 

Now some chapters go against this, Salamanders being the number 1 in more 'human' marines, but the fact that they are noteworthy and that they based their culture around retaining their humanity reinforces the point that most don't.  Other like the BA and some of their bloodline work on it for other reasons (defence against the thirst/rage) etc. But again thats moving closer to relatable, everything else about the marines remain. 

 

Its why very often the marines who star in the books are 'special cases', softer touches or have a unique background.   Or their chapter is one of the off cases.

 

The perfect book for this talk is Spear of the Emperor, as it does it all, we have our marine protagonist start off as a normal marine, he is hard, distant and focused solely on marine things, even when his serfs TRY to engage him a human way it fails as he is simply at the time incapable of doing. He then transitions thru external extreme forces to a more human relatable 'normal' marine protagonist. Then we have the chapter he is visiting, which is of course non codex tribal human marine chapter (shocking i know). 

 

The simple truth is 90% of BL authors lack the talent (dont get me wrong not saying it is easy or that i could do it) to write 'normal' marines. The 10% who do realise its only good in small/special doses and even then will likely either dilute it with plenty of non marine POVs or change our marines during the story, 

 

 

What i LOVE is when good authors point this out in very tiny ways, maybe have a human character walk in to a marine watching a video and asking him why its muted only for the marine to point out that HE can hear it clearly.  Or entering a room only for the marine to remember they can see as well as he can and its very dark for THEM., etc.  They did allot of this for the Primarchs funnily enough, with furniture and stuff, but its as true for normal marines too. 

 

But to sum up, post human brainwashed child soldier murder lovers who operate on separate level of existence in 90% of activities should not be very relatable. But BL needs to sell books so 'normal' marines become rare in BL books. 

 

 

 

 

I think I've changed my mind.

 

It's a bit depressing which is probably why I wasn't on board with it but I think the 90% of writers can't do it well is a good answer.

  

  

27 minutes ago, tychobi said:

Relating to murderous zealots is pretty strange for people who have morals and such.  I would do some serious soul searching if I ever found myself relating to space marines the same as relating to any real world group that kills on the orders of an old book or demagogue. 

 

11 hours ago, The Neverborn said:

 

This is probably the "Best" Answer so far.

 

For whatever reason I can relate to the Space Marines I've read in Books. Doesn't mean I like them all and I'm not a 8" tall acid spitting cold blooded killer, but other than that we're good.

 

Conversations seems to have diverged a bit recently.

 

Carry on.

 

 

 

I did mention the murdering part is the bit i don't relate to. You, my neighbors and the church of the road are all perfectly safe.

Edited May 10, 2023 by The Neverborn
I suck at copy paste,

[Sea Creature]

Soldiers kill, it’s not necessarily always a bad thing.

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

Personally I am not a fan of SM novels, because marines aren’t supposed to be relatable. They’re genetically engineered super soldiers, that have no fear as a common man would understand the word.

 

books about normal humans that feature marines? Always great in how they’re featured, but books about marines themselves? Don’t like them.

 

on of the BA books has a primaris marine from a BA successor and all he does the entire book (as far as I read about 1/3 - 1/2 way through) was whine about how the planet they were operating on wasn’t a glorious enough theater of war.  Just whine, whine,  whine. 
whining is relatable, but it’s not something the angels of death should be doing.

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

On 5/8/2023 at 10:18 AM, Arkangilos said:

Physical traits don’t make someone unrelatable, though.

 

I’ve never seen anything in lore that confirms this. I’ve seen people claim it, but I haven’t seen confirmation. In fact it logically cannot be possible that their everyday concerns and ambitions are alien.

 

 

Physical traits can though.

 

im fairly athletic but the level of athletic skill of people in the NFL, UFC, etc makes them very unrelatable to me 

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

On 5/9/2023 at 2:29 PM, Bryan Blaire said:

I have already stated my point about why Marines are not standard humans as we know them, but transhumans - they may have started out as human, but ceased to be so due to the genetic modifications and organ implantation they undergo.

 

They have become something outside the human species through their modifications.  They are like any other abhumans in 40K - recognized as not human.

 

Your assertion that one thing can’t become another is incorrect biologically and as recognized in 40K.

 

And again - that does not affect their relatability.  Just because something isn’t human doesn’t mean you can’t relate to it.  You can relate to things that aren’t human, we do it in the real world all the time.

Abhumans are still human, marines are still human…

 

even though Neanderthals are not Homo sapiens, they’re still recognized as an early species of human. We as we are today is not the limit of what it is to be human from a biological stand point.

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

8 hours ago, tychobi said:

Relating to murderous zealots is pretty strange for people who have morals and such.  I would do some serious soul searching if I ever found myself relating to space marines the same as relating to any real world group that kills on the orders of an old book or demagogue. 

You can’t relate to peoples’ feelings and emotions just because they’re zealots or extremists?

 

you probably should do some soul searching.

Edited May 11, 2023 by Inquisitor_Lensoven

[Arkangilos]

1 hour ago, Inquisitor_Lensoven said:

Physical traits can though.

 

im fairly athletic but the level of athletic skill of people in the NFL, UFC, etc makes them very unrelatable to me 

I don’t think you can relate specifically to their physical strength but you can relate to the struggle to become physically fit, to maintain a diet, to sacrifice, to lift more than you could before, etc. 

[Arkangilos]

3 hours ago, Inquisitor_Lensoven said:

They’re genetically engineered super soldiers, that have no fear as a common man would understand the word.

I personally know people who know no fear. I also have a book I pray from for the hour of prime called the Martyrology where you read the names of all the people who died for Christ on a particular day in the early Church (or at least a few of them). All of them I would say, based on how their life was related, “know no fear”.

 

Like it is a huge part of Catholicism and even Sacred Scripture (read the account in 2 Maccabees of the seven martyrs and their mother). 
 

Knowing no fear can actually be one of the easiest traits for a religious man to relate to.

Edited May 11, 2023 by Arkangilos

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

4 minutes ago, Arkangilos said:

I don’t think you can relate specifically to their physical strength but you can relate to the struggle to become physically fit, to maintain a diet, to sacrifice, to lift more than you could before, etc. 

honestly I’m not even sure I can relate to that lol.

 

i cut 3 pounds for a KB fight and it was hell over the course of a few weeks. I cannot relate to weight cuts serious fighters cut weight. The mentality behind it is ridiculous.

 

likewise even as a veteran I can’t really relate to the SEALs beyond the most basic levels from a professional/military perspective. 

3 minutes ago, Arkangilos said:

I personally know people who know no fear. I also have a book I pray from for the hour of prime called the Martyrology where you read the names of all the people who died for Christ on a particular day in the early Church (or at least a few of them). All of them I would say, based on how their life was related, “know no fear”.

 

Like it is a huge part of Catholicism and even Sacred Scripture (read the account in 2 Maccabees of the seven martyrs and their mother). 
 

Knowing no fear can actually be one of the easiest traits for a religious man to relate to.

Do they know no fear or do they conquer their fear? Those are two very different things.

 

 

[Arkangilos]

3 minutes ago, Inquisitor_Lensoven said:

honestly I’m not even sure I can relate to that lol.

 

i cut 3 pounds for a KB fight and it was hell over the course of a few weeks. I cannot relate to weight cuts serious fighters cut weight. The mentality behind it is ridiculous.

 

likewise even as a veteran I can’t really relate to the SEALs beyond the most basic levels from a professional/military perspective. 

See this is why I think we might be working off different definitions. Maybe it would be more accurate for me to say progressive relation? 
 

Like you wouldn’t relate as an equal but you could build an understanding by taking what you do know and taking it further.

 

4 minutes ago, Inquisitor_Lensoven said:

Do they know no fear or do they conquer their fear? Those are two very different things.

They are described as knowing no fear. 2 Maccabees has the brother explicitly saying they have no fear because they know they will be resurrected, and so will be rewarded for holding firm. 
 

The stories of the martyrs likewise have the Martyrs (not all of them, granted, but a good amount) having no fear from the beginning.

 

The zealous often have less fear because to them it is a good thing to suffer and die, which is ironically (though less peacefully) what the Space Marines are indoctrinated to do. So while a Christian isn’t supposed to be blood thirsty, the principle is the same, the zealousness casts the fear out so that they know no fear.

[Arkangilos]

38 minutes ago, Inquisitor_Lensoven said:

You can’t relate to peoples’ feelings and emotions just because they’re zealots or extremists?

 

you probably should do some soul searching.

Yeah, and just because you can relate to them doesn’t mean you agree with them or support them. In fact relating to them makes one far more likely to peacefully convince them to change. It also helps one not hate their enemy.

Edited May 11, 2023 by Arkangilos

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

13 hours ago, Arkangilos said:

See this is why I think we might be working off different definitions. Maybe it would be more accurate for me to say progressive relation? 
 

Like you wouldn’t relate as an equal but you could build an understanding by taking what you do know and taking it further.

 

They are described as knowing no fear. 2 Maccabees has the brother explicitly saying they have no fear because they know they will be resurrected, and so will be rewarded for holding firm. 
 

The stories of the martyrs likewise have the Martyrs (not all of them, granted, but a good amount) having no fear from the beginning.

 

The zealous often have less fear because to them it is a good thing to suffer and die, which is ironically (though less peacefully) what the Space Marines are indoctrinated to do. So while a Christian isn’t supposed to be blood thirsty, the principle is the same, the zealousness casts the fear out so that they know no fear.

Sorry I can’t relate to or take the statements of mythology seriously.

however marines are mostly not religious and have no belief in an afterlife.

 

but you said you know people who know no fear, so again do they not have fear or do they over come fear?

[Arkangilos]

28 minutes ago, Inquisitor_Lensoven said:

 

but you said you know people who know no fear, so again do they not have fear or do they over come fear?

They know no fear. 
 

Also even if you don’t take them seriously you can relate to mythology. Most mythology (and I’m not including what I cited that you called mythology) was made to be relatable.

Edited May 11, 2023 by Arkangilos

[Arkangilos]

31 minutes ago, Inquisitor_Lensoven said:

however marines are mostly not religious and have no belief in an afterlife.

That’s also relatively recent lore. 
 

but even if they don’t believe in the afterlife (which is not really true), they *are* religious. They have liturgies, litanies, etc. which are all parts of religion. A liturgy is literally a religious rite.

[tychobi]

15 hours ago, Inquisitor_Lensoven said:

You can’t relate to peoples’ feelings and emotions just because they’re zealots or extremists?

 

you probably should do some soul searching.

I can understand evil without relating to it.  

[Arkangilos]

1 hour ago, tychobi said:

I can understand evil without relating to it.  

If you understand you relate to them. 
 

So when I was in Afghanistan, we did a patrol around Kabul to ensure the Afghan National Police (ANP) were properly securing the height barriers to prevent large VBID’s from getting into the inner city. 
 

One of the problems we constantly had was that the ANP willingly let them in. 

While on patrol I learned from the contractor we escorted around that the ANP hadn’t been paid in sixth months. 
 

I then began understanding why our allies kept betraying us. (Which is why I was there, I was to prevent green on blue). I would never betray someone I have agreed to work with. But I could relate to them. They had families they had to support and weren’t being paid. So a “freedom fighter” comes to them and says, “I can give you 10,000 dollars right now to open this gate, or I can kill you or your family”, it makes perfect sense why they would turn on us. They can feed their family for a year by one simple action (even if they die), or they can let their family starve. 
 

I consider the betrayal evil. I would NEVER do it. But because I know the drive to protect my family, I can relate to them.

Edited May 11, 2023 by Arkangilos

[Sea Creature]

I agree if you understand it then you must relate.