Why do I keep hearing "Space Marine's are unrelatable"?

[The Neverborn]

3 hours ago, tychobi said:

I can understand evil without relating to it.  

The disparagement of my character notwithstanding. Feeling we're somewhat getting off topic.

 

So the member can't relate to a Space Marine?

 

But in a Bizarre and Ironic way they've provided a fantastic answer. They are unwilling to relate to Space Marines as they kill things, all be those things, fictional things.

 

My Favourite Space Marine is Natheniel Garro. While he has killed things most of those thing's aren't really alive, I think he's a really good character. During the series he goes through a period of growth and personal development, loss, finding one's place sadness.

 

Saul Tarvitz is would also be up there.

 

There we go. Some people are unwilling to relate to Space Marines as they kills (fictional) things and are religious Zealots. Though I would point out that many of the 30k Marines, e.g. Saul Tarvitz aren't religious at all.

Edited May 11, 2023 by The Neverborn

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

2 hours ago, The Neverborn said:

The disparagement of my character notwithstanding. Feeling we're somewhat getting off topic.

 

So the member can't relate to a Space Marine?

 

But in a Bizarre and Ironic way they've provided a fantastic answer. They are unwilling to relate to Space Marines as they kill things, all be those things, fictional things.

 

My Favourite Space Marine is Natheniel Garro. While he has killed things most of those thing's aren't really alive, I think he's a really good character. During the series he goes through a period of growth and personal development, loss, finding one's place sadness.

 

Saul Tarvitz is would also be up there.

 

There we go. Some people are unwilling to relate to Space Marines as they kills (fictional) things and are religious Zealots. Though I would point out that many of the 30k Marines, e.g. Saul Tarvitz aren't religious at all.

who said they can't relate to space marines because they kill things? if that's the case they can't relate to like anyone or anything in the 40k universe...at least not anyone or anything thats going to be heavily featured in a novel any way.

also *most* marines aren't religious at all, let alone religious zealots.

Edited May 12, 2023 by Inquisitor_Lensoven

[Arkangilos]

1 hour ago, Inquisitor_Lensoven said:

also *most* marines aren't religious at all, let alone religious zealots

What are you talking about?

 

Religious doesn’t mean worships a god. They literally have litanies, prayers, liturgies, chaplains, priesthoods, rites, etc. The third edition even has a chart for what their day is like. 
https://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Daily_rituals_of_a_Space_Marine

 

Further, they have relics to which are attributed miracles. 
 

They are by all definitions religious.

[Sea Creature]

"They are by all definitions religious."
 

Some more than others and each in their own way. The lore for Black Templars they used to not revere the Emperor.

[Arkangilos]

2 minutes ago, Sea Creature said:

"They are by all definitions religious."
 

Some more than others and each in their own way. The lore for Black Templars they used to not revere the Emperor.

True, they swapped with the standard marines lol.

 

I am not saying all are super duper religious, but it’s an undeniable fact that they are religious and their rites are based on Medieval Catholicism (except the Space Wolves).

[Marshal Reinhard]

6 hours ago, Sea Creature said:

"They are by all definitions religious."
 

Some more than others and each in their own way. The lore for Black Templars they used to not revere the Emperor.

Eh no? What are you even trying to say here? There are no loyal Astartes anywhere that do not revere the emperor. He is the most important being to all astartes, the center of their belief systems.

 

You likely meant to say the old lore is was that they did not neccessarily deify him. The big change in lore that happened during 6th edition was that the black templars  were made to be followers of the Imperial creed.

 

Before then it could be debated they were among the slew of "fundamentalist atheist" chapters that aggressively followed the emperor as a nondivine being. The 4th edition black templar codex is full of religious language and I can't recall a single case of it definately stating they didnt view him as a god. 

 

Further it's not really clear that space marine at large dont view him as a divine being even if they don't follow the imperial creed. That said there are clear cases where they dont, most often in chapters that predate the imperial creed.

[Tacitus]

On 5/7/2023 at 6:20 AM, The Neverborn said:

There's something I keep hearing from people, frequently online. Which is "Space Marine's are unrelatable". And it's starting to get on my nerves.

 

I just can't see why this is? I've done around one-third of the Horus heresy (HH) books as well as a couple of none HH books and if you removed the references to their physical descriptions they feel like "normal people to me".

 

I've thought about this and other than them not having romantic involvement, biological family commitments and everything that comes with that. I just don't get it. - Though frankley this comes as somewhat of a refile. It's a separate issue, but often these subplots in media seem crow-bared into a narrative in which feels like box ticking to me. 

 

They don't seem "afraid to die" I suppose. But I see: arrogance, hubris, pride, duty, lamentation, anger, frustration, ignorance, ambition, social-cliques, discrimination and many more "humanist" traits. 

 

Can someone throw me a bone please?

Its probably going to vary from book to book, and "era" here - the HH books have Space Marines as far more of an Everyman because just about every man in the books is a Space Marine, or a supporting actor/narrator with a depth just above set decoration working for the Space Marines.  The "modern" era Space Marines in the year 40,000 are far more often more of a Mary Sue than an Everyman. 

 

Basically, when all 10,000 soldiers crawling into Drop Pods are Space Marines, a Space Marine is your neighbor.  When your neighbor is curled up against a wall and wetting themselves, while the 8 foot tall superhuman Greek God punches the Alien from the movies in the nose - your neighbor is wetting themselves. 

[Bryan Blaire]

All Marines have their Chapter Cults (that’s what they are referred to as) into which they are inducted and indoctrinated.  We don’t know exact specifics of what they entail as far as rites, beliefs, proscriptions, etc., for the great majority of Chapters, but we know they are there, and overseen by the Chapter’s Chaplains.

 

Not all definitions of religion require it to be about a specific god, but the Imperial Creed definitely includes the Emperor as a god. 
 

So it is a good bet that all Marines would be described as religious.  It would be very hard not to have at least a belief in supernatural powers, if not a devotion to one, when said supernatural powers exist around you all the time in the universe.

Edited May 12, 2023 by Bryan Blaire

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

14 hours ago, Arkangilos said:

What are you talking about?

 

Religious doesn’t mean worships a god. They literally have litanies, prayers, liturgies, chaplains, priesthoods, rites, etc. The third edition even has a chart for what their day is like. 
https://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Daily_rituals_of_a_Space_Marine

 

Further, they have relics to which are attributed miracles. 
 

They are by all definitions religious.

haven't read an HH book in a while, but i'm pretty sure during the crusade while the emperor was trying to stomp out all religion, that they still had marines called chaplains within the legions, so iirc that means office titles like chaplain or priest don't mean they're religious.

3rd edition was almost 30 years ago, and fluff has changed a lot since then.

yep, the BA had 'wardens' during the crusade as an example, skull helmet, black armor, winged mace.  sounds like a chaplain, but they had no religious duties.

 

Edited May 12, 2023 by Inquisitor_Lensoven

[Arkangilos]

11 minutes ago, Inquisitor_Lensoven said:

haven't read an HH book in a while, but i'm pretty sure during the crusade while the emperor was trying to stomp out all religion, that they still had marines called chaplains within the legions, so iirc that means office titles like chaplain or priest don't mean they're religious.

3rd edition was almost 30 years ago, and fluff has changed a lot since then.

It’s common knowledge that the emperor failed at that. Also Chaplains came from the word bearers, who were religious.

 

I would give you that most 30k marines were not religious. But by the time you get to 40K they are religious.

[WARMASTER_]

1 hour ago, Arkangilos said:

 

I would give you that most 30k marines were not religious. But by the time you get to 40K they are religious.

It’s actually one of my favourite contradictions of 40k Space Marines that many see themselves as holy warriors in the Emperors service! They see the Bolter as an instrument of divine wrath! They lead dogmatic lives [Between combat] of prayer [To the Emperor and to appease Their holy wargear] meditation and study [Mostly of the Codex which many view as scripture] Yet most would scoff at the deluded Black Templars as fanatics for believing the Emperor is a god or that gods exist at all 

 

Its peak 40k for me 

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

2 hours ago, Arkangilos said:

It’s common knowledge that the emperor failed at that. Also Chaplains came from the word bearers, who were religious.

 

I would give you that most 30k marines were not religious. But by the time you get to 40K they are religious.

Citation needed that most are religious.

 

lexicanum uses much more vague phraseology simply saying many view the emperor as just a man to be revered, and not a god.

 

the inverse of many is few, both terms are pretty relative, but the fact that the term many has an inverse, and many are not religious means that few chapters are religious.

Edited May 12, 2023 by Inquisitor_Lensoven

[Marshal Reinhard]

2 minutes ago, Inquisitor_Lensoven said:

Citation needed that most are religious.

 

lexicanum uses much more vague phraseology simply saying many view the emperor as just a man to be revered, and not a god.

 

the inverse of many is few, both terms are pretty relative, but the fact that the term many has an inverse, and many are not religious means that few chapters are religious.

religiosity does not neccessitate the deification of the Emperor.

[Arkangilos]

9 minutes ago, Inquisitor_Lensoven said:

Citation needed that most are religious.

 

lexicanum uses much more vague phraseology simply saying many view the emperor as just a man to be revered, and not a god.

 

the inverse of many is few, both terms are pretty relative, but the fact that the term many has an inverse, and many are not religious means that few chapters are religious.

What @Marshal Reinhardsaid is the case, and I’ve already said it.

 

Not all religion has a god. Not all religious people worship a supreme being. 

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

2 hours ago, Marshal Reinhard said:

religiosity does not neccessitate the deification of the Emperor.

Sure there are non-theistic religions, but what aspects of religion do marines express aside from titles of office?

Edited May 12, 2023 by Inquisitor_Lensoven

[Kallas]

15 minutes ago, Inquisitor_Lensoven said:

what aspects of religion do marines express aside from titles of office?

Someone listed them earlier:

19 hours ago, Arkangilos said:

litanies, prayers, liturgies, chaplains, priesthoods, rites, etc

and

3 hours ago, WARMASTER_ said:

They lead dogmatic lives [Between combat] of prayer [To the Emperor and to appease Their holy wargear] meditation and study [Mostly of the Codex which many view as scripture]

 

Marines lead religious lives, and have many practices that most would could religious practices, but Marines generally don't consider themselves to be religious.

[Arkangilos]

19 minutes ago, Inquisitor_Lensoven said:

Sure there are not theistic religions, but what aspects of religion do marines express aside from titles of office?

I gave the whole list of them:

Relics treated the same way Catholics treat them.

Monastic and Militant Religious Order practices including a rule (see the Templar order rule and the Rule of St. Benedict, Rule of St. Augustine, Rule of St. Dominic, etc).

Liturgies

Litanies

Sense of Martyrdom

etc. 

Edited May 12, 2023 by Arkangilos

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

12 minutes ago, Kallas said:

Someone listed them earlier:

and

 

Marines lead religious lives, and have many practices that most would could religious practices, but Marines generally don't consider themselves to be religious.

Litanies for example are not inherently religious.

 

what recent lore examples are there of marines praying? 
 

chaplain is just a title. Before BA had chappies they had wardens. The wardens had nothing to do with religion, but they were eventually renamed chaplains even though they initially denied the loaning of word bearers’ chaplains they eventually renamed the wardens to chaplains.

 

titles and name of things is the only things really tying marines as a whole to religion.

i can call my home a church or a cathedral, doesn’t make me a priest.

 

[Marshal Reinhard]

27 minutes ago, Inquisitor_Lensoven said:

Sure there are not theistic religions, but what aspects of religion do marines express aside from titles of office?

They're pretty much warrior monks in space, hadn't you noticed? Everything about them is steeped in religious language.

They wear and wield holy relics and arms. They carry out sacred charges, undertake holy crusades, if they fail they might undertake penance. They swear oaths. They pray. Chaplains vanguard their spiritual health. They're angels of His making. I don't know what to tell you if you can't see the blatant religiosity at display

 

Here's the monologue of the ultramarine in the recent armoring of a space marine video:

 

I accept these burdens as the Imperium bleeds.

I accept these burdens knowing no fear.

I accept these burdens as an angel of the Emperor.

I sheathe my form in the second skin, this veil of machine muscles and false nerves

I stand firm against the alien, the mutant, the heretic,

I grant no mercy, I give no ground.

With humility I bear the Imperialis, the symbol of loyalty unbroken.

With reverence I recieve actuation, awakening the armor's spirit.

With pride I were the symbol of my chapter and join my brothers in war.

 

Sounds like a prayer doesn't it? And ultramarines aren't on the level of black templars here.

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

17 minutes ago, Arkangilos said:

I gave the whole list of them:

Relics treated the same way Catholics treat them.

Monastic and Militant Religious Order practices including a rule (see the Templar order rule and the Rule of St. Benedict, Rule of St. Augustine, Rule of St. Dominic, etc).

Liturgies

Litanies

Sense of Martyrdom

etc. 

Have you looked up the definitions of litany and liturgy?

their common use is most certainly related to religion, but they are not inherently religious.

 

most US military branches treat many relics and the like in nearly religious manner, that doesn’t mean the US military has their own religion. The USN even has a sailors creed

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

4 minutes ago, Marshal Reinhard said:

They're pretty much warrior monks in space, hadn't you noticed? Everything about them is steeped in religious language.

They wear and wield holy relics and arms. They carry out sacred charges, undertake holy crusades, if they fail they might undertake penance. They swear oaths. They pray. Chaplains vanguard their spiritual health. They're angels of His making. I don't know what to tell you if you can't see the blatant religiosity at display

 

Here's the monologue of the ultramarine in the recent armoring of a space marine video:

 

I accept these burdens as the Imperium bleeds.

I accept these burdens knowing no fear.

I accept these burdens as an angel of the Emperor.

I sheathe my form in the second skin, this veil of machine muscles and false nerves

I stand firm against the alien, the mutant, the heretic,

I grant no mercy, I give no ground.

With humility I bear the Imperialis, the symbol of loyalty unbroken.

With reverence I recieve actuation, awakening the armor's spirit.

With pride I were the symbol of my chapter and join my brothers in war.

 

Sounds like a prayer doesn't it? And ultramarines aren't on the level of black templars here.

Only 2 things in that sound remotely religious. Angel, and spirit.

 

at best they’re spiritual.

[Marshal Reinhard]

EDIT: Realize you might actually be reffering only to the monologue script from the video part, I suppose, rather than suggesting there's no religious connotation to the words "Holy, sacred, etc", hence I'll edit my post.

Edited May 12, 2023 by Marshal Reinhard

[Kallas]

21 minutes ago, Inquisitor_Lensoven said:

Litanies for example are not inherently religious.

Seems like they are, from their etymology.

 

21 minutes ago, Inquisitor_Lensoven said:

chaplain is just a title

With overt religious connotations. Most modern uses of Chaplain are religious, including back to early 40k.

 

22 minutes ago, Inquisitor_Lensoven said:

titles and name of things is the only things really tying marines as a whole to religion.

They're the only things you agree are religious - but you're completely ignoring the other things that they do that are religious, such as having Chaplains that lead them in prayer.

[Arkangilos]

56 minutes ago, Inquisitor_Lensoven said:

most US military branches treat many relics and the like in nearly religious manner

Do they make pilgrimages to the displayed bones and think they have special properties? 
 

And yeah, if a veteran makes a pilgrimage to the exposed bones of a fallen hero with the idea it would benefit him, I would absolutely say that is religious.

 

Same with weapons. If a soldier, in order to bring out a special weapon, had entire rites and ceremonies *just to use it* , I would absolutely say it was religious.

 

They have psalms and canticles to activate their gear, in which they incense it. That is religious.

 

The Sanguinary Priesthood refers to the “Cult of Sanguinius” (cult in this case being the proper use of it, as in religious devotion).

 

We have literally given you a whole list of religious things and you ignore them *in their whole*. Yeah, a chaplain by itself may no longer be religious, but a chaplain with liturgies, litanies, prayers, incense, rites, monastic rules, relics, hero worship, etc. *together* means it *is* religious.

 

Also yes, creeds are religious practices.

 

Oh snap, I forgot about how they use terms such as “Heresy”, “Heretic”, “Spiritual Purity” “Faith” and “Damnation”. They also talk about souls.

Edited May 12, 2023 by Arkangilos

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

1 hour ago, Kallas said:

Seems like they are, from their etymology.

 

With overt religious connotations. Most modern uses of Chaplain are religious, including back to early 40k.

 

They're the only things you agree are religious - but you're completely ignoring the other things that they do that are religious, such as having Chaplains that lead them in prayer.

etymology means nothing, definitions have meaning...like literally are the meanings of the words...

litany
https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/litany 
as you see there are 4 definitions, 3/4 of those are not related to religion

liturgy
https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/liturgy
again, non-religious usage, that fits with the context of 40k

Edited May 12, 2023 by Inquisitor_Lensoven