Why do I keep hearing "Space Marine's are unrelatable"?

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

42 minutes ago, Arkangilos said:

Do they make pilgrimages to the displayed bones and think they have special properties? 
 

And yeah, if a veteran makes a pilgrimage to the exposed bones of a fallen hero with the idea it would benefit him, I would absolutely say that is religious.

 

Same with weapons. If a soldier, in order to bring out a special weapon, had entire rites and ceremonies *just to use it* , I would absolutely say it was religious.

 

They have psalms and canticles to activate their gear, in which they incense it. That is religious.

 

The Sanguinary Priesthood refers to the “Cult of Sanguinius” (cult in this case being the proper use of it, as in religious devotion).

 

We have literally given you a whole list of religious things and you ignore them *in their whole*. Yeah, a chaplain by itself may no longer be religious, but a chaplain with liturgies, litanies, prayers, incense, rites, monastic rules, relics, hero worship, etc. *together* means it *is* religious.

 

Also yes, creeds are religious practices.

 

Oh snap, I forgot about how they use terms such as “Heresy”, “Heretic”, “Spiritual Purity” “Faith” and “Damnation”. They also talk about souls.

bones? no, but remains in general? yes. many american service members will make a 'pilgrimage' to the tomb of the unknown soldier in DC, or the USS arizona memorial in pearl harbor.
the US marines especially treat their unit colors with what some might refer to as 'holy' reverence. 

https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/cult
 

oh look cult means a great devotion to a person, book, film, idea, etc. 

you have not provided evidence of religiousness, you have thrown out words as if the words themselves prove a point, while ignoring the fact that there is common usage of those words that is non-religious.

https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/creed

oh look, a creed is a fundamental set of beliefs...just like the sailor's creed (though the creation of that was pure stupidity, and it is completely asinine.)

we have gotten way off topic at this point, so i'm done arguing with people whose own faith has blinded them to facts that words have meaning outside of religion.

Edited May 12, 2023 by Inquisitor_Lensoven

[Arkangilos]

5 minutes ago, Inquisitor_Lensoven said:

bones? no, but remains in general? yes. many american service members will make a 'pilgrimage' to the tomb of the unknown soldier in DC, or the USS arizona memorial in pearl harbor.
the US marines especially treat their unit colors with what some might refer to as 'holy' reverence. 

That is Religious.

 

5 minutes ago, Inquisitor_Lensoven said:

oh look cult means a great devotion to a person, book, film, idea, etc. 

Which is religious.

 

5 minutes ago, Inquisitor_Lensoven said:

oh look, a creed is a fundamental set of beliefs...

Which is religious.

 

(countable) A particular system of such belief, and the rituals and practices proper to it.

 

 

1. .
2. A particular variety of such belief, especially when organized into a system of doctrine and practice.
3. A set of beliefs, values, and practices based on the teachings of a spiritual leader.

Edited May 12, 2023 by Arkangilos

[Arkangilos]

8 minutes ago, Inquisitor_Lensoven said:

we have gotten way off topic at this point, so i'm done arguing with people whose own faith has blinded them to facts that words have meaning outside of religion.

Bro, it is literally you who is refusing to acknowledge what even the 40K lore says. 

[WARMASTER_]

 

11 hours ago, Inquisitor_Lensoven said:

we have gotten way off topic at this point, so i'm done arguing with people whose own faith has blinded them to facts that words have meaning outside of religion.

Im struggling to see the arguments you’re making in regards to them not being religious or accepting any of the other clearly religious terms [Rites, Holy warriors, Prayers etc] but if you need direct Religious terminology…

 

They're Angels of Death that live in Fortress Monastery’s who prosecute Crusades in the Emperor name…

[The Neverborn]

Just a gentle reminder that this wasn't a discussion about what is meant by the word "Religion" and whether or not Space Marines" are religious. If that's the discussion you want to have i'd kindly request starting a new thread.

[Sea Creature]

"The lore for Black Templars they used to not revere the Emperor."
 

As you noted I meant they did not believe he was a god.

[WARMASTER_]

3 hours ago, The Neverborn said:

Just a gentle reminder that this wasn't a discussion about what is meant by the word "Religion" and whether or not Space Marines" are religious. If that's the discussion you want to have i'd kindly request starting a new thread.

I actually think the “pseudo” religious zealot aspect of 40k Marines is another strong reason as to why they’re almost completely unrelatable to us in 2023 Terra 

 

While yes marines share many of the same human emotions, Pride, Wrath, Faith etc their entire existence is completely alien to us!
 

By every single metric not one of them has lived a “normal human experience” Most are stolen as children from hellish death worlds, regressed tribal warrior cultures or hives kill gangs. Most are also already killers by 10 and few that aren't soon will be, often having to kill other initiates to survive and progress through the most brutal trails imaginable. Those that do progress will be indoctrinated both spiritually and neurologically, operated upon [Usually awake] to enhance them almost past humanity to be forever changed by their ascension into what can only be described as 7ft tall mono maniacal, psycho scoured killing machines

 

Marines that are presented in the lore as anything close to human are in my opinion just poorly portrayed by an author either can’t convey or doesn’t grasp just how horrible [and alien] a creation they truly are! I’m reminded of a quote from the late + great Alan Bligh from the Badab War 

 

“This evidence, taken together
with their recorded actions, builds into a profile both sinister and suggestive, and perhaps presents a truth about Space Marines in general. That beyond their martial trappings and the endless roll of glorious victories, doomed last stands and courage in the face of
a hostile and deadly universe, a Space Marine fundamentally is a superhuman engine built, bred and trained for war; an Angel of Death
- a monster by any other name”

 

Or another from Gav Thorpe about the challenges about writing Marines [While i don’t like his novels he clearly deeply understands the lore] 

 

“Space Marines are superhuman, psycho-indoctrinated killing machines. What sort of story could they have that was interesting? What sort of characters would they be that would suit a novel?”

Space marines aren’t “relatable” but all the reasons why they not also makes them one the deepest and interesting factions within 40k 

Edited May 13, 2023 by WARMASTER_

[WARMASTER_]

 

18 hours ago, Inquisitor_Lensoven said:

what recent lore examples are there of marines praying? 

Here’s 3 lore examples of marines praying 

 

Armouring of a space marine

“Praying to his holy Bolter” before being armoured in front of an altar while intoning litanies? Seems kind of on the nose to me 

 

Space Marines again praying 

 

3rd edition space marine codex had an example of a marines full day off the battlefield where he prays three times a day I can’t find the photo immediately so here the lexicanum page with all the same information from the codex 

 

https://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Daily_rituals_of_a_Space_Marine

 

 

[The Neverborn]

You don't need to link evidence to me on whether space marines are or are not religious.

 

The answer is overwhelming yes they are. But you can find books where individuals are not, e.g. Saul Tarvitz who to the best of my knowledge was not religious. The question was not directed toward "40k Space Marines".

 

I'd also point out that depending on your Author the religious aspects may or may not be featured in the book. - This topic was originally posted in the Horus Heresy sub forums as that is the majority.

 

I think we need to consider these are books with fictional Characters. James Bond, Harry Potter and Bruce Wayne and others all live lives that are not a "normal human experience". I've not heard people refer to these characters as unrelatedable  with such consistency however.

 

But to answer my question. It would seem some readers, like yourself,  are unable to relate to them due to the lore behind their creation. Though I would point out that it's not something that is not referenced at length in every  book. I'd be willing to have a bet with some of the books you could give a reader who didn't have the knowledge of the two above posts and they would be unable to decern that.

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

1 hour ago, WARMASTER_ said:

 

Here’s 3 lore examples of marines praying 

 

Armouring of a space marine

“Praying to his holy Bolter” before being armoured in front of an altar while intoning litanies? Seems kind of on the nose to me 

 

Space Marines again praying 

 

3rd edition space marine codex had an example of a marines full day off the battlefield where he prays three times a day I can’t find the photo immediately so here the lexicanum page with all the same information from the codex 

 

https://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Daily_rituals_of_a_Space_Marine

 

 

3rd edition isn’t a recent example seeing as it’s nearly 30 years old.

 

a man kneeling with a sword head bowed. Didn’t know a moment of silence was now a prayer.

[The Neverborn]

2 hours ago, WARMASTER_ said:

 

 

 

Marines that are presented in the lore as anything close to human are in my opinion just poorly portrayed by an author either can’t convey or doesn’t grasp just how horrible [and alien] a creation they truly are! I’m reminded of a quote from the late + great Alan Bligh from the Badab War 

 

 

 

Though I do like this answer.

 

@Inquisitor_Lensoven

Maybe you missed it,  but for a 2nd time i'd ask you to start your own topic on if you think or do not think a Space Marines is religious.

 

That was probably unfair as @Warmaster_  did somewhat encourage that response 

Edited May 13, 2023 by The Neverborn
Trying to keep it on topic and not take sides.

[Arkangilos]

20 minutes ago, Inquisitor_Lensoven said:

a man kneeling with a sword head bowed. Didn’t know a moment of silence was now a prayer.

I simply cannot believe you are so stubborn that you can watch the armoring of a space marine video and not believe they are religious. 
 

Like you are deliberately ignoring everything. 

Edited May 13, 2023 by Arkangilos

[Arkangilos]

1 hour ago, Inquisitor_Lensoven said:

3rd edition isn’t a recent example seeing as it’s nearly 30 years old.

 

a man kneeling with a sword head bowed. Didn’t know a moment of silence was now a prayer.

Here is something from the 9th edition codex, page 30, the Reclusiam:

“

A Chapter's Reclusiam is a hallowed place. Reverent silence is punctuated only by Chaplains chanting liturgies and administering rites, and the gentle footfalls of robe-wearing serfs. Shrines line its alcove walls, dedicated to fallen heroes, the Chapter's Primarch and holy relics from the brotherhood's glorious history.

The Reclusiam is a place of immense cultural and spiritual significance to a Space Marine Chapter. This central shrine is the primary place where prayer and worship is conducted, though most

Chapter fleet vessels have their own cathedrums and chapels for those Space Marines on campaign. In the Reclusiam the Chapter's Chaplains, led by the Master of Sanctity and Reclusiarch, preserve ancient traditions, conduct meditations and perform ceremonies of indoctrination, vindication and inauguration. To Space Marines, these are no less vital to their purpose as warriors than their skill at arms, the maintenance of their battle gear and their honour roll.

…

 

In stark contrast to the deep care they take of their own Chapter's relics,

Chaplains make it their task to topple xenos idols, cast down false prophets, purge heretical shrines and destroy heathen artefacts and lore. This they do with iron-hard conviction, exhorting their brothers to do the same.

The Chaplains themselves are the Chapter's spiritual authorities and wrathful warrior-priests. They are regarded with awed respect by their battle-brothers for their incredible strength of will and selfless dedication to the Chapter, as well as for their faultless knowledge of the Chapter's

From the moment of his induction to the day of his death, a Space Marine will interact with a Chaplain on a daily basis.

 

They are notoriously fiery and strict, quickly roused to anger by the hated enemy and closely observant of every brother of the Chapter for lapses in devotion. For all their grim demeanour, Chaplains care deeply for the spiritual well-being of their brothers. Their booming oratory of the Chapter's tenets and dogmas is intended to armour their brothers from heresy and instil in them the humility, integrity and honour worthy of the Emperor's finest warriors and servants

 

From the moment of his induction to the day of his death, a Space Marine will interact with a Chaplain on a daily basis.

As an aspirant and neophyte, his spiritual and cultural training will be conducted by the Chaplaincy. As a fully fledged battle-brother, he will be led in prayer by and fight alongside his company's Chaplain, a most respected warrior, advisor and officer who accompanies his charges into the hell of battle again and again with inspiring, zealous fury.”

From page 117 we have this: 

“Purity seals record not so much honors as blessings given by the Chapter’s Chaplains… the chaplains chant litanies before affixing it…”

And from page 137:

“…and never is this spiritual fortification more vital…”

“Chaplains are the guardians of the Chapter’s spirits and protectors of its warriors’ souls.”

Edited May 13, 2023 by Arkangilos

[WARMASTER_]

2 hours ago, The Neverborn said:

You don't need to link evidence to me on whether space marines are or are not religious.

 

The answer is overwhelming yes they are. But you can find books where individuals are not, e.g. Saul Tarvitz who to the best of my knowledge was not religious. The question was not directed toward "40k Space Marines".

 

I'd also point out that depending on your Author the religious aspects may or may not be featured in the book. - This topic was originally posted in the Horus Heresy sub forums as that is the majority.

 

I think we need to consider these are books with fictional Characters. James Bond, Harry Potter and Bruce Wayne and others all live lives that are not a "normal human experience". I've not heard people refer to these characters as unrelatedable  with such consistency however.

 

But to answer my question. It would seem some readers, like yourself,  are unable to relate to them due to the lore behind their creation. Though I would point out that it's not something that is not referenced at length in every  book. I'd be willing to have a bet with some of the books you could give a reader who didn't have the knowledge of the two above posts and they would be unable to decern that.

As 30k vs 40k space marines are almost completely different in terms of character, Dogma and cult I’ll just focus on answering your later points as that’s a whole other topic within its self 

 

I think unfortunately you’re using bad examples here as all these characters very much still “normal” humans for the most part, each has fantastically aspects to their character or story but each is also an inherently good person with modern day values and ideals [for the most part] where as a space marine has none of that… He’s genetically wrought killer, a sociopathic by any other name who had his humanity stripped away by both physical and neurological surgeries + psycho and spiritual indoctrination until all that’s left is a psycho scoured murder in power armour, send out protect a fascist totalitarian empire, who’d for the most part think nothing of tearing apart innocents with a Chainblade who had the unfortunate luck of being on a world that has turned to insurrection 

 

For ever glorious last stand or forlorn hope there’s just as many brutal suppressions carried out on unknowing innocents in the name of the Imperium

 

So yes while Harry Potter might cast spells he’s also very much just a teenager going through trauma, school lessons and awkwardly finding love thing most of us can easily relate too something that clearly can’t be said for the 7ft tall killing machine who was kidnapped from a death world by a monster in power armour at 10 and subjected to both psychological and physical torture until he became weapon 

 

 

Edited May 13, 2023 by WARMASTER_

[The Neverborn]

I've actually not read any 40k books that feature space marine protagonists. But i'm sticking to my guns the 30k Marines are still "Marines". And the level of violence is comparable to something like Ripley from Alien. The indoctrinated killer doesn't come across in the books, with the exceptions of those that side with Chaos.

Edited May 13, 2023 by The Neverborn

[Arkangilos]

14 minutes ago, The Neverborn said:

The indoctrinated killer doesn't come across in the books, with the exceptions of those that side with Chaos.

That’s because indoctrinated killer doesn’t mean they just slaughter people. It just means when the time comes for whatever reason they can do it without hesitation and without remorse. 
 

Genestealer cults have families and emotions, and dreams of a better life (they are just misguided). Space Marines don’t care. They kill pull the trigger without a second thought. No reeducation. No working out anything. Just a bullet.

 

Same with heretics and mutants. 
 

Same with Eldar. There is an episode of hammer and bolter (that is clearly anti-imperial propaganda) in which an Eldar child saw a space marine purge his people (and his mother) in front of him. The Eldar child was crying and visibly upset, the space marines were just having a good ordered time. No regret.

Edited May 13, 2023 by Arkangilos

[Arkangilos]

26 minutes ago, The Neverborn said:

I've actually not read any 40k books that feature space marine protagonists. But i'm sticking to my guns the 30k Marines are still "Marines". And the level of violence is comparable to something like Ripley from Alien. The indoctrinated killer doesn't come across in the books, with the exceptions of those that side with Chaos.

I’d check out Sanguinius: the Great Angel and Echoes of Eternity (there are a couple of chapters in there set during the Great Crusade with the Revenant Legion, and Amit in particular killing a wounded soldier just to experience her memories).

[WARMASTER_]

1 hour ago, The Neverborn said:

I've actually not read any 40k books that feature space marine protagonists. But i'm sticking to my guns the 30k Marines are still "Marines". And the level of violence is comparable to something like Ripley from Alien. The indoctrinated killer doesn't come across in the books, with the exceptions of those that side with Chaos.

The level of violence is in no way comparable to Alien…. You have seen what marines do right? Even in 30k they conquered [Subjugated] 1000000 or so worlds mostly through mass violence! That’s not just alien worlds either they mostly set out to reunite the disparate strands of humanity, any of which didn’t comply were either subject to the horrific killers humanity has made [Space Marines] or in extreme cases received Exterminatus through Viral or Fire bombing an atmosphere turning it into molten air 

 

They do all this supported by a vast army of indentured slaves and lobotomised half mechanical servants don’t forget… even In 30k 

 

The very weapons space Marines use would turn anyone sane persons stomach, Bolt Rounds explode inside their targets, Chainblades quite literally tear something apart in a shower of gore and viscera!
 

I’m not saying marine characters can’t be likeable! Of course they can be, there’s a 40k Night Lords trilogy where we follow a rather likeable traitor named Talos… He’s fair, righteous, polite he even values his slaves!… He also throws thousands innocent woman and children into “skinning pits” and creates a psychic shriek from torturing so many innocent people at once it creates a warp scream that travels sectors killing I believe [it’s been a while since a read the book] millions of imperial citizens! just because someone is likeable doesn’t make them relatable, I really liked Talos even though even single fibre of my being would be opposed to him if he was real as he’d be the worst human to ever live 

Edited May 13, 2023 by WARMASTER_
Spelling

[The Neverborn]

11 hours ago, Arkangilos said:

I’d check out Sanguinius: the Great Angel and Echoes of Eternity (there are a couple of chapters in there set during the Great Crusade with the Revenant Legion, and Amit in particular killing a wounded soldier just to experience her memories).

 

Seems like you're saying, "read this the characters are totally unrelatable" so i'll probably pass.

 

10 hours ago, WARMASTER_ said:

The level of violence is in no way comparable to Alien…. You have seen what marines do right? Even in 30k they conquered [Subjugated] 1000000 or so worlds mostly through mass violence! That’s not just alien worlds either they mostly set out to reunite the disparate strands of humanity, any of which didn’t comply were either subject to the horrific killers humanity has made [Space Marines] or in extreme cases received Exterminatus through Viral or Fire bombing an atmosphere turning it into molten air 

 

While you are correct. In an overall sense. Within the books you don't see this you would only know that if you had a wider range around you. Which you do.

 

I'm going to bring up our Friend Saul Tarvitz, while he would have done all this it's not detailed in the books. I'm not even sure if within the books he even kills any non-astartes.

[WARMASTER_]

@The Neverborn So then we have our answer, what you’re saying is “I like these specific examples or aspects of certain space marines so I find them relatable” which is completely understandable. What I’ve been saying is though don’t be surprised if people can’t quite comprehend your feeling as while I love space marines [They're my favourite faction] I wouldn’t for a second find one relatable when you take them for what they really are which is inhuman monsters 

[The Neverborn]

21 minutes ago, WARMASTER_ said:

@The Neverborn So then we have our answer, what you’re saying is “I like these specific examples or aspects of certain space marines so I find them relatable” which is completely understandable. What I’ve been saying is though don’t be surprised if people can’t quite comprehend your feeling as while I love space marines [They're my favourite faction] I wouldn’t for a second find one relatable when you take them for what they really are which is inhuman monsters 

I can accept that answer.

[The Neverborn]

On 5/11/2023 at 10:56 PM, The Neverborn said:

The disparagement of my character notwithstanding. Feeling we're somewhat getting off topic.

 

So the member can't relate to a Space Marine?

 

But in a Bizarre and Ironic way they've provided a fantastic answer. They are unwilling to relate to Space Marines as they kill things, all be those things, fictional things.

 

My Favourite Space Marine is Natheniel Garro. While he has killed things most of those thing's aren't really alive, I think he's a really good character. During the series he goes through a period of growth and personal development, loss, finding one's place sadness.

 

Saul Tarvitz is would also be up there.

 

There we go. Some people are unwilling to relate to Space Marines as they kills (fictional) things and are religious Zealots. Though I would point out that many of the 30k Marines, e.g. Saul Tarvitz aren't religious at all.

 

Just occurred to me this seems the be the same answer as I've already got.

 

That's the reason then.

[Dracos]

I feel sorry for some of us on here. Human relatability has nothing to do with physical or lack of physical prowess. 
 

It has everything to do with your own humanity and acceptance of its wide range of character traits.  We are not all fearless but we should be able to relate to courage. We are not all pious but we should be able to believe in a power greater than ourselves. Etc 

In my own readings of most novels I’ve read the young initiate volunteers to take the test to become eligible to be a marine. 
 

 

it’s just my opinion but if you can’t relate to a someone because of their physical differences or their willingness to sacrifice a piece of their humanity to protect someone weaker than themselves … then the problem might be with the width of your own perspective of what it is to be human. 

 

[Arkangilos]

8 hours ago, The Neverborn said:

Seems like you're saying, "read this the characters are totally unrelatable" so i'll probably pass.

I was suggesting those books because they contradict you saying that the Space Marines are no more violent than in aliens. 
 

I’ve been saying from the beginning I still find those characters relatable. 

Edited May 14, 2023 by Arkangilos

[The Neverborn]

43 minutes ago, Arkangilos said:

I was suggesting those books because they contradict you saying that the Space Marines are no more violent than in aliens. 
 

I’ve been saying from the beginning I still find those characters relatable. 

 

I can see why you think that was the assertion I was making, allow me to clear that up.

 

They are books where the level of Violence is comparable to the Alien film.  

 

To say that no books exist that don't have a greater level of violence than Alien would be absurd and I would have to have read every Book published to make the comment. The point I was making with that not all space marines in every book detail the level of violence they are capable of. 

Edited May 14, 2023 by The Neverborn