Why do I keep hearing "Space Marine's are unrelatable"?

[Bryan Blaire]

21 hours ago, The Neverborn said:

I can see why you think that was the assertion I was making, allow me to clear that up.

 

They are books where the level of Violence is comparable to the Alien film.  

 

To say that no books exist that don't have a greater level of violence than Alien would be absurd and I would have to have read every Book published to make the comment. The point I was making with that not all space marines in every book detail the level of violence they are capable of. 

So you dispute Marines being not relatable because the books aren’t correctly depicting them?  That’s what it sounds like you are saying to me: “I can relate to the Marines from the Heresy because they aren’t depicted in all books with the horrendous level of violence (against humans and non-humans) to the extent they actually should be shown to achieve what we are told they achieved.”

 

And yes, Marines in the Heresy are more relatable than Marines in 40K - they are more human-like in mentality.  There are some, me included, who think that is part of why the Heresy actually happened.

[The Neverborn]

2 hours ago, Bryan Blaire said:

So you dispute Marines being not relatable because the books aren’t correctly depicting them?  That’s what it sounds like you are saying to me: “I can relate to the Marines from the Heresy because they aren’t depicted in all books with the horrendous level of violence (against humans and non-humans) to the extent they actually should be shown to achieve what we are told they achieved.”

 

And yes, Marines in the Heresy are more relatable than Marines in 40K - they are more human-like in mentality.  There are some, me included, who think that is part of why the Heresy actually happened.

 

That’s not accurate reflection of my position.
 

the bit about poorly written was resided by another poster he did a good job explaining it which I’m not going to try and repeat as he said it very well.

 

I can relate to specific Marines for their individual stories. 

[The Neverborn]

As I was typing that out I’m no longer if you’re original state is actually in accurate it would depend on what you mean by “Correctly depicting”

 
I find (some of them) relatable.  
 

I feel that we would get into the very subtle specifics or what “correct” means.

 

the part about individual stories stands though.

[Bryan Blaire]

11 minutes ago, The Neverborn said:

That’s not accurate reflection of my position.
 

the bit about poorly written was resided by another poster he did a good job explaining it which I’m not going to try and repeat as he said it very well.

 

I can relate to specific Marines for their individual stories. 

Right - you can relate to specific Marines for their individual stories - which are not written to reflect the sheer level of combat and brutality that they would have seen in a century or more of duty (you said, and I quote “our Friend Saul Tarvitz, while he would have done all this it's not detailed in the books”) that is not depicted, likely due to publishing rules for stories out of Black Library.

 

That’s okay, but it is also a pretty cherry-picked selection, as the indication to read some books that do show a more excessive Marine combat was specifically declined.

 

All of us can find some way to relate to some of the most basic needs of Marines, even if it’s only the need eat something - that doesn’t mean we need to be or are a fan of the overwhelming brutality they commit in the Imperium’s name.

[The Neverborn]

43 minutes ago, Bryan Blaire said:

Right - you can relate to specific Marines for their individual stories - which are not written to reflect the sheer level of combat and brutality that they would have seen in a century or more of duty (you said, and I quote “our Friend Saul Tarvitz, while he would have done all this it's not detailed in the books”) that is not depicted, likely due to publishing rules for stories out of Black Library.

 

That’s okay, but it is also a pretty cherry-picked selection, as the indication to read some books that do show a more excessive Marine combat was specifically declined.

 

Agreed.

 

The original point was that why some people find no space marines relatable.

 

And As you've already indicated by my cherry picked examples I only relate to some marines. And I'd admit to not jumping at the idea of reading books that feature exclusively unrelatable Marines.

[Bryan Blaire]

1 hour ago, The Neverborn said:

The original point was that why some people find no space marines relatable.

 

And As you've already indicated by my cherry picked examples I only relate to some marines. And I'd admit to not jumping at the idea of reading books that feature exclusively unrelatable Marines.

And the reason that easily addresses/answers that original point as to why they find no Space Marines relatable is that they are not cherry-picking their examples, and are applying what they know about the wider amount of Space Marines to all Space Marines, whether 30K or 40K.

 

The title of the thread is “Why do I keep hearing "Space Marine's are unrelatable"?”, not your more narrow “Horus Heresy Marines are relatable, here’s why” concept in the your post - people have shown why they don’t relate to Marines as a whole, with little differentiation between 30K & 40K for their reasoning.

 

If you aren’t willing to read the books that have given people this kind of impression, then you aren’t going to relate to their view - in which case you are committing the same activity that you are saying irritates you about people that say “Space Marines are unrelatable” - you are specifically avoiding something that could allow you to relate to their point, just as reading the HH books you have indicated could allow them to relate to your point.

 

I also don’t think that anyone is specifically obligated to attempt to relate to anyone, so it doesn’t matter except to the person in question whether they actually want to attempt it.  If what they know leads them to believe that something else is detestable to the point of not attempting/wanting to try to relate, that’s a decision for that person, and not for me to decide for anyone else.

 

As I have said, personally, I find Marines relatable in some tiny fashion regardless of how inhuman an author’s story might make them out to be - we can find relatable elements in even the most deplorable of the universe, as even the very alien often has some tiny element of commonality - even the ‘Nids have the ‘advancement of the collective’ concept that can be related to, even if nothing else about them might allow one to relate.

Edited May 15, 2023 by Bryan Blaire

[The Neverborn]

1 hour ago, Bryan Blaire said:

The title of the thread is “Why do I keep hearing "Space Marine's are unrelatable"?”, not your more narrow “Horus Heresy Marines are relatable, here’s why” concept in the your post - people have shown why they don’t relate to Marines as a whole, with little differentiation between 30K & 40K for their reasoning.

 

If you aren’t willing to read the books that have given people this kind of impression, then you aren’t going to relate to their view - in which case you are committing the same activity that you are saying irritates you about people that say “Space Marines are unrelatable” - you are specifically avoiding something that could allow you to relate to their point, just as reading the HH books you have indicated could allow them to relate to your point.

 

 

My reasoning is Horus Hersey Marines can be relatable. Horus Hersey Marines are Marines. So Marines can be relatable.

 

It's taken me a bit (I've deleted an re-wttien this several times) but i think I'm with you.

 

"Imagine a world I'd never read the books with relatable Marines, and only read the ones with one with unrelatable ones" Then yes I'd probably say that. Though personally I'd say there's, in my opinion at least, a greater prerequisite with the party saying they are never relatable to read the books where they are relatable than the other way around. But I would accept that if the statement was changed subtly to "In the books I've read", it has an internal truth to it. But that's just me and I'd also acknowledge don't habitually add the "within my experience" caveat, when I make statements.

Edited May 15, 2023 by The Neverborn

[Rik Lightstar]

I think a lot of the to and fro in this discussion seems to be down to syntax and what certain words mean to different people.

 

The point on Religion is a great example:

• To some here anything with the trappings and associations of Religion such as rites, prayers and reverence of "relics" is enough to make them Religious.
• To others Religion is explicitly linked to Faith in a Deity or Deities, the presence of habits and routines can be present without Religion.

It's an entirely understandable point of confusion and both points of view have merit. We all have a tendency to look for points of commonality so if Religion/Faith is a large part of your life then you're likely to relate to those aspects. 

 

I think in all honesty it's an intentionally blurred line from GW on this front as they've developed the lore over the years. Allowing individuals to find the meaning they want in the source material.

 

 

 

Another example is the "Have no Fear" aspect which is something I think is being somewhat misunderstood:

• Fear is a natural human emotion, almost every human has the capacity for it.
• Bravery and Courage represent the ability to conquer your fear and confront the cause of it.

However Space Marines aren't Brave or Courageous, they don't conquer their fear. They are incapable of doing so as they literally on a biological level DO NOT EXPERIENCE FEAR. The emotion is absent from them completely, this isn't due to their faith or their training and indoctrination. The process of becoming a Space Marine removes the capacity to fear from them.

 

 

There are certainly aspects and attributes of Space Marines that can be related to, but I still feel that there are parts of their psyche and experiences that are and will remain alien to me. 

 

 

Rik

[The Neverborn]

This probably underlines your point but the full quote from my signature is 

 

It had often been said that a Space Marine knew no fear.

Such a statement was not literally true, a Space Marine could know fear, but he had the training and discipline to deal with it and not let it affect him in battle.

 

Captain Saul Tarvitz was no exception, he had faced storms of gunfire and monstrous aliens and even glimpsed the insane predators of the warp, but when Angron charged, he ran.

[Marshal Reinhard]

Yeah. My chapters Motto is "No pity! No Remorse! No fear!", which doesn't really make sense if they're literally incapable of experiencing these things. Rather its a reminder to continiously repress these things.

Edited May 17, 2023 by Marshal Reinhard

[WARMASTER_]

7 hours ago, Rik Lightstar said:

I think a lot of the to and fro in this discussion seems to be down to syntax and what certain words mean to different people.

 

The point on Religion is a great example:

• To some here anything with the trappings and associations of Religion such as rites, prayers and reverence of "relics" is enough to make them Religious.
• To others Religion is explicitly linked to Faith in a Deity or Deities, the presence of habits and routines can be present without Religion.

It's an entirely understandable point of confusion and both points of view have merit. We all have a tendency to look for points of commonality so if Religion/Faith is a large part of your life then you're likely to relate to those aspects. 

 

I think in all honesty it's an intentionally blurred line from GW on this front as they've developed the lore over the years. Allowing individuals to find the meaning they want in the source material.

 

 

 

Another example is the "Have no Fear" aspect which is something I think is being somewhat misunderstood:

• Fear is a natural human emotion, almost every human has the capacity for it.
• Bravery and Courage represent the ability to conquer your fear and confront the cause of it.

However Space Marines aren't Brave or Courageous, they don't conquer their fear. They are incapable of doing so as they literally on a biological level DO NOT EXPERIENCE FEAR. The emotion is absent from them completely, this isn't due to their faith or their training and indoctrination. The process of becoming a Space Marine removes the capacity to fear from them.

 

 

There are certainly aspects and attributes of Space Marines that can be related to, but I still feel that there are parts of their psyche and experiences that are and will remain alien to me. 

 

 

Rik

Whilst I agree with your view that syntax can often lead to misunderstanding between fratters [Ive seen and experienced it many times myself] I feel in this instance the misunderstanding is coming from a lack of understanding on the subject or at the very least wilful ignorance to see the clear and purposeful examples from the source material… Even within your two given structures of how faith or religion can be ascertained many parallels can still be drawn

 

To your first point as you say many easy examples can be drawn… Rites, Prayers, Liturgies, Chapter Cults, Holy Relics, Holy Wargear [They view the Bolter as an instrument of divine wrath] Crusade [Religious warfare] Fortress monastery’s, Chaplains, Reliquaries, rosarius, the list goes on and on…these words and their symbolism is only ever really linked to theology

 

To your second point about how some people only view religion as direct faith in a greater power… This still applies to all loyal Space Marines! They pray daily to the Emperor, even if they’re not part of the many Chapters who view him as a God, they’re all still known to venerate him in some form of ancestor worship. So If we look at all the examples I’ve given here i think you’d have an incredibly hard time arguing the religious connotations of a faction of warriors who refer to themselves as the “Angels of Death” 

 

In Regards to Space Marines not feeling fear I have to also disagree on this one it’s been meditated on many times by BL authors and all have the same general approach… Space Marines feel fear, they just overcome it’s affects through mental conditioning, We see them fear all the time just not in the conventional sense of fear of death or pain! A prime example is they fear Failure [at a duty undone or an oath broken by death or Dishonour] if they truly felt no fear they would be lessened in my estimation ten fold 

 

Here’s a few quotes from recent and old books 

Echoes of Eternity 

"We know fear,' Zephon said softly. "We are merely conditioned to overcome it.'

 

The Emperors Gift

“There was his pain, burning hot enough to bisect me. I felt his regret, his furious shame at dying with his duty unfinished. And I felt, without knowing such a thing was possible, his fear. The natural fear of a fallible, killable creature at last succumbing to death. I couldn’t think less of him for it. No amount of post-human manipulation could change what it meant to be alive, and the gravity of finally surrendering that gift.”

 

 

Edited May 16, 2023 by WARMASTER_
Grammar

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

returning to the original subject, i think marines were intentionally crafted in the lore to be hard to relate to. that's just me.

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

9 hours ago, WARMASTER_ said:

Whilst I agree with your view that syntax can often lead to misunderstanding between fratters [Ive seen and experienced it many times myself] I feel in this instance the misunderstanding is coming from a lack of understanding on the subject or at the very least wilful ignorance to see the clear and purposeful examples from the source material… Even within your two given structures of how faith or religion can be ascertained many parallels can still be drawn

 

To your first point as you say many easy examples can be drawn… Rites, Prayers, Liturgies, Chapter Cults, Holy Relics, Holy Wargear [They view the Bolter as an instrument of divine wrath] Crusade [Religious warfare] Fortress monastery’s, Chaplains, Reliquaries, rosarius, the list goes on and on…these words and their symbolism is only ever really linked to theology

 

To your second point about how some people only view religion as direct faith in a greater power… This still applies to all loyal Space Marines! They pray daily to the Emperor, even if they’re not part of the many Chapters who view him as a God, they’re all still known to venerate him in some form of ancestor worship. So If we look at all the examples I’ve given here i think you’d have an incredibly hard time arguing the religious connotations of a faction of warriors who refer to themselves as the “Angels of Death” 

 

In Regards to Space Marines not feeling fear I have to also disagree on this one it’s been meditated on many times by BL authors and all have the same general approach… Space Marines feel fear, they just overcome it’s affects through mental conditioning, We see them fear all the time just not in the conventional sense of fear of death or pain! A prime example is they fear Failure [at a duty undone or an oath broken by death or Dishonour] if they truly felt no fear they would be lessened in my estimation ten fold 

 

Here’s a few quotes from recent and old books 

Echoes of Eternity 

"We know fear,' Zephon said softly. "We are merely conditioned to overcome it.'

 

The Emperors Gift

“There was his pain, burning hot enough to bisect me. I felt his regret, his furious shame at dying with his duty unfinished. And I felt, without knowing such a thing was possible, his fear. The natural fear of a fallible, killable creature at last succumbing to death. I couldn’t think less of him for it. No amount of post-human manipulation could change what it meant to be alive, and the gravity of finally surrendering that gift.”

 

 

retconning marines to actually know fear, and just be super brave/courageous was disappointing to me, but humanizing marines makes it easier to sell books, so thats what they did.

personally in my head the ideal portrayal of marines as i understood them growing up in the game in the late 90s and early 00's (basically before the HH series) was that space marines didn't know the emotion fear, and most of them balanced on a fine line of having their own personalities, and having no personality. almost like non-comedic/parody version of Major Pain.  like you'd really have to dig or get to know a marine to see something resembling a personality, either that or an outsider might just get lucky enough to be in the right place at the right time to see a glimpse of personality.

some would have a little bit more personality, some a little bit less, but nothing like some of what i've seen in more recent books.

Edited May 17, 2023 by Inquisitor_Lensoven

[Dracos]

I read almost everything that was published on Space Marines in the early 90s and I never had the impression they were immune to fear. Maybe the Grey Knights but not Adeptus Astartes.

 

how about a simpler approach. Assuming all the literature on Space Marines is written by human authors, should it not follow that in someway we can find ways to relate, even if indirectly, to the subject matter ✌️

[Arkangilos]

18 hours ago, Inquisitor_Lensoven said:

retconning marines to actually know fear, and just be super brave/courageous was disappointing to me, but humanizing marines makes it easier to sell books, so thats what they did.

I don’t think it’s a retcon. I remember phrases about how they feel fear from as long ago as I can remember the hobby (which dates back to as long as I can physically remember).