Black Library fiction Gav Thorpe writing a Leagues of Votann novel

[BadgersinHills]

Gav Thorpe shared a screenshot of what he was working on on Twitter, titled "High Kahl's..." 

 

https://twitter.com/GavThorpeCreate/status/1655481596491776000?s=20

Edited May 8, 2023 by BadgersinHills

[gortonsfisherman]

That link doesn’t seem to work. Maybe he deleted it?

[Jscarlos18]

59 minutes ago, gortonsfisherman said:

That link doesn’t seem to work. Maybe he deleted it?

Yes, he has deleted his tweet.

[caladancid]

Terrible news. Maybe it was a late April Fools joke. 

[MithrilForge]

I guess he’s not to everyone’s taste, not everyone can be an ADB or John French… 

[Burni]

I predict they’ll abandon a battle at a pivotal moment to go after some secret salvage…

[Quantum]

All criticisms on Thorpe's writing aside, I hope that stories on the Leagues will delve deeper into their background. 

 

Because in my opinion the background presented in their Codex was far too superficial. Yes, they were Tolkienesque Dwarfs (in space!), just the way I like my Dwarfs, and had many of the aspects I come to expect (or should I say, demand) in Dwarfs: ancestor worship, mining, great craftsmanship, holding & nurturing grudges, etc. So in that regard they did not disappoint.

 

But as a faction/race they felt like they were practically dropped into the setting without bothering to explore how they would fit and interact in the setting. In the setting they are an offshoot of humanity, so even though most baseline humans would consider them filthy abhumans, the Imperium would still consider them de jure subject to the Emperor and (should be) part of the Imperium (one way or another, whether they liked it or not). And yet not a word in the codex is spent on how the Imperium deals with the fact that there is a de facto independent and large 'human' realm almost at the heart of its domain. What does Guilliman think about that empire in the middle of the Imperium that could be powerful allies, dangerous foes or anything in between? Not to mention the fact that they clearly have advanced technology and yet somehow the Adeptus Mechanics has not aggressively sought to acquire that tech even though that is their Omnissiahn given right and duty. Even the Leaguers themselves are presented more like a xeno race, glossing over the fact that they originate from humanity and that their kind is actually known on many worlds on the Imperium. And why suggesting that the Squats on Necromunda or other Imperial worlds are actually wandering Leaguers that one day will return to their own lands? Wouldn't it be more interesting that the Leagues are merely a certain faction among those abhumans, the descendants of those that were sent out to mine at the Galactic Core and developed in a different way in their isolation, while 'squats' are descended from those who labored in the other parts of the galaxy and mingled and integrated into the dominant baseline human societies?  

 

So, I hope that more writing on the Leagues will give them some depth.

Edited May 11, 2023 by Quantum

[Matcap86]

Thorpe's Space Marine books are not that great imho, but his xenos focussed stuff at least lets him stretch his creativity. Which I think is his strong suit. So I'm interested to see where this goes. 

[Tokugawa]

Don't let this man touch the writing of tabletop rules, then it's OK.

[Petitioner's City]

25 minutes ago, Tokugawa said:

Don't let this man touch the writing of tabletop rules, then it's OK.

 

Gav was a brilliant games designer (for fantasy too), from Digganob to Inquisitor to many editions of 40k to many other products. 

 

 

Honestly, people have short, poor memories sometimes - or don't do their research. 

Edited May 9, 2023 by Petitioner's City

[Casual Heresy]

I honestly enjoy a lot of Gav's writing ( and the constant negativity whenever his name is attached to a project is just exhausting and unconstructive), though can't deny that his space marine work can be very hit and miss. I'm looking forward to his take on Votaan, as I think there is plenty of space there for him to get creative and do some world building, which I think are his strengths.

 

Votaan are way overdue for something from Black Library. Don't think we've even had a short story yet? This is likely quite a while off though. If this is him writing now, I'd expect a summer release at the earliest, to coincide with the next Votaan codex. We know what codices are coming up to the end of spring so Summer is the earliest can see it happening. 

 

 

[Nagashsnee]

Say what you will, the man was instrumental in making BFG and that is the best game GW has ever made so he gets allot of leeway. 

[Tokugawa]

1 hour ago, Petitioner's City said:

 

Gav was a brilliant games designer (for fantasy too), from Digganob to Inquisitor to many editions of 40k to many other products. 

 

 

Honestly, people have short, poor memories sometimes - or don't do their research. 

These books you listed, were most 10+ or 15+ years ago, at that time 40k was not very care about competitive and balance. Even in low standard of these days, he was also criticized for the lack of options and poor internal balance in 4e CSM codex. The popular 3.5e CSM codex raised expectations of players high, his work couldn't match that.

 

His rules work during modern 40k time was disaster. He irresponsibly put mechanics which were not carefully tested(e.g. you can shoot and charge in your OPPONENT's turn) into Ynnari rules, regardless of different opinions from other designers. To no one's surprise, the Ynnari rules were very broken. Even 3 streak patches couldn't fix it. The Ynnari rules set was finally abandoned and re-written in late 8th.

 

I don't have any opinion against Gav's novel writing. When I am talking about Gav is a bad rules designer, I'm talking about he is a really bad rules designer. 

[Lord Marshal]

His Fantasy Dwarf books were actually pretty good, I thought. Might be why he ended up with the first Votann gig. 

[Petitioner's City]

16 minutes ago, Tokugawa said:

These books you listed, were most 10+ or 15+ years ago, at that time 40k was not very care about competitive and balance. Even in low standard of these days, he was also criticized for the lack of options and poor internal balance in 4e CSM codex. The popular 3.5e CSM codex raised expectations of players high, his work couldn't match that.

 

His rules work during modern 40k time was disaster. He irresponsibly put mechanics which were not carefully tested(e.g. you can shoot and charge in your OPPONENT's turn) into Ynnari rules, regardless of different opinions from other designers. To no one's surprise, the Ynnari rules were very broken. Even 3 streak patches couldn't fix it. The Ynnari rules set was finally abandoned and re-written in late 8th.

 

I don't have any opinion against Gav's novel writing. When I am talking about Gav is a bad rules designer, I'm talking about he is a really bad rules designer. 

 

I think youve been a bit misinformed, that's ok :)

 

(A) Gav hasn't contributed to GW rules since that much critiqued Codex Chaos Space Marines and last wfb books; he didn't do the ynnari rules, nor anything in a long time. Hence why I said Gav *was* a fantastic games designer for warhammer, but since 2008 his contributions have been licenced fiction. (He's also done freelance work for other publishers, including with Andy Chambers and others of their era)

 

(B) the 4th edition CSM book was part of a trend, it was the first of the stripped back books of 5th edition. Some people have claimed Alessio did the rules for the book, but it was their cowork, and even that stripped down approach to fifth itself feels like it followed on from Alessio's work in lotr. 

 

On a more personal note,

 

(C) competitiveness or balance are not synonyms of fantastic or good games design. 

 

Anyway, you might like to read his AMA he did a few years ago; it also does emphasise muchly his love for dwarfs and indeed even squats :)

[silverstu]

22 minutes ago, Lord Marshal said:

His Fantasy Dwarf books were actually pretty good, I thought. Might be why he ended up with the first Votann gig. 

This- he has been very good at writing dwarfs and I thought his world building in the Eldar Path series was very good, I just wasn't wild about the central characters.

I think this might be a short story as the image had Page 3-4 of 5 so doesn't seem long, unless it was a chapter.

Really enjoyed the lore/background in the Votann book, there just wasn't enough of it.Just 2 pages on a Hearthkyn unit in battle and two pages detailing a camp gain against Chaos. We need to more stories and a deeper sense of how the leagues interact with the rest of the galaxy. 

[Chaplain Lucifer]

Why do my favorite armies attract Gav Thorpe? :(

Hard pass on this one. Was excited for a Votann novel but these news pretty much kill it for me...

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Haranin]

Don't confuse enthusiasm and prolific with competence. Yes, he has produced quite a bit of material, but by and large every army he touches is awful, either stupid overpowered, or stupid underpowered. No in between. Dwarf players were sad at Bugmans when we found out he was writing the book.

 

Fiction wise, his dark angel books were ok, but his dwarf books awful.

 

I really hope he doesn't touch the Votann fluff. ABD or Guy Haley. That Brit scifi author T something really long did a great job on the ad mech/gene stealer novel. He would be great. I can dream of Dan Abnett...

[LemanPuss]

Gav Thorpe is a terrible writer, many of his characters are so shallow and wooden. I would have hoped they would opt for a stronger BL author to explore the Votann.

[01RTB01]

Terrible, sorry but I'm yet to read a decent Thorpe novel

 

[phandaal]

5 minutes ago, LemanPuss said:

Gav Thorpe is a terrible writer, many of his characters are so shallow and wooden. I would have hoped they would opt for a stronger BL author to explore the Votann.

 

I struggled to get through his Dark Angels books, only to be rewarded with maybe the worst story twist ever regarding the destruction of Caliban. Hard to move past something like that. Life is short and there are plenty of other things to do and books to read.

 

On 5/9/2023 at 8:38 AM, Haranin said:

That Brit scifi author T something really long did a great job on the ad mech/gene stealer novel. He would be great.

 

Adrian Tchaikovsky. He really did do a great job with Day of Ascension.

[Sea Creature]

Penal Legion is classic.

[Gederas]

There's only one book by Thorpe I've read that I'd say was good, being Luther: First of the Fallen. I don't have high hopes for this book.

 

I'm just wondering what specific part of LoV lore he'll latch onto and make all-consuming for the novel. Maybe their rampant capitalism, or some kind of SHOCKING TWIST for the Votann themselves?

[phandaal]

6 minutes ago, Gederas said:

or some kind of SHOCKING TWIST for the Votann themselves?

 

Oh no. The Votann are all going to be Chalupas aren't they?

[Scribe]

I enjoyed Luthor.

 

(Lets not discuss CSM 4th....) :D

Edited May 12, 2023 by Scribe