Rapier toughness VS shooting attacks?

[Cruor Vault]

I brought my rapiers for their first game of 2.0 last night and was surprised to discover that the T5 on the Rapier doesn’t come into play until the ratio of gunners/rapiers is equal as Bulky doesn’t impact the majority toughness math. 

 

I’d assumed the T5 on the rapiers was intended to make the unit a little tougher.   Am I missing a rule, or are Rapiers even worse than they look?

[Valkyrion]

I'm in no fit state to hammer of math it, but yes. Majority toughness is a thing, but only needing one crewman to operate something gives you, in effect, a T4 ablative wound and then the (single) artillery piece and remaining gunner would then be at T5. 

It's further complicated by having 3 artillery pieces in a battery (3 x 2 T4 crew and 3 x 1 T5 rapiers) but fundamentally I think you are better protected from <S8 attacks by having more crew than rapiers and better protected from S8 and S9 attacks by having equal or more rapiers to crew. 

 

I think.  The way I've explained it makes sense logically to me - a high strength blast that kills the crew renders the artillery useless, but one crewman hiding   tactically avoiding being hit behind an artillery shield is harder to kill. 

 

It would not at all surprise me to learn I am wrong though, so don't go into your next game saying 'Valkyrion says....'!

[SkimaskMohawk]

Rapiers are gutted defensively. You basically need to kill off a crew, pass the morale test, and then you can be T5 for the two wounds of the gun. It does get better in a bigger blob, when you can kill off three dudes first and then enjoy a bit more T5 playtime. Sadly, the rules for majority toughness specifically say bulky doesn't come into play, so you do have to do some wound juggling.

 

But even with that, rapiers are pretty good. They can move and shoot now, giving the shorter ranged guns more help. The incendiary rounds can hit a wide area, and with shred and twinlinked you're probably hitting and generating some wounds. Blah blah blah, night lords and pinning, but I really feel their absence when I try taking something else.

[Cruor Vault]

Hmmm…. I’d not really looked at what the quad launchers were bringing.  Being barrage they might actually survive a turn or two!

 

Where are they getting twin linked from?

[SkimaskMohawk]

4 hours ago, Cruor Vault said:

Hmmm…. I’d not really looked at what the quad launchers were bringing.  Being barrage they might actually survive a turn or two!

 

Where are they getting twin linked from?

 

From 1st ed apparently .

 

Well, if you take nuncios to help with night or deepstrike, they also re-add that part lol. 

 

[Xenith]

Yea, the T5 doesn't kick in until you've lost 3 crew, definitely something bulky should account for. After that, alternate between allocating wounds to rapier and crew to keep them alive, though generally any dedicated attempt to remove them will do so. 

[9x19 Parabellum]

Even if the infantry models were outside LOS of the attacking unit and thus couldn't be allocated as wounds/casualties, you'd still use their toughness?

 

This is why i like the heavy bolters.  Cheap, 48" range, and a bunch of twin linked shots. 

[dickyelsdon]

I dont think determination of 'majority toughness' cosiders LoS, however allocation does, so you couldnt apply wounds to crew if they were hidden.  So what you win in one hand youd lose from the other.

[SkimaskMohawk]

Los and even bulky have nothing to do with majority toughness. Just which toughness value is on the majority of models in the unit.

 

@dickyelsdon it's better not to hide the crew, as you basically get an ablative wound on the spare guy before the gun has to take any. 

[TheTrans]

If they just allowed the Bulky (X) to factor in artillery would work like it used to, which was fine. 

[SkimaskMohawk]

33 minutes ago, TheTrans said:

If they just allowed the Bulky (X) to factor in artillery would work like it used to, which was fine. 

 

The fact that there's such a dramatic shift in defensive capability means that someone didn't like how it used to work and deliberately changed it, like bikes. You pair that with reactions and you got a unit that can feel surprisingly vulnerable to shooting. 

[TheTrans]

1 hour ago, SkimaskMohawk said:

 

The fact that there's such a dramatic shift in defensive capability means that someone didn't like how it used to work and deliberately changed it, like bikes. You pair that with reactions and you got a unit that can feel surprisingly vulnerable to shooting. 

Again, I think the thing  I dislike most about this edition is how plainly and clearly it is to see what the lead writers liked using, and didn't like playing against others... 

[Xenith]

Agree, though rapiers got relentless didnt they? So a gain in mobility with a loss in toughness is maybe acceptable. I do think they are sliiighly to expensive though, especially the quad mortar where you have to stack shell costs. 

[Gorgoff]

3 hours ago, Xenith said:

Agree, though rapiers got relentless didnt they? So a gain in mobility with a loss in toughness is maybe acceptable. I do think they are sliiighly to expensive though, especially the quad mortar where you have to stack shell costs. 

Yes they have Relentless and can therefore move and shoot.