Siege of Cthonia thoughts

[SkimaskMohawk]

With the book being available in epub format, I'm going over the standard and universal game stuff for the first time. 

 

Core missions:

• Have alternating terrain placement 
• Have a roll off to declare reserves before standard deployment (loser has to say what they're putting in, winner second, then either player can put more stuff into normal reserves)
• There's kill points in the secondaries; you can get 4 VPs turn one if you one-shot an elite unit and two-shot a second one, rip msu elites. Last man standing can give 2 it you double your opponents remaining units. But warlord is still only worth 2 on the primarch; you only ever get 2 VPs for killing superheavies, regardless of how many you kill. So pure knight lists give up a lot fewer kill points compared to price of failure.
• Player who wins the roll off to choose sides, also goes first and decides night fight.
• Games last 4 turns.
• Progressive scoring at the end of every player turn; infiltrating units really really give the first player the advantage. For the most part.

1. 3 objectives in no man's land. 1vp per.
2. 1 objective in the center. 3 vp.
3. 6 objectives; escalating amount can be scored throughout the game. 0 on turn 1, 1 on turn 2, 2 on turn 3+. Chosen by the scoring player; objectives are discarded after being scored and can't be scored again.
4. 2 objectives, one per opponents deployment. 1vp/turn if you hold 1; 3vp per turn if you hold both.
5. 1 objective in the center, scattered d6+2. Is worth points equivalent to turn number; every time it's scored, it scatters d6+6 (hits can't be rerolled [but why not say use the arrow on the hit symbol?]).

Theres 5 core missions, so that's it. I think they're bad, since there's some real swingy luck leading to snowball wins (I won reserve roll, I won priority to decide night and take first). I'm sure people will like them though.

 

Decurions:

• Each is restricted to a list of vehicle mounts; surprise, they're all the same. Pred, sicaran (normal), sicaran (punisher), kratos.
• Defensor is 20 points, has the point defence Advanced reaction (non turret defensive weapons can shoot back, pintles make double shot, no out of los shots or barrage, templates make max wall of death). Must take a non-havoc pintle (why, the havoc is terrible, it doesn't need to be restricted more), so theres a bit of an inflated cost to this guy.
• Locus is 30 points and comes with nuncio vox, has the locus strike advanced reaction (can shoot with defensive and one battle weapon or single battle weapon at +1 to hit, template make wall of death but have an 8" range)

It's cool that you can upgrade an unlimited amount of vehicles, but it's very obvious which of the two decurions is better. It's also kinda sad that this was basically the squadron commander concept that got cut and made worse; I'm going to do the legion specific ones because it's so sparse with just the two.

• Lanius is 40 points, restricted SoH, one time buy, and can't have a pre-existing pintle. Gives a 12" LD 9 aoe for morale and pinning in the shooting phase, can inflict wounds on a unit that failed either test to make them auto-pass (needs los and 12"). Comes with a str 6, breaching 6 heavy bolter.
• Sagittarius is also 40 and mirrors the lanius' restrictions (but is fists), but also comes with an augury. Gets the precision shots 5+/skyfire on a defensive or pintle weapon. Comes with an illiastus assault cannon (so no multimelta sniping).

Similarly, there's a clear winner. The lanius helps your army in a big way, making them pseudo fearless against shooting.

 

Inductii have mostly been covered by reviews and leaks, I'll comment on interesting stuff I didn't see and the default restrictions :

• Can't have any models join them (so no apothecaries, no ICs to combo). Can't take artificer. Are support.
• White scars damage mitigation isn't a FNP, so you can take it against instant death stuff.
• Night Lords lose Heart. The challenge gang up allows to pick 2 models at Initiative step 10; 2+ per they attack the enemy, 1 they attack the seargent. Team kill doesn't count towards combat results, I10 gang up kill can free the challengers to attack/be attacked as if there wasn't a challenge.
• Death guard damage mitigation also isn't a FNP or shroud, so the instant death and ignores cover/night vision can't ignore it.
• The raven guard "fall back" instead of being pinned isnt a fall back; you just move. You still score and can still move and shoot as normal. If you're pinned while charging, the charge fails and you go backwards instead of shuffling half speed forwards. It's actually really good imo, and lets you dodge the dreaded two turn pin from the reaction.

 

 

 

 

[Bung]

The Sagittarius doesnt seem that bad, depending on the Tank.

Put him on a Sicaran Punisher and the turret gun gets Precision Shots.

Thats 18 S6 Shots with +1 BS ans precision Shots 5+.

[Astartes Consul]

Waiting for my copy to arrive in the post (hopefully today). Guessing Inductii still have Line, even though they’re Support? 

[lokkorex]

No characters being able to join Inductii makes them an even harder sell for me as an IW player, the ignore pinning seemed fluffy at least, but this makes it even more difficult to justify getting them over normal tacticals.

 

The decurion upgrade might be cool with a crapload of shrapnel cannons on a tank...

[The Scorpion]

On 5/27/2023 at 10:37 AM, lokkorex said:

No characters being able to join Inductii makes them an even harder sell for me as an IW player, the ignore pinning seemed fluffy at least, but this makes it even more difficult to justify getting them over normal tacticals.

 

Smh. In hindsight, they should've given special rules to veterans and rebranded the tactical/assault/breacher lore to say that by the time of the mid-heresy, many positions in the Line units were being inreasingly filled by inductii, Space Marines forged after the start of the civil war with the purpose of bolstering legion numbers.

 

The allies chart should be changed as well. The one from 1.0 represented the old ties forged in the Great Crusade to which legions fell back on during the fog of war of the early heresy. But there is no way that legions like the Iron Hands and Emperor's Children would still be Sworn Brothers after Istvaan V.

[SkimaskMohawk]

6 hours ago, Bung said:

The Sagittarius doesnt seem that bad, depending on the Tank.

Put him on a Sicaran Punisher and the turret gun gets Precision Shots.

Thats 18 S6 Shots with +1 BS ans precision Shots 5+.

 

You're right that he's not bad, and that you can get a surprise precision shot volley off (at a different target to the rest of the shooting), or skyfire if there's flyers about. 

 

But compared to the banner guy, you get far less. A 12" aoe LD 9 and insurance vs. split fire and 0.8 failed saves on a marine character.

 

@Astartes Consul they still have line, so depending on the legion, you can fit them into those rites that swap elite units into compulsory troops but fail to give them line.

Edited May 27, 2023 by SkimaskMohawk

[Bung]

3 hours ago, lokkorex said:

No characters being able to join Inductii makes them an even harder sell for me as an IW player, the ignore pinning seemed fluffy at least, but this makes it even more difficult to justify getting them over normal tacticals.

 

The decurion upgrade might be cool with a crapload of shrapnel cannons on a tank...

 

I think they may work pretty well with shrapnell Bolters and the short range.

 

@SkimaskMohawk

Sure, the SoH ones gives a more usefull boost but as is the IF one fits the army idea of the Fists.

You pour out a lot of fire, but there is nothing in the rules to improve moral.

Its one of the things Fists lack or people would be more salty.

 

Edited May 27, 2023 by Bung

[bushman101]

Any noticeable changes to ZM? My book is in the mail

[SkimaskMohawk]

Okay, traitor assassin time.

 

Is part of the "cults abominato army list". You're allowed to just take them as part of any Primary, ignoring the usually rules for allies, but still taking up an FoC slot (and always counting as distrusted). This army list isn't necessarily locked to traitors, though the infernus abomination is.

 

Their special reaction is bit complicated. It can trigger if an enemy unit moves within 12" in the movement phase, targets them in the shooting phase, or declares a charge in the assault phase (the unit has to entirely have the new abomination subtype, just in case you got around the distrusted allies bit). You take a LD test; if passed you can move 12" with no limits, except for ending outside 1" of enemy models and not being in impassable. If you end out of los/range of shooting attacks/charges, they immediately fail without triggering one use/gets hot, and cannot retarget anything instead. If the LD test is failed, both the abomination and the triggering unit take d6 wounds with no saves at all. 

 

The unit type gives:

• Never slowed in it's movement or charge through terrain.
• Auto pass dangerous terrain
• Can never be joined by any models
• Cant go into transports
• Can't be warlord

Why do they have a restriction on being entirely abomination in the reaction, while also having restrictions other places? Idk. Same with the transport thing and counting as distrusted allies.

 

Stats wise it's a WS 5/bs 4 Praetor with a 4+/4++save. It's got infiltrate, scout, fear 2, adamantium will 3+, and a better version of iwnd (you roll per missing wound and can regen all the lost wounds at once).

 

It's got a 6" assault 2d6 fleshbane gun. Aka reaction fodder against marines.

 

In melee you've got an initiative order thunder hammer with murderous strike, and some other options for like solar aux and daemons.

 

Pretty good for 130.

 

[MichaelCarmine]

Death Guard "Barbaran Resilience" roll can't be taken against instant death, it's mentioned in the first paragraph.

 

Other than that, i really like the Inductii rules, i will definately test one with my Iron Warriors and Raven Guard!

Not so sure about my Wolves - the option for chainaxes is super cool, but i'm not sold on their Leadership 7...

[SkimaskMohawk]

5 minutes ago, MichaelCarmine said:

Death Guard "Barbaran Resilience" roll can't be taken against instant death, it's mentioned in the first paragraph.

 

Other than that, i really like the Inductii rules, i will definately test one with my Iron Warriors and Raven Guard!

Not so sure about my Wolves - the option for chainaxes is super cool, but i'm not sold on their Leadership 7...

 

Woops, you're totally right. Kinda lessens the value a bit for them, as stubborn and straight 5+ FNP when you're want to be is a lot better than flex alchem and 5+ at 5 guys 

[MichaelCarmine]

Also, i may have missed it, but regarding Inductii - The Inductii "Template" is chosen for the specific Unit, before any other options are taken during army creation.

Is the upgraded unit still a Tactical Squad/Despoiler Squad, just with the Inductii Subtype, or is it now an Inductii Squad with the Inductii Subtype?

 

So would the Unit still be considered a Tactical Squad, for (as an example) the IW Hammer of Olympia RoW, where all Tactical Squads must exchange their FotL with Fury of Olympia? Or does it Keep its FotL, because it doesn't count as a Tactical Squad anymore?

[SkimaskMohawk]

17 minutes ago, MichaelCarmine said:

Also, i may have missed it, but regarding Inductii - The Inductii "Template" is chosen for the specific Unit, before any other options are taken during army creation.

Is the upgraded unit still a Tactical Squad/Despoiler Squad, just with the Inductii Subtype, or is it now an Inductii Squad with the Inductii Subtype?

 

So would the Unit still be considered a Tactical Squad, for (as an example) the IW Hammer of Olympia RoW, where all Tactical Squads must exchange their FotL with Fury of Olympia? Or does it Keep its FotL, because it doesn't count as a Tactical Squad anymore?

 

I pretty sure you stay as tacs/despoilers.

 

Theres a ton of references to the individual guys composing the units, and that the unit has been "modified" by the template instead of say a new unit. There's also no...real name to replace Legion Tactical/Despoiler Squad in the rules. Would an iron warriors one be called an Iron Warriors Legion Inductii Template unit? 

[Agramar_The_Luna_Wolf]

Have you seen the new Thousand Sons praetor in articicer Armor? Pretty nice miniature.

Edited May 27, 2023 by AGRAMAR

[MichaelCarmine]

8 minutes ago, AGRAMAR said:

Have you seen the new Thousand Sons praetor in articicer Armor? Pretty nice miniature.

Not new, just a really neat Kitbash

[Agramar_The_Luna_Wolf]

9 minutes ago, MichaelCarmine said:

Not new, just a really neat Kitbash

Umpf...

It's the first time in this edition they put conversions in the color plates.

[The4thHorseman]

30 minutes ago, AGRAMAR said:

Umpf...

It's the first time in this edition they put conversions in the color plates.

 

Speaking of Color Plates, there's only 13 and they don't even cover all the Legions, which the promo pic of helmets implied.

So thats a big let down if you are not IF, SoH, WB, TS, AL, BA, UM, DG and EC.

[SkimaskMohawk]

33 minutes ago, The4thHorseman said:

 

Speaking of Color Plates, there's only 13 and they don't even cover all the Legions, which the promo pic of helmets implied.

So thats a big let down if you are not IF, SoH, WB, TS, AL, BA, UM, DG and EC.

 

Yea I looked through that trying to find the plates for my night lords and was disappointed. There's some really cool battle damaged ones, and interesting alt schemes, but there's also a load of plain mk6...

[WrathOfTheLion]

2 hours ago, SkimaskMohawk said:

 

Yea I looked through that trying to find the plates for my night lords and was disappointed. There's some really cool battle damaged ones, and interesting alt schemes, but there's also a load of plain mk6...

The most interesting one casually watching a friend go through the book was the Loyalist Thousand Sons one. If you decide to go that route, it's a pretty nice reference to make them distinctive.
 

I may have missed some other ones, but that one stood out to me. I'll be able to go through in more depth when mine arrives.

[SkimaskMohawk]

43 minutes ago, WrathOfTheLion said:

The most interesting one casually watching a friend go through the book was the Loyalist Thousand Sons one. If you decide to go that route, it's a pretty nice reference to make them distinctive.
 

I may have missed some other ones, but that one stood out to me. I'll be able to go through in more depth when mine arrives.

 

That one was really cool, though Im also partial to the fist with white helmet, soh with grey, ultra with green stripe, and EC with black arms and stripe. I think I'll steal the last one for my night lords actually.

[Bung]

8 hours ago, The4thHorseman said:

 

Speaking of Color Plates, there's only 13 and they don't even cover all the Legions, which the promo pic of helmets implied.

So thats a big let down if you are not IF, SoH, WB, TS, AL, BA, UM, DG and EC.

 

Thats no difference to the FW Black Books from Last Edition.

 

[Matcap86]

Well damn, those thousand sons loyalists fit exactly into an idea I had earlier to make a pre-magnus thousand sons force... But I refrained because they didn't really fit chronologically... Welp on the projects pile it goes. 

[WrathOfTheLion]

8 hours ago, SkimaskMohawk said:

 

That one was really cool, though Im also partial to the fist with white helmet, soh with grey, ultra with green stripe, and EC with black arms and stripe. I think I'll steal the last one for my night lords actually.

I'll check those out when my copy comes in, they sound pretty cool as well.

[No Foes Remain]

Odered mine from Darksphere today, willing to wait a little bit longer to get a few quid off. So far liking what has been reported, the Inductii seem quite fun and thematic though some legions require more 'tactics' with the unit than others who just have a basic upgrade.

[Ubiquitous1984]

Does anyone know if there are any lore summaries from this new book?  I don’t play the game but I’m a BL consumer, so any new HH lore is cat nip for me.