Siege of Cthonia thoughts

[Mandragola]

My take on Cthonia is that the rules in it are (perhaps surprisingly) good. 

 

Decurions improve vehicles somewhat, which they needed. There are more reasons to bring squadrons now, for example. It's a shame there are only two legion-specific ones but it's ok. I kind of want a Sicaran Punisher with a Sagittar in for my Fists, to shoot down planes with dakka.

 

Inductii are done pretty well I think and the abomination is much more successful than the Imperial versions, thanks to actually bringing scary weapons.

 

If they carry on bringing out campaign books of this quality, I'll be happy.

[SkimaskMohawk]

2 hours ago, Mandragola said:

My take on Cthonia is that the rules in it are (perhaps surprisingly) good. 

 

Decurions improve vehicles somewhat, which they needed. There are more reasons to bring squadrons now, for example. It's a shame there are only two legion-specific ones but it's ok. I kind of want a Sicaran Punisher with a Sagittar in for my Fists, to shoot down planes with dakka.

 

Inductii are done pretty well I think and the abomination is much more successful than the Imperial versions, thanks to actually bringing scary weapons.

 

If they carry on bringing out campaign books of this quality, I'll be happy.

 

Id call it a B- all things considered.

 

The decurions add a bit to a few tanks, but until the durability issues are fixed, vehicles are in a tough spot regardless. At least the locus makes the kratos be a bit of a okay trading platform, similar to dreads. Unfortunately the defensor sucks, so we're left with only one real generic decurion. And we lost potms and squadron commanders for this new take on buffing vehicles.

 

The legion specific ones are solid.

 

The legion specific rules and stuff is solid with the exception of the warlord trait built for progressive scoring. 

 

The Inductii are solid on the whole, though BA truly have a rough time of things.

 

The assassin has very good output, bit dies very easily to reactions, and simply weight of attacks. And is ultimately just a beatstick in the HQ slot, running up against vigilators, tely librarians, delegates, most, and heralds. It's rules aren't bad, but the nature of the game makes it worse than you'd think.

 

The missions suck though. I played one today, and the player going first ha such a huge advantage. Decide deployment zones, decide night fight, have the momentum to get on the objectives first and  have the momentum for the two destroy an enemy unit on turn 1 secondaries. You need a lot of awareness in the terrain placement stage (and good terrain), as well as very mission focussed lists to not make it a snowball land...and thats the experience I like to leave in 40k, personally. 

[Cadmus Tyro]

I’m not so sure the defensor “sucks”, at least by my reading. The reaction applies to the unit (not just the model with the defensor upgrade) and also takes place when the attacking player declares a shooting attack, so you’re doing damage to the unit that targets you before they roll any dice, potentially reducing their output.

 

In a squadron of preds with volkite sponsons and pintle HBs, that’s a lot of shots. IF with heavy bolters are going to have a field day….

 

I agree, it’s a little niche, but at least there is some application. 
 

Cadmus

 

 

[SkimaskMohawk]

5 hours ago, Cadmus Tyro said:

I’m not so sure the defensor “sucks”, at least by my reading. The reaction applies to the unit (not just the model with the defensor upgrade) and also takes place when the attacking player declares a shooting attack, so you’re doing damage to the unit that targets you before they roll any dice, potentially reducing their output.

 

In a squadron of preds with volkite sponsons and pintle HBs, that’s a lot of shots. IF with heavy bolters are going to have a field day….

 

I agree, it’s a little niche, but at least there is some application. 
 

Cadmus

 

 

 

That's a good point with kicking in before the incoming attacks, but I'd still ask how effective squadron return fire was when it worked similarly. 

 

With a certain critical mass of guns, the defensor can definitely deter shooting due to reactions, but only against infantry, and there's still the very big issue of their reacting to your shooting and trading out hulls.

 

Edit: out of curiosity I did the math on some of the weapons:

 

• Four preds with volkite sponsons average 9 unsaved wounds after deflagrate on 3+ armour.
• The punisher averages about 5 unsaved wounds, some of which trigger pinning with shell shock 
• Combi grenades need to hit 9 models across both blasts to average a failed save for pinning. Maybe not the worst pintle weapon as it's only 5 points more than the base combi you're forced to take regardless.
• Iron warriors with shrapnel can comfortably force pinning tests just through base heavy bolters.
• An Imperial fists triple assault cannon pred averages 2 unsaved wounds, with 1.7 rends.

 

So the 500 point volkite pred squadron can definitely see off a chunk of HSS depending on 2+ armour save tanking, and the punisher can also really...punish...infantry shooting at it. But it kinda comes with the caveat that if you take a top gun like melta or las on the preds, that you only have it as a battle weapon for your first weapon destroyed. Again, the punisher kinda flies under the radar with it's full array of weapons being defensive.

 

Definitely better than I first thought, and I'm glad to be wrong since imo the punisher looks awesome and I always wanted an excuse to take one.

Edited May 29, 2023 by SkimaskMohawk

[Arkangilos]

14 hours ago, SkimaskMohawk said:

 

The Inductii are solid on the whole, though BA truly have a rough time of things.

Not having it myself, what makes you say this?

[Squark]

1 hour ago, Arkangilos said:

Not having it myself, what makes you say this?

You trade spite of the legion for the possibility to gain fear if you win combat, at the cost of being unable to sweep. That's a lot of iffs for a somewhat marginal benefit.

[Petitioner's City]

22 minutes ago, Squark said:

You trade spite of the legion for the possibility to gain fear if you win combat, at the cost of being unable to sweep. That's a lot of iffs for a somewhat marginal benefit.

 

But it is thematic as hell, and really fun to model :)

 

After having read the book, which I really bought for the lore, campaign and ZM, I love this book. It's just like being back with a friend whose company I utterly enjoy, who surprises me with their stories and takes me down new paths. The campaign is exciting, and ZM as exciting as ever. Very very happy with my purchase.

[Doghouse]

I came across this for anyone hunting around for book reviews like myself.

 

 

My copy should be arriving later this week I hope.

 

[Cadmus Tyro]

7 hours ago, SkimaskMohawk said:

 

That's a good point with kicking in before the incoming attacks, but I'd still ask how effective squadron return fire was when it worked similarly. 

 

With a certain critical mass of guns, the defensor can definitely deter shooting due to reactions, but only against infantry, and there's still the very big issue of their reacting to your shooting and trading out hulls.

 

Edit: out of curiosity I did the math on some of the weapons:

 

• Four preds with volkite sponsons average 9 unsaved wounds after deflagrate on 3+ armour.
• The punisher averages about 5 unsaved wounds, some of which trigger pinning with shell shock 
• Combi grenades need to hit 9 models across both blasts to average a failed save for pinning. Maybe not the worst pintle weapon as it's only 5 points more than the base combi you're forced to take regardless.
• Iron warriors with shrapnel can comfortably force pinning tests just through base heavy bolters.
• An Imperial fists triple assault cannon pred averages 2 unsaved wounds, with 1.7 rends.

 

So the 500 point volkite pred squadron can definitely see off a chunk of HSS depending on 2+ armour save tanking, and the punisher can also really...punish...infantry shooting at it. But it kinda comes with the caveat that if you take a top gun like melta or las on the preds, that you only have it as a battle weapon for your first weapon destroyed. Again, the punisher kinda flies under the radar with it's full array of weapons being defensive.

 

Definitely better than I first thought, and I'm glad to be wrong since imo the punisher looks awesome and I always wanted an excuse to take one.

Unfortunately, it specifically does not allow turret weapons to be used in the reaction, which is really irritating….

 

Cadmus 

[Ripper.McGuirl]

I will say I really really like the Zone Mortalis rules. Changing around the secondaries is a fun tweak, stating flat out only one dread of any type per 1000 pts, interesting reinforcement mechanics, very simple chart for linking games, and plenty of opportunity for adding rules for events. I would have liked the stratagems and random event charts from last edition to be included, but they actually mostly work just porting them straight over anyway.

Over all very very cool.

[SkimaskMohawk]

2 hours ago, Petitioner's City said:

 

But it is thematic as hell, and really fun to model :)

 

 

Theme should never be a byword for "worse" when talking about the rules, and it should never be used to excuse terrible rules. Many other legions got Inductii that were both thematic, and weren't worse than the originating unit.

 

Like the revenants were known for their cockroach like survival, their viciousness, their win at all costs mentality, and, yes, their bloody eating habits. They had many thematic levers to pull instead of landing on "compulsive corpse eaters" (which they weren't, it was a tactical choice to eat people middle of combat to create fear).

 

@Cadmus Tyro fml I really can't read the defensors rules, can I lol. NVM, the defensor is back to being bad in my books; 500 points for those volkite preds to kill 9 power armour guys is very niche. And worse than power of the machine spirit or old squadron commander.

Edited May 29, 2023 by SkimaskMohawk

[Arkangilos]

3 minutes ago, SkimaskMohawk said:

which they weren't, it was a tactical choice to eat people middle of combat to create fear

To be fair, they did still suffer from the thirst as a legion, so I can see a few of the thrust into combat new guys doing that. Other than that I agree with what you say.

Edited May 29, 2023 by Arkangilos

[Mandragola]

7 hours ago, SkimaskMohawk said:

 

That's a good point with kicking in before the incoming attacks, but I'd still ask how effective squadron return fire was when it worked similarly. 

 

With a certain critical mass of guns, the defensor can definitely deter shooting due to reactions, but only against infantry, and there's still the very big issue of their reacting to your shooting and trading out hulls.

 

Edit: out of curiosity I did the math on some of the weapons:

 

• Four preds with volkite sponsons average 9 unsaved wounds after deflagrate on 3+ armour.
• The punisher averages about 5 unsaved wounds, some of which trigger pinning with shell shock 
• Combi grenades need to hit 9 models across both blasts to average a failed save for pinning. Maybe not the worst pintle weapon as it's only 5 points more than the base combi you're forced to take regardless.
• Iron warriors with shrapnel can comfortably force pinning tests just through base heavy bolters.
• An Imperial fists triple assault cannon pred averages 2 unsaved wounds, with 1.7 rends.

 

So the 500 point volkite pred squadron can definitely see off a chunk of HSS depending on 2+ armour save tanking, and the punisher can also really...punish...infantry shooting at it. But it kinda comes with the caveat that if you take a top gun like melta or las on the preds, that you only have it as a battle weapon for your first weapon destroyed. Again, the punisher kinda flies under the radar with it's full array of weapons being defensive.

 

Definitely better than I first thought, and I'm glad to be wrong since imo the punisher looks awesome and I always wanted an excuse to take one.

The Defensor firing before the active unit does is immense. You could have a predator squadron that fires 8 multimeltas at you if you charge it, or 32 heavy bolter shots - just from the pintle weapons.

 

Do bear in mind though that reaction fire *never* causes pinning or morale tests. You can't pin the guys who were about to shoot you. You can kill a bunch of them though.

 

Looking at the Locus, I'm now pretty convinced that all the models in a squadron get to fire their battle weapons. Units do reactions, not models. The Decurion lets the unit make the reaction, which reads as follows: "The Reactive player may make a Shooting Attack, targeting the unit that triggered this Reaction and following all the usual rules for Shooting Attacks. A model with the Vehicle Unit Type attacking as part of this Reaction may attack with all of its Defensive weapons and up to one Battle weapon.

 

Overall my analysis is that you could run a unit of predators with some sort of nasty main gun (melta is my favourite), pintle weapons on everything and perhaps one of each Decurion.

 

I also like the idea of plasma predators with a Locus, since he comes with a nuncio vox to reroll scatter. 

[SkimaskMohawk]

22 hours ago, Mandragola said:

Do bear in mind though that reaction fire *never* causes pinning. 

 

Ugh, no, that's not the case at all. Shooting reactions cannot cause LD tests due to casualties; this blocks morale, but doesn't block pinning because that one is based on unsaved wounds. There's even a caveat to what happens to a charging unit if it gets pinned (and how would that happen, if not via overwatch).

 

22 hours ago, Mandragola said:

You can't pin the guys who were about to shoot you.

 

This is partially right at least.

 

The current sequencing on return fire makes it take place after all the enemy shooting has happened and saves have been made for your units; you can't pin the guys who were about to shoot you because they've already shot you. But that's just because of the sequencing; back when return fire was done before the hit roll, you could pre-pin, and it was the cherry on top of killing models before they could fire (if they weren't in the weapon pool about to be rolled).

 

The sequencing for Point Defence is different though. It happens when you're simply declared a target, which means any kills prevent the model from shooting, and any unsaved wounds will cause an immediate pinning test at the end of the reacting units shooting.

 

Also, Locus strike has the original unfaqd sequence of shooting phase reactions (allowing you to see just how dead you are before committing the reaction).

 

22 hours ago, Mandragola said:

Looking at the Locus, I'm now pretty convinced that all the models in a squadron get to fire their battle weapons. Units do reactions, not models. The Decurion lets the unit make the reaction, which reads as follows: "The Reactive player may make a Shooting Attack, targeting the unit that triggered this Reaction and following all the usual rules for Shooting Attacks. A model with the Vehicle Unit Type attacking as part of this Reaction may attack with all of its Defensive weapons and up to one Battle weapon

 

Yea it totally affects the entire unit, so squadrons can get some big benefit. Or even just the kratos, as it's tough enough in the front to see off a few rounds of lascannons. 

 

22 hours ago, Mandragola said:

The Defensor firing before the active unit does is immense. You could have a predator squadron that fires 8 multimeltas at you if you charge it, or 32 heavy bolter shots - just from the pintle weapons.

22 hours ago, Mandragola said:

Overall my analysis is that you could run a unit of predators with some sort of nasty main gun (melta is my favourite), pintle weapons on everything and perhaps one of each Decurion.

 

The output is definitely good in these configurations and should be respected if you come up against it. But you're racking up the points; you're a death star by any other name and should expect to perform like one at that point.

 

4 preds with pintle heavy bolter and a defensor is 495. 4 with pintle multimelta and defensor is 535. 4 with the magna melta and double decurion is 575. 4 with full melta is 655. These ain't small numbers.

 

But, you know, having typed that out, 10 tyrants are 575. 10 fulmentarus are 565. 10 melta scimitars are 465. And they don't get to pre-kill as a defense mechanism; even the undercosted as sin las HSS can't claim something like that (though do remember it's only 275 compared to all these other numbers I'm throwing around). So yea, I'll change my opinion again, again; the defensor is a very good pick for a vehicle deathstar (though still kinda whatever when you don't get to force multiply). The locus is solid as a utility pick and can go on the kratos as a single-model investment. 

Edited May 30, 2023 by SkimaskMohawk

[Cadmus Tyro]

I think the challenge for using the defensor effectively is going to be positioning. Getting all those sponsons within LoS of the expected incoming fire, given the foot print of a predator, is going to be a right pain. 
 

But it synergises with the turret and sponson mechanics, especially if the predator is equipped with a AT turret weapon. Essentially face predators towards the target most likely to shoot the preds that is also vulnerable to anti infantry fire (Las HSS). Position turrets to shoot primary AV target. Bonus points for using sponson weapons to target a tertiary infantry target (preferably one that will have no effective return fire). Sponsons return fire against incoming AT fire from the HSS.

 

Cadmus 

 

Edited May 30, 2023 by Cadmus Tyro

[Mandragola]

Looks like I had it wrong on pinning from reactions then. That's interesting, and very powerful. 

 

It's fair to characterise a squadron of four predators as a death star. They're a pretty scary one, I think. I'm not sure I'd go for four predators because you do start to get diminishing returns, due to stuff already being dead at that point. 500 points exactly buys you 3 melta/volkite predators with pintle heavy bolters, a Locus and Defensor. 

 

There isn't very much that will want to fire at that. It's not foolproof though - super-heavies like the Falchion and Warhound might be able to out-range you. There's been a bit of interest near me in conversion beamer predators, which seem like a particularly tough model to have to deal with. I've been finding that a lot of the deployment maps allow for very long ranges, due to either end to end or corner to corner set ups, so these could work well.

 

 

[Petitioner's City]

9 hours ago, SkimaskMohawk said:

 

Theme should never be a byword for "worse" when talking about the rules, and it should never be used to excuse terrible rules. Many other legions got Inductii that were both thematic, and weren't worse than the originating unit.

 

Like the revenants were known for their cockroach like survival, their viciousness, their win at all costs mentality, and, yes, their bloody eating habits. They had many thematic levers to pull instead of landing on "compulsive corpse eaters" (which they weren't, it was a tactical choice to eat people middle of combat to create fear).

 

Skimask, I just think you like to argue  - perhaps a bit too much - and definitely a tendency for hyperbole. It's ok for others to like a thing you don't, to value something you don't, to play and believe in the game and the rules for reasons other than the reasons you do, and to think something isn't "terrible". I know you love arguing and being right, here, on Facebook, on goonhammer, etc - but sometimes it's ok to just not try to argue, to be the most right person in the room telling others they are wrong on very subjective things :) 

 

Like I love the book for different reasons, I have my criticisms of it, but i think it's better to enjoy the forest than get annoyed by a few trees. No need to tell me I'm wrong for enjoying something you don't - it's ok you don't, it's ok I do :) 

Edited May 30, 2023 by Petitioner's City

[Xenith]

The book seems decent from what I've gathered. A few things seems like misses, like the defensor at first glance. I'm OK with the inductii rules, though there are some clear winners there, but they all offer something new, and the new missions and ZM rules are great. 

[sarabando]

very heavy push on despoilers which are prohibitably expensive due to exorbitant FW upgrades, decurions are insanely expensive for half a mini, and the book is direct order only. 

 

Not much they could do to balance this out in my eyes. im glad the rules seem solid for people but its still not a strong release imo. 

[Gorgoff]

10 minutes ago, sarabando said:

very heavy push on despoilers which are prohibitably expensive due to exorbitant FW upgrades, decurions are insanely expensive for half a mini,

That's why no sane person orders directly at FW.

There are so many companies or, if you prefer to stay on brand, way cheaper GW kits with chainswords in it that there is no need to buy these ridiculously priced bitz.

[Mandragola]

1 hour ago, Xenith said:

The book seems decent from what I've gathered. A few things seems like misses, like the defensor at first glance. I'm OK with the inductii rules, though there are some clear winners there, but they all offer something new, and the new missions and ZM rules are great. 

The Defensor is great, thanks to the ability to "return" fire before the enemy unit shoots. That's a major deterrent to infantry.

34 minutes ago, Gorgoff said:

That's why no sane person orders directly at FW.

There are so many companies or, if you prefer to stay on brand, way cheaper GW kits with chainswords in it that there is no need to buy these ridiculously priced bitz.

I'd been thinking about making a 15 man despoiler squad before I saw the price, which is far too high. I don't even like how the FW set is all left-handed. If I ever do make a squad they'll be made using old MK7 bits. I've got enough of those to work with. Eventually it'll be cheaper to buy the plastic assault marines and throw the bodies away rather than make despoilers. If I made a traitor force I'd use the CSM melee arms, or just the new berzerkers for WE.

[Petitioner's City]

Yeah it's very easy to make CCW marines using 40k kits (assault squad, assault intercessors, space wolves and blood angels lots), necromunda bits, third party alternatives, or 3d printed bits, etc.

 

The required boltpistols I find more annoying, as there are less on the market in more visibly heresy patterns - but again third party, or especially 3d printing, helps a lot there too. 

 

But it's still an extra, annoying, cost if you don't have bits to hand. But of course FW can just say that yes you can make despoiler or assault marines via the various resin kits that do exist, and of course they are right - just maybe can they hurry up on those pretty, hopefully cheaper, plastic kits? :(

Edited May 30, 2023 by Petitioner's City

[Xenith]

50 minutes ago, Mandragola said:

The Defensor is great, thanks to the ability to "return" fire before the enemy unit shoots. That's a major deterrent to infantry.

 

Ah, didn't see the distinction in the wording between the two. Useful in a mostly anti-infantry armed squadron, so maxed HB's punisher squadron, or pred squadron?

 

So shoot with all defensive weapons at infantry before they get shot, or 1 battle + all defensive weapons after they get shot?

 

As there's enough anti infantry out there, I'm not really taking tanks to deal with infantry, so they'll be rocking anti tank guns like the melta cannon. I do like the idea that it promotes taking defensive weapons, however I don't think I'll take all-defensive loadouts on the off-chance I'm shot by infantry. It might be useful if you have a lot of infiltrating melta-seekers in your meta?

[SkimaskMohawk]

3 hours ago, Petitioner's City said:

 

Skimask, I just think you like to argue  - perhaps a bit too much - and definitely a tendency for hyperbole. It's ok for others to like a thing you don't, to value something you don't, to play and believe in the game and the rules for reasons other than the reasons you do, and to think something isn't "terrible". I know you love arguing and being right, here, on Facebook, on goonhammer, etc - but sometimes it's ok to just not try to argue, to be the most right person in the room telling others they are wrong on very subjective things :) 

 

Like I love the book for different reasons, I have my criticisms of it, but i think it's better to enjoy the forest than get annoyed by a few trees. No need to tell me I'm wrong for enjoying something you don't - it's ok you don't, it's ok I do :) 

 

Yea, I only quoted the part where you answered a concern of the blood angels rules with "but it's thematic" and you didn't exactly qualify that with what it means to you or your enjoyment of the book. And my post is addressing that there doesn't need to be a "but" between rules that are actually compelling to all audiences and theme; there can be an "and". 

 

You're totally allowed to enjoy things on your own terms and not be debated for "correctness". You notice how I didn't quote the rest of your post which was about why you bought the book and how much you enjoyed it?

[Brofist]

The latest ZM rules invalidated my latest scars army. So I'm now 0 for 3 armies that I could play in ZM in 1.0 edition and can't in 2.0. I haven't been burned this bad since the 4th edition chaos codex. I'm close to calling it quits on the gaming part of the hobby tbh

 

There's some upsets in the ZM rule, generally speaking, from a balance perspective... but to me that's kinda secondary to having an army I can use.

Edited May 30, 2023 by Brofist