Siege of Cthonia thoughts

[Gorgoff]

16 minutes ago, Brofist said:

The latest ZM rules invalidated my latest scars army.

What? Why? 

[Xenith]

:( Always sad when that happens - I haven't seen the new rules yet - what rules invalidated what parts of your ZM force?

[lansalt]

I think bikes were allowed in HH1 ZM, but not anymore in HH2 (no Cavalry unit type), so being WS I guess that's the reason.

[Xenith]

Didn't know bikes were allowed in ZM1! Sad if the case, but in this instance I understand why they did it. Don't see many biker gangs getting into a boarding torpedo  Bit of a double punch with the (what seems like a) nerf to bikes in 2.0. 

[Mandragola]

1 hour ago, Xenith said:

 

Ah, didn't see the distinction in the wording between the two. Useful in a mostly anti-infantry armed squadron, so maxed HB's punisher squadron, or pred squadron?

 

So shoot with all defensive weapons at infantry before they get shot, or 1 battle + all defensive weapons after they get shot?

 

As there's enough anti infantry out there, I'm not really taking tanks to deal with infantry, so they'll be rocking anti tank guns like the melta cannon. I do like the idea that it promotes taking defensive weapons, however I don't think I'll take all-defensive loadouts on the off-chance I'm shot by infantry. It might be useful if you have a lot of infiltrating melta-seekers in your meta?

Yeah the advanced reaction happens when the enemy unit declares that it's targeting you, not simultaneously with their other shooting like the usual return fire or the Locus' advanced reaction. This is great against shooting but arguably a disadvantage if someone charges you, as you can't see what they've rolled (as you can with overwatch) before declaring the reaction.

 

In terms of load-outs, I think volkite sponsons and pintle meltas are probably the way to go. Nothing will enjoy taking 8 multimelta shots if it charges a squadron of 4 predators. Volkite sponsons will prevent you from being out-ranged by lascannon squads and the like. You're well into death star points territory of course, but it could be fun to try.

[Noserenda]

Arent Volkite sponsons the same cost as lascannons though? Which would answer the range problem and be more broadly useful? 

[Marshal Rohr]

I’m head over heels in love with this book. I think it injected some life into a setting which has felt pretty stale since Retribution. Inferno, Malevolence, and Crusade weren’t bad but getting something ostensibly about the Imperial Fists Vs Sons of Horus that is jam packed with awesome stuff for other legions really made me feel like the Heresy setting is going to keep getting high quality expansions. The Inductii rules don’t scream must use to me, but I will definitely be building some because I love the idea rounding the square of some older lore an out the second founding and the proto Flesh Tearer scheme for BA is cool. 

[Ripper.McGuirl]

10 minutes ago, Marshal Rohr said:

I’m head over heels in love with this book. I think it injected some life into a setting which has felt pretty stale since Retribution. Inferno, Malevolence, and Crusade weren’t bad but getting something ostensibly about the Imperial Fists Vs Sons of Horus that is jam packed with awesome stuff for other legions really made me feel like the Heresy setting is going to keep getting high quality expansions. The Inductii rules don’t scream must use to me, but I will definitely be building some because I love the idea rounding the square of some older lore an out the second founding and the proto Flesh Tearer scheme for BA is cool. 

I am with you. The narrative is really great, and I love that it actually scoots forward and is happening at the same time as the Siege. The feeling of spite and just straight up hatred between both sides is really palpable and there are tons of plot hooks and references to dig your teeth into.

As I said up-thread, I also Really Like the ZM rules.

[SkimaskMohawk]

2 hours ago, Brofist said:

The latest ZM rules invalidated my latest scars army. So I'm now 0 for 3 armies that I could play in ZM in 1.0 edition and can't in 2.0. I haven't been burned this bad since the 4th edition chaos codex. I'm close to calling it quits on the gaming part of the hobby tbh

 

There's some upsets in the ZM rule, generally speaking, from a balance perspective... but to me that's kinda secondary to having an army I can use.

 

Idk anything about ZM, you mind elaborating on what changed in army comp and the rules?

[Xenith]

1 hour ago, Mandragola said:

You're well into death star points territory of course, but it could be fun to try.

 I've found that it's usually other tanks going after my preds, while the lascannon HSS squads are shooting up my dreads, or going after Kratos/Spartans. I'm still looking at the other battle weapon one, as shooting the predators who can then fire back with 8 culverins and 4 magna meltas is mutually assured destruction at it's finest. 

[Ripper.McGuirl]

6 minutes ago, SkimaskMohawk said:

 

Idk anything about ZM, you mind elaborating on what changed in army comp and the rules?

Not a ton actually changed in the comp or the basic rules, actually. They did state no cavalry, you can't use jump or jet packs, and only one dread per 1K. 
The main changes is that there is a different reserves mechanic, and different secondaries. The reserves are based on Reinforcement Points, and every time you deploy a unit, you have to pay points out of a pool. You get 6 points to start and 2 points per turn. Each force org slot costs different amount of points to deploy. The deployment maps also state which board edges count as flanks, and you can always bring models on via those, but it cost extra reserves points.
The secondaries are different in that they don't have, for instance, Slay the Warlord, but they do have one that gives you a VP every time you kill a character in a challenge, and another that gives you a point every time you kill an HQ or Elite.
Brofist: That's a bummer you were planning on running your rad Scars in ZM. But if you're running the event, you can just say "you can use cavalry/jump packs". I dunno, maybe the zone you're in has really narrow but really tall hallways.
The rules don't do anything for actual void combat like they had in first edition, where you can get blasted off the hull and what not, but I think that was in a separate book in the original run, too. There's actually several things that aren't in here that were in 1st ed, and all of them are pretty simple ports, it just requires re-typing them.
I will say the Boarding Action rules from 40k are much more insane and have way more bonkers missions that sound awesome. Those are all based on very very specific terrain layouts though, and the new ZM ones are more universal.

[Mandragola]

1 hour ago, Noserenda said:

Arent Volkite sponsons the same cost as lascannons though? Which would answer the range problem and be more broadly useful? 

They are, but lascannons aren't defensive weapons. A Decurion Defensor can't make you fire them before the enemy shoots you, but with Volkites you can. Their 45" range means that it's fairly unlikely that most 48" range weapons will be able to fire at you and avoid taking something back.

[XiaphasJurr]

How do you guys feel about the Defensor for Salamanders Predators?

The reaction allows for maximum number of hits with any Wall of Death attacks, so Dragon's Breath heavy flamers would get 6 auto hits each with the pintle firing twice. 

With 4 Preds that would be 96 auto hits at S6 lol. Probably only worth it for the memes though I guess, since 8" range really does hurt and is really easy for the enemy to avoid.

[Brofist]

Yeah the jump / jet pack pack restriction plus not being able to take bikes nuked all the work I did over an entire year. I basically only play ZM, so it hits me especially hard. My mech list was invalidated in the rules updates when 2.0 released and my crows had two units removed from the army list in the .pdf. Feels real bad man.

[Brofist]

They also broke the White Scar legion trait, as seizing the initiative and first turn are named different things now.

Me right now: seething the initiative

Edited May 30, 2023 by Brofist

[Spagunk]

Can confirm that all of Brofist's beautiful boiz will be missed.

I too am seriously considering shelving my Jump units for ZM games. They're only good for deepstrike deployments now.

[Ripper.McGuirl]

@Brofist Yeah there are some rules around seizing that need to be clarified now in ZM. Things like the recon rite as written don't quite work. Also, things like the headhunter and decapitation rites don't actually work at the moment because there is no Slay the Warlord secondary.
I basically only play ZM as well, so I can totally understand being frustrated that the work you did doesn't port over. If it were me, I'd just say "can we ignore that?" and my friends would say "yes", and that would be the end of it. But I also don't play at a store or in events these days, so I realize not everyone can do the same.
I will say I expected there to be some kind of restriction on jump troops, even if it was just dangerous terrain tests. Shooting down hallways does not sound like a safe time, to me. You could also just say their movement benefit is halved, or their not allowed to go through doors when boosting.
Also: Seething the Initiative sounds like a new podcast idea, to me.

 

[Xenith]

1 hour ago, Spagunk said:

I too am seriously considering shelving my Jump units for ZM games. They're only good for deepstrike deployments now.

 

You can still use the WD ZM rules, right? You'll still be able to use the jump models, just not activate the pack. Or agree with your opponent to take them, but not activate the pack.

 

Either way, it makes sense to me not to have dudes with jump packs in areas with low ceilings. 

[Ripper.McGuirl]

1 hour ago, Xenith said:

 

You can still use the WD ZM rules, right? You'll still be able to use the jump models, just not activate the pack. Or agree with your opponent to take them, but not activate the pack.

 

Either way, it makes sense to me not to have dudes with jump packs in areas with low ceilings. 

Yeah, you can still take them in ZM games with the new rules, you just can't use the pack except to make it cost less Reinforcement points to deploy them.
I guess the other option is always to rip jump packs off, magnetize them, and paint and mag a bunch of backpacks to swap. I understand thats a total pain in the ass, though. 

[Spagunk]

3 hours ago, Xenith said:

 

You can still use the WD ZM rules, right? You'll still be able to use the jump models, just not activate the pack. Or agree with your opponent to take them, but not activate the pack.

 

Either way, it makes sense to me not to have dudes with jump packs in areas with low ceilings. 

Actually, the group I play with won't. I don't have a local scene so I have a group of friends that meet up every so often (brofist is part of that group). So the 1-2 times a year I get to play won't opt to use the WD version.

Also, the group won't play without ceilings because we have some guys who put together nasty fulmentarus list.

Edited May 30, 2023 by Spagunk

[Brofist]

I'm amused that bikes and jetpacks are not allowed, but you can still shoot through walls with fulmentarus

[Gorgoff]

7 hours ago, Spagunk said:

Actually, the group I play with won't. I don't have a local scene so I have a group of friends that meet up every so often (brofist is part of that group). So the 1-2 times a year I get to play won't opt to use the WD version.

Also, the group won't play without ceilings because we have some guys who put together nasty fulmentarus list.

 

3 hours ago, Brofist said:

I'm amused that bikes and jetpacks are not allowed, but you can still shoot through walls with fulmentarus

So if both if you are in the same group and both of you rightfully think the rules suck isn't the obvious solution that both of you play together and tell the rest of your friends that they should stop being pedantic about it and let you guys have fun too?

[Spagunk]

17 minutes ago, Gorgoff said:

 

So if both if you are in the same group and both of you rightfully think the rules suck isn't the obvious solution that both of you play together and tell the rest of your friends that they should stop being pedantic about it and let you guys have fun too?

That's not exactly how that works and It's not as simple as you make it seem.

Also, I never said the rules suck, I said the situation created by the rules suck. There is a difference.

Edited May 31, 2023 by Spagunk

[Gorgoff]

56 minutes ago, Spagunk said:

That's not exactly how that works and It's not as simple as you make it seem.

Also, I never said the rules suck, I said the situation created by the rules suck. There is a difference.

Ok, obviously you know better what happens in your live. I just thought I could help. Sometimes one doesn't see the solution because it is to near. 

We have a saying: Sometimes you can't see the forest because of all the trees. :D

 

It's a pity that it doesnt work this way. I wouldn't mind if you wanted to use jump packs or bikes or militia though.

[Stitch5000]

4 hours ago, Brofist said:

I'm amused that bikes and jetpacks are not allowed, but you can still shoot through walls with fulmentarus

The rules literally state that you cannot shoot through walls. 

"If a path cannot be traced between two models due to intervening Wall Terrain and Door Terrain in the Closed state, the effects of any rule that affects models within a defined range that does not require line of sight do not apply and no attack can be made using a weapon with the Barrage, Guided Fire or any other rule that allows attacks to be made without line of sight."