Siege of Cthonia thoughts

[Squark]

On 6/6/2023 at 4:57 AM, Mardi said:

The decurions are a bit weird since you cannot take them in a lot of tanks such as many of the sicaran models and super heavies, why?

The Sicarin variants can't take them because Decurions require you to have an optional pintle mount spot, which only the Autcannon and Punisher have. The superheavues can take pintle mounts, though, so in theory they could have been able to take Decurions if GW wanted. Although I'm not sure where on the Glaive such a pintle mount goes. Don't superheavies have reduced ability to make reactions, though?

 

(Edited for clarity)

Edited June 7, 2023 by Squark

[SkimaskMohawk]

So I finished the story of SoC, the good news being that I was wrong on how much pride drove decision making (I had basically stopped right before the attack on the outer wall, where it's then revealed that it was all an elaborate ruse). I still think the attack on the landing area was a completely terrible idea, but it's a gamble rather than a chain of bad ideas that's being forced due to pride.

 

Don't think the DAs added anything either. Still got the "why not go to terra" issue, but also like, the daemons were already on the loose. Have the daemons kill the world and any hope of restoring honour.

 

And then theres some consistency problems.

 

• Neither Horus nor dorn caring about the all-in on terra is an obvious one. There's references to the ruinstorm being active as the fleet is on route to cthonia, but the book still says it was dispersed by Sanguinis at davin, which is...2 years before Horus takes beta garmon?
• The SoH main guy leading a cult of "real warriors that don't need the warp"; why does abaddon never reflect on this movement? Realizing how much brotherhood matters and how the old ways are being discarded is his entire arc.
• The book also says tallarn fels, it's forces in tatters and companies run away from it...when did this happen? Tallarn was a vacuum of resources, it didn't hemorrhage them. The loyalists held it against the iron warriors; the last sentence from the novel is "Imperium victor, it read. Tallarn stands.".

Idk, I don't like inconsistentcies in the narrative in general, and I really hate it when the forgeworld books contradict the good novels (like malevolence and Scars, and crusade and Savage Weapons). I'd give the story like a C.

[Brofist]

How do units that don't take up a FOC slot work in regards to the new reinforcements mechanic?

[Marshal Rohr]

1 hour ago, SkimaskMohawk said:

And then theres some consistency problems.

 

• Neither Horus nor dorn caring about the all-in on terra is an obvious one. There's references to the ruinstorm being active as the fleet is on route to cthonia, but the book still says it was dispersed by Sanguinis at davin, which is...2 years before Horus takes beta garmon?
• The SoH main guy leading a cult of "real warriors that don't need the warp"; why does abaddon never reflect on this movement? Realizing how much brotherhood matters and how the old ways are being discarded is his entire arc.
• The book also says tallarn fels, it's forces in tatters and companies run away from it...when did this happen? Tallarn was a vacuum of resources, it didn't hemorrhage them. The loyalists held it against the iron warriors; the last sentence from the novel is "Imperium victor, it read. Tallarn stands.".

Idk, I don't like inconsistentcies in the narrative in general, and I really hate it when the forgeworld books contradict the good novels (like malevolence and Scars, and crusade and Savage Weapons). I'd give the story like a C.

1- The Ruinstorm did abate After the distraction of Davin, there was still a not insignificant amount of warp turbulence effecting the Galaxy due to the widespread daemonic activity

2- Abaddon never reflects on it because all of the Heresy books and Solar war books except maybe Echoes and Dan’s last two were written before this. 
3- The Imperials had to abandon Tallarn. It’s in the passage of the Angel of death or one of the exemplary battles I believe. 

[Ripper.McGuirl]

20 minutes ago, Brofist said:

How do units that don't take up a FOC slot work in regards to the new reinforcements mechanic?

For Retinues, they are part of the reinforcement cost that the attached HQ pays. So, a command squad on a delegatus would cost 2 RP if they were deployed at the beginning of the game and he was your HQ, or 4 otherwise.
I'm honestly blanking on other things that don't take up slots.

[Gorgoff]

Apos etc cost nothing because they are part of other units.

The Warlord cost only half the points if you deploy him as part of the starting force. I guess 2 points is ok for that. 

[Brofist]

2 hours ago, Ripper.McGuirl said:

For Retinues, they are part of the reinforcement cost that the attached HQ pays. So, a command squad on a delegatus would cost 2 RP if they were deployed at the beginning of the game and he was your HQ, or 4 otherwise.
I'm honestly blanking on other things that don't take up slots.

 

There are some .pdf units that get a bonus unit that sit outside the FOC

[Ripper.McGuirl]

Do mean like Narik Dreygur getting a veteran squad he can hang with? I would think someone like that you would just deploy them with him. There's probably lots of little interactions like that that will need a ruling. Also things like "anything that must be deployed in reserves cannot be taken", which I assume is meant to cover things liked drop pods, precludes things from certain rites like the recon rite where anything Heavy must be held in reserve. Maybe that's intentional, as it could represent a fast moving recon force that doesn't have time to wait for the terminators to catch up?

[SkimaskMohawk]

2 hours ago, Marshal Rohr said:

1- The Ruinstorm did abate After the distraction of Davin, there was still a not insignificant amount of warp turbulence effecting the Galaxy due to the widespread daemonic activity

2- Abaddon never reflects on it because all of the Heresy books and Solar war books except maybe Echoes and Dan’s last two were written before this. 
3- The Imperials had to abandon Tallarn. It’s in the passage of the Angel of death or one of the exemplary battles I believe. 

 

1. This is a quote straight from the book:

 

Quote

Following the auguries of their navigators and the occult foresight of Praetor Mordakar’s Word Bearers esoterists, the invasion fleet travelled unperturbed by the thrashing fury of the Ruinstorm. Now that Horus battled to control the very heart of the Imperium itself, the storm had become a frenzied maelstrom that stymied all attempts by the Loyalists to move at speed through the Warp, but to Vheren and his ships it posed no threat at all.

 

It's explicitly still active. But also stated to have dispersed on pages 106 and 107. 

 

2. Yes, obviously the character was never written. That's my point; making up "actually influential and important" characters at this point creates inconsistentcies. And that he undermines abaddons arc if a dedicated group of 20000 marines already came to the same realization.

 

3.....I know what this book says about tallarn. It doesn't say why or how. The loyalists beat the iron warriors there and had an absolutely massive force; SoC states that Tallarn was still extremely important, so what happened? Dorn is known for reinforcing lynchpin worlds, not stripping their defences. What attacked tallarn that was able to re-overwhelm them, to the point that they won where the iron warriors couldn't (taking into account all the shelters and lack of virus bomb surprise). Oh wait, the death of tallarn entry in SoC has the same time stamp as the iron warriors attack:

 

Spoiler

This is mirrored on page 14 of the AT2018 rulebook 

 

And this is from retribution 

 

 

 

So yea, they just decided it actually fell. Somehow.

[Marshal Rohr]

Yes, the book series ended with Tallarn standing and then later at an undisclosed point in time, the forces on Tallarn were redeployed elsewhere. 

Edited June 7, 2023 by Marshal Rohr
They could also be referring to Tallarn going from nice, temperate world to toxic hellscape as ‘falling’ using imprecise language.

[Fallen11]

17 hours ago, Squark said:

The Sicarin variants can't take them because Decurions require you to have an optional pintle mount spot, which only the Autcannon and Punisher have. The superheavues can, though... Although I'm not sure where on the Glaive such a pintle mount goes. Don't superheavies have reduced anility to make reactions, though?

You sure super heavy can take them?
Why did they only list predator/sicaran/punisher and kratos squadron? 

[SkimaskMohawk]

Yea it's hard to parse when they say both tallarn and beta garmon fall one sentence to the next. But BGs loss "less than a year later" still puts the "fall" of tallarn in the normal battle of tallarn time. So yea, the authors of SoC are deciding something different happened, much like thramas and chondax. 

[Squark]

43 minutes ago, Fallen11 said:

You sure super heavy can take them?
Why did they only list predator/sicaran/punisher and kratos squadron? 

Sorry, I meant Super heavies can take pintle mounted weapons, so I wasn't sure why they couldn't take Decurions, as opposed to the other Sicarin Variants, which can't take the pintle mounted gun the Decurion mandates.

[Noserenda]

Yeah the fluff standards still arent up to "Better BL books and early FW books" really, particularly the consistency like this, which was the watchword of the better produced ones. Like, i generally prefer the loose canon approach for 40k but 30k felt like it had a more consistent through line around the main plot and left the grey areas around the margins (Like, 99% of the galaxy) I suspect Laurie Golding would scoff :D 

[Astartes Consul]

Odd question but, has anyone else noticed that the capitalisation of anything that isn't a strict proper noun has changed? I'm assuming I don't just have a freak copy, but it took me ages to work out why I kept on thinking the formatting in the background section was strange.

[Alpharius902]

50 minutes ago, Astartes Consul said:

Odd question but, has anyone else noticed that the capitalisation of anything that isn't a strict proper noun has changed? I'm assuming I don't just have a freak copy, but it took me ages to work out why I kept on thinking the formatting in the background section was strange.

 

Yeah, I saw the same thing, it felt exceptionally weird

[SkimaskMohawk]

3 hours ago, Astartes Consul said:

Odd question but, has anyone else noticed that the capitalisation of anything that isn't a strict proper noun has changed? I'm assuming I don't just have a freak copy, but it took me ages to work out why I kept on thinking the formatting in the background section was strange.

 

You mean like lower case justaerin and mor deythan? If so I noticed too; rangers and head hunters are generic enough terms for scouts/recons and kill squads. Even huscarls is fine as a bodyguard term. But the deliverers, justaerin and MD aren't terms that really mean anything outside of being titles.

[Torbenos]

For those with the book out there. Does the Zone Mortalis rules or anywhere else I have missed remark upon what to do with the like of Militia Infantry Squads that come as more than 15 base? Split into two units of 10 like in 1E or something new?

[SkimaskMohawk]

1 hour ago, Torbenos said:

For those with the book out there. Does the Zone Mortalis rules or anywhere else I have missed remark upon what to do with the like of Militia Infantry Squads that come as more than 15 base? Split into two units of 10 like in 1E or something new?

 

You're just barred from taking them.

 

[Runefyre]

I would love to play a house-ruled version of ZM, allowing Militia to take as many guys per squad as they want, just flood the hallways with bodies. Play the Strategium Mission with nothing but flamer wielding Astartes as the defenders, basically the WH40K: Space Marine horde mode but with Militia instead of orks.

[Gorgoff]

1 hour ago, Runefyre said:

I would love to play a house-ruled version of ZM, allowing Militia to take as many guys per squad as they want, just flood the hallways with bodies. Play the Strategium Mission with nothing but flamer wielding Astartes as the defenders, basically the WH40K: Space Marine horde mode but with Militia instead of orks.

Do it 

[Noserenda]

Feels off to just ban them, with the increase in base sizes it takes quite a few 25mm humans to fill the same space as 32mm armies. 

[Brofist]

To be fair, its always been like that in ZM. The issue aren't the ZM rules, but the militia list itself

[Stitch5000]

You could play larger squads in a "narrative" setting, when you and your opponent are knowingly getting involved in a game, but it wouldn't be great to turn up to a ZM event and find your opponent was fielding huge amount of models like...

 

[Harrowmaster]

If you take Warrior Elite grenadiers lose support squad. Then you can do ZM as their base size is 10.

 

It's far from ideal but it's the only way to get a militia list into ZM without houserules or fan FAQs.