Deathwing Command Squad Preview

[FarFromSam]

Although we don't have points values, or character upgrades,  or special rules  we can see how GW has tried their hand at balancing the kit.  

 

The DW Command Squad has been dramatically changed to allow up to ten models of you include attached characters.   This hasn't been allowed ever for marines.  The closest comparable  might be a chapter master's honor guard that could field 10.  

 

What really interests me though are the load outs for the basic members.  

 

Chainfists are the obvious Anti armor choice.

Lightning Claws have an impressive 5 attacks to clear chaff

PF are the solid heavy infantry removal choice.

Thunder Hammers... well there are Thunder Hammers...

 

So, my question is, if all loadouts cost the same,  how are you kitting out your new DW squads?  It feels like this has made options out of a pretty binary system. 

 

Can anyone sell me on TH/SS?  What am I missing.  I'm not sold on giving up a SB and more effective CC attacks for one extra wound.  Even with an apothecary.  Maybe if it was +2wounds?  To skew off 2D attacks.  

 

Anyway.  Things look fun for us!

 

[Dumah]

I think the Thunder Hammer option will be the go to option for forcing through mortal wounds on units with strong invuln saves and/or FNP. 

[FarFromSam]

Perhaps.  I wonder what the save would have to be in order for the lower WS to balance fishing for 6's on the wound.  Also, I didn't know that MW stopped FnP this edition.  Cool!

[CCE1981]

Thunder Hammers I think will be incredible en-masse, one or two just won’t get the Crits you want, but enough of them will get Crits reliably enough.  
 

That extra wound will help against 1 and 3 damage weapons.  Three damage weapons exist mostly to kill Terminators and having an extra wound will help against those.
 

My ideal Squad would be 3x Thunderhammer Stormshields, 2x Lightning Claws, 2x Chainfist and Assault Cannons, and the Champion, Apothecary, and Ancient.

[Wrath of Bruinen]

Depending on the missions/scoring structure, but I see the command squad as a great mid-board objective holder. The ancient hands out an extra point of OC, the apothecary lends durability, and the champion's free heroic intervention means that enemy units can't risk coming too close to try and steal the objective. 

 

With that in mind, I'm thinking a mix of TH/SS and regular scrubs to maximise the benefits of wound allocation. For heavy weapons, two heavy flamers might help establish a no go zone (now that you can overwatch after movement), but CML or AC might help prevent the unit from being kited and give them some more reach while they occupy the middle

[FarFromSam]

I like this idea.  I had the thought of using the pyreblasters in a drop pod to OW on an opponents turn, and these guys would be great to have nearby to heroic int. And save them.  

 

Hopefully they're cheap enough to field a couple of units.

[Dumah]

11 hours ago, farfromsam said:

Also, I didn't know that MW stopped FnP this edition.  Cool!

 

That's a possibly erroneous assumption on my part. Not really sure that's the case...

[Tacitus]

I don't know if Thunderhammers are as bad as people think.  This Terminator Squad doesn't have the "Fury of the First" bonus to OOM targets like the regular Terminator Squad (Or at least appears not to) but even 4+ Rerolled is a 75% hit rate, with about a 20% Devastating rate.   Even without the extra wound from the Storm Shield that feels pretty equivalent to the power fist.  When/If they update the Hammer to Anti-Vehicle/Monster it just gets better. 

 

 

Edit:  Also as far as Unit composition - it looks like its minimum 5 - all three specialists, plus 2-7 which is probably why we don't see anything about upgrade one to an Apothecary/Ancient/etc.

Edited June 6, 2023 by Tacitus

[Interrogator Stobz]

Yep, looking like we have to find two minis to complete the minimum squad size like a couple of dexes ago. 

 

Seems great that another five Deathwing can join them for 10 total. Gotta maximise those gains.

 

I wonder if we'll keep Strike Masters now the other minor Characters have been rolled into a unit.

 

Also, it looks a no brainer for Heavy Weapon choice.

The CML looks only a smidge worse than the others against almost everything and simply better than the PC at everything.

And that's before you shoot the Storm Bolter.  

Edited June 6, 2023 by Interrogator Stobz

[FarFromSam]

10 hours ago, Tacitus said:

I don't know if Thunderhammers are as bad as people think.  This Terminator Squad doesn't have the "Fury of the First" bonus to OOM targets like the regular Terminator Squad (Or at least appears not to) but even 4+ Rerolled is a 75% hit rate, with about a 20% Devastating rate.   Even without the extra wound from the Storm Shield that feels pretty equivalent to the power fist.  When/If they update the Hammer to Anti-Vehicle/Monster it just gets better. 

 

 

Edit:  Also as far as Unit composition - it looks like its minimum 5 - all three specialists, plus 2-7 which is probably why we don't see anything about upgrade one to an Apothecary/Ancient/etc.

You may have won me over.  It's a bit of an eggs in one basket, but a TDA Librarian in the mix will give them sustained hits 1 as well.   What a boon all around.  Thank you for that.

 

And It would be pretty funny if the first Squad in the first company of the First chapter of the first legion didn't have fury of the First.

 

And Stobz I'm with ya on the CML.  I love the look of the PC but it looks like another edition of sit there and look pretty.  And the AC, it's better with Devastating wounds, but l tossing it sustained hits would not have made it fun but not over the top.  Still, an improvement is an improvement.

 

So much still to learn, and numbers haven't even been added to the mix yet.

 

  Let's start a prediction.  What's the 10 man DW Command Squad with 2 CML, 3 TH/SS, and 2 Chainfists going to cost?  I'm guessing 450

[Commissar Yossarian]

Given the likely points of the unit and attached character this seems like an all or nothing type unit that wants desperately to be in combat as much as possible.

 

Since none of the weapons options have Assault I would go double CML w/ CF. This maximizes shooting output and in most situations I am pretty sure the CML will be more effective than the other specials, except in an over watch scenario, and then honestly.... 'come at me bro'.

 

For the rest of the squad probably no more than 1 TH/SS for wound allocation shenanigans and 0-3 LC's (have the models incase your match up is paper thin infantry). I get the sense the PFs will just outperform everything else.

 

For a squad that macerates really heavy things with devastating wounds a unit of 5 TH/SS termies makes more sense than the mix and match in the command squad. The regular squad should also benefit from the teleport homer allowing for Rapid Ingress, which the Command Squad appears to not get. Finally, if mixed wings are viable and the rules allow for it a LR to drive forward with a supporting squad that swaps out with the TH/SS termies might be enough to give them play in the 4th/5th round, or at least keep them alive with target saturation.

 

The biggest question though will be seeing what the characters will do/allow for. Depending on embedded bonuses I would likely lean into a Chaplain if they would give more move/advance/charge bonuses, but the other characters might provide something equal or better.

 

 

 

 

[Prot]

What has occurred to me this edition is you need anti vehicle, and it typically seems they are removing that 'efficiency' from infantry units unless they are specialized. For this reason alone I do like hammers. I don't like fists/chainfists just because the 2 wounds seems so paltry. I used to use a lot of chainfists in 9th but I think hammers are at least going to spike on those MW's once in a while.

 

I do like the shields. I think at least a few will be nice for wound allocation. Your opponent has to target you first, so you can always decide the economy of the wound allocation to your benefit.

[FarFromSam]

Ya know.  A break down of chainfist vs Th vs targets with a toughness greater than 8  with no rerolls would be interesting.   Especially on a breakdown between armor save 2 and 3.  

 

A 2+ save is basically a 4++ for all weapon the termis carry in CC.  So those MW may... win out.

 

5 th is 7.5 hits.. so at least 2 wound from devastating wounds, and 1 or 2 hitting 5s so another 2 wounds getting through...5 chainfists kinda the same huh?  Interesting.  Might break down to whether you value you extra wound or a couple more ranged shots.  (If they're priced the same)

 

My thoughts skew if you're packing 4 to 5 hundred points on a unit you wouldn't feel good about spending oaths of moments on the same target that a quarter of your army is already focused on.

 

I like that vehicles/monsters require dedicated antivehicle.  I hope they find a vehicle/infantry balance.  

 

Alright I'm rambling, and enjoying the input.  

[Commissar Yossarian]

With many vehicles being over T8 the chain fists will almost always win out. 

 

That said I think they are more for insurance vs dreads/knights etc, rather than a focus play.

 

The only time I see TH/SS being really worth it is en mass and against other 2+/4++ type targets or equally hard things.

You need enough attacks that the stats smooth out and you can reliably work on ~3 mortals. Otherwise you're likely to spike down and completely bounce.

 

They are also a candidate for a Land Raider in this edition, with the assault ramp they would have reasonable threat radius.

 

[Tacitus]

15 hours ago, Prot said:

What has occurred to me this edition is you need anti vehicle, and it typically seems they are removing that 'efficiency' from infantry units unless they are specialized. For this reason alone I do like hammers. I don't like fists/chainfists just because the 2 wounds seems so paltry. I used to use a lot of chainfists in 9th but I think hammers are at least going to spike on those MW's once in a while.

 

I do like the shields. I think at least a few will be nice for wound allocation. Your opponent has to target you first, so you can always decide the economy of the wound allocation to your benefit.

Infantry is just not going to do well vs Heavy Tank (Think Landraiders, Leman Russ, Knights, etc: Say T10-11 or so) and above - Look at everything released, even the Swarmlord and his Bone swords are not cracking tanks like they used to (Unless there's a buff to Monsters in the BRB)  - I think you're going to have to look at tanks kind of like aircraft.  Aircraft are like a second game going on the same table because so little interaction outside the shooting phase.  I think you're going to have to look at Tanks in a similar fashion.  Most factions will only be able to take on Tanks with Tanks.  Which means you need some Tanks for the odd Knight or Knight army, which means everyone else needs tanks to take your tanks.  The Take All Comers List is very unlikely to be Infantry only anymore.   Space Marines are in a bit of a tough spot because they usually put man-portable guns (lascannon, assault cannon, etc) on their tanks. the Gladiator, Repuslor (Maybe only the Executioner), and the Vindicator are about the only sources of S11+ shooting.   Even Guard will have a difficult time spamming enough lascannon to do it infantry heavy.  Aeldari will be Fireprisms and Artiller, Orks will be Mek Guns, and maybe a Stompa (They were certainly trying to sell some in the preview).

[Interrogator Stobz]

Vindis are on the Legends list. 

Hopefully just the HH variant but it could mean all.....

[Orange Knight]

Hi, jut dropping by.

 

I just wanted to say that I am very jealous of this unit. It's powerful, but also thematic in the best way possible. I love how it's basically 3 heroes, in a unit supported by a number of elite Terminators. I think a full squad of 10 would probably be best.

 

Will people be converting these using the bodies from the new Kit?

[Interrogator Stobz]

Yeah it's gonna be a very cool unit. Big is best.

 

Am I right we can only attach one Character all game?

 

Mine will be mini TDA, but it will be awesome to see the new huge fellas converted to Deathwing. 

[FarFromSam]

Tactics, you make a good point,  even a humble rhino, or chimera sees a chance of surviving a round of combat against a full 10 man squad of terminators in combat (assuming they're >8T, and around 10 wounds with a 3+)  

 

The game may change to putting high OC units on Objectives, and tying up the opponent's lethal units with cheap vehicles in CC. 

 

Bubble wrap, and cheap units are not our strong suit.  It will be fun to find solutions to the new style of play.   And I think you're on to something when you say it will be a separate game within a game, like flyers.  I have ignored flyers for... 4 or 5 editions now.  I don't think I'll have that luxury with vehicles this go round.

[Prot]

3 hours ago, Orange Knight said:

Hi, jut dropping by.

 

I just wanted to say that I am very jealous of this unit. It's powerful, but also thematic in the best way possible. I love how it's basically 3 heroes, in a unit supported by a number of elite Terminators. I think a full squad of 10 would probably be best.

 

Will people be converting these using the bodies from the new Kit?

 

This is a question I am pondering myself. I have a few spare kits laying around but if the proportions are off, it won't match up well. The Knights for instance with the robes... I can't see them working with the new kits. Perhaps a vanilla looking command squad with a few bits, but aside from the odd piece it may not work blending with the new termies.

 

 

3 hours ago, Interrogator Stobz said:

Yeah it's gonna be a very cool unit. Big is best.

 

Am I right we can only attach one Character all game?

 

Mine will be mini TDA, but it will be awesome to see the new huge fellas converted to Deathwing. 

 

I don't know about only attaching 1 character to a squad. I had assumed so... just because of deathstar possibilities. But this unit is going to be good... good and fluffy to use. 

 

I will say the Chaos new terminator kit was ever so slightly bigger than the old one so it might actually work to do arm swaps (I did it on my Chaos Termies). 

[Tacitus]

19 hours ago, farfromsam said:

Tactics, you make a good point,  even a humble rhino, or chimera sees a chance of surviving a round of combat against a full 10 man squad of terminators in combat (assuming they're >8T, and around 10 wounds with a 3+)  

 

The game may change to putting high OC units on Objectives, and tying up the opponent's lethal units with cheap vehicles in CC. 

 

Bubble wrap, and cheap units are not our strong suit.  It will be fun to find solutions to the new style of play.   And I think you're on to something when you say it will be a separate game within a game, like flyers.  I have ignored flyers for... 4 or 5 editions now.  I don't think I'll have that luxury with vehicles this go round.

We've already seen the Rhino: Vehicles Are Even Tougher in the New Edition of Warhammer 40,000 - Warhammer Community (warhammer-community.com)

 

T8, W10, 3+ 

[FarFromSam]

Thanks for the link,  T9, W10, 3+ that's tough for 10 termies to crack

[WrathOfTheLion]

On 6/7/2023 at 5:12 AM, Orange Knight said:

Hi, jut dropping by.

 

I just wanted to say that I am very jealous of this unit. It's powerful, but also thematic in the best way possible. I love how it's basically 3 heroes, in a unit supported by a number of elite Terminators. I think a full squad of 10 would probably be best.

 

Will people be converting these using the bodies from the new Kit?

I've already got them, so I'm not planning on converting new ones. If they refresh the kit when the DA codex comes out, then I'll build a new set.

[Tacitus]

16 hours ago, farfromsam said:

Thanks for the link,  T9, W10, 3+ that's tough for 10 termies to crack

Not really - with 30 melee attacks + shooting.

I mean do 30 Chainfist and its a laugher - hit on 4+ 15 hit, with a potential of 7.5 more from rerolls, but 15 hit, 5 wound - but wait, Anti-Vehicle 3+ means 10 wound- save on a 5+ 6.67 get through for over 12 damage. 

 

Double Cyclones can pop one MOST of the time on their own.

 

30 Power Fists are 20 hits, 6 wounds, 4 unsaved, 8 damage. 

 

30 Thunder Hammers 15 hits, 5 wound probably 4 unsaved with counting some Mortal in there. 

 

And that's before Strats and OOM - Of course that's also After 10 of the dudes which is way more expensive than a Rhino, and you've got nothing left for whatever is getting OUT of said Rhino.  And before the FAQ/Update makes TH/SS better than it is.  Perhaps Anti-Everything 5+ to kick off Devastating Wounds a little more often. 

 

A Rhino or a Speeder is still pretty vulnerable to Infantry.  The Gladiator at T10, 12W 3+ is starting to get out of 1-turned-by Infantry.  The Repulsor and Land Raider is even more so at T12, W16. 3+/2+ -    After about T10 it's pretty much about the wound count.  Before T10 the infantry will be able to win on SvT like normal.  After T10, they just don't really get the attacks to win on SvT and it turns into a numbers game, which means Damage vs Wounds.  This is how they protected the Tanks from the Grav Canon etc. 

 

4 Grav Cannon (assuming same-ish Stats) 4 x4 shots = 16 shots, 12ish hits, S5 vs T10 wounds on 6's.   2 wounds, about 1 save, 

 

For a first run, its not bad, but I hope they're not done yet.  There's still too much overlap.  I would have started Monsters/Vehicles at T10 for the light ones, taken the heavy weapons and figured out which was vs which vehicle i.e. autocannon vs speeders and sentinel type stuff, lascannon against everything, melta against everything but close up,  Plasma vs Rhinos and Predators, 

 

And/Or give vehicles a ridiculous FNP vs S(X) and under.   You shot a T8 Land Raider with a S5 Grav Cannon?  Its got a FNP of 2+.   The rare thing like Haywire low S Anti-Vehicle? Ignores FNP. 

 

 

 

[Interrogator Stobz]

Plasma needs to do more damage, it does 3MW when it overheats so should do at least that when it doesn't.

D2 normal, D3 supercharged is needed to make it work against anything. 

Shame it's too late for GW to get things right until 11th.