10th ed. Fly, aircraft and terrain.

[Ahzek451]

I could be missing something completely obvious, therefore I am ready for a good facepalm. 

Reading how the fly keyword, movement, and how aircraft work, I am aware of RAI, but by the strict wording of what I see, models that fly do not simply just "jump over" terrain. If, for example, a hive tyrant with wings wants to go over a 9" tall ruin, it cannot simply just pop over to the other side of the wall for a total of lets say 4" horizontal movement. The terrain rule in the movement section mentions that a model cannot simply pass through, it must go over. 

Copy that, ok then. 

So then, according to the fly keyword, it will have to move "Through the air" as far as its move charactistic will take it, and most likely land on the top part of the ruin as it likely will not have enough inches to make it up and over to ground level on the other side. But then can it even do so? Because the fly wording says that this "through the air" type of movement is triggered when you START or END on terrain.

Am I interpretting this right?  In short, fly units need to move their distance through the air, and not just magically ignore terrain as there is a precedent that certain models(vehicles and monsters) cannot do so(fly or not), but fly allows you to make this special movement when you START or END movement on terrain. Although, it does specifically say it can move over enemy models as if they were not there. But it mentions nothing of terrain in this manner. 

If this is true, I cannot see anywhere in the aircraft verbage that says aircraft simply move straight over terrain. They have a minimum of 20" and no upper move limit, so then technically they move up and over terrain too during this movement? I suppose this only matters when what counts as the minimum movement? Could an aircraft then be "slowed down" if it starts its move on the other side of a tall ruin, and it measures its "through the air" movement up and over to the the other side of the wall, which will take up more of those inches and then just moving over flat land. But then can it even take advantage of the "through the air" type of measuring that fly gives if the flyer does not START or END its movment on the terrain?

Edited June 6, 2023 by Ahzek451

[Kallas]

On 6/5/2023 at 9:41 PM, Ahzek451 said:

Am I interpretting this right?

It definitely seems so, this question has cropped up on other platforms, so you're not alone in being confused about it. RAW, what you've said is correct: FLY units have to measure up and down as if they're 'climbing'.

 

On 6/5/2023 at 9:41 PM, Ahzek451 said:

Could an aircraft then be "slowed down" if it starts its move on the other side of a tall ruin, and it measures its "through the air" movement up and over to the the other side of the wall, which will take up more of those inches and then just moving over flat land. But then can it even take advantage of the "through the air" type of measuring that fly gives if the flyer does not START or END its movment on the terrain?

Again, RAW it definitely appears to be the case.

[Xenith]

So an AIRCRAFT with a 20+" movement could move 5" forward, 5" up, 5" across, then 5" down to clear a ruin, and end up with only a 10" horizontal displacement?

[Rogue]

Page 53 says that a flyer model must end its move with all parts of the model at least 20" from where it started.

 

The illustration on page 54 shows a flyer crossing over another (enemy) model, but still needing to be 20" from it's initial position (so no reduction for a diagonal move up and down).

 

So if you put down your flyer just 10" away from where it was, I'd feel pretty justified in saying 'That's not 20" away'.

 

Edited June 13, 2023 by Rogue
Errant apostrophe

[Ahzek451]

Well again, as I said before the fly keyword has that strange caveat that it can pass over models as if it were not there. According to the illustration that is the only thing it is doing, there is no building or wall in the image example. The image example is then correct as it is only showing an interaction with an enemy model. What I'm saying is that the verbiage works differently with terrain and therefore you must "clumb" up and over terrain and not simply ignore it like an enemy model.

 

Which Is weird, but I'm really just trying to point out how it functions as GW wrote it. If this was intended, its goofy as hell. If not, they need to take another stab at it.

 

Furthermore, ending 20" from where is started is still true if it is climbing up and down said terrain per how fly is written when interacting with terrain and "flying through the air".

[Ahzek451]

I geuss in short, by RAW, when it comes to bigger terrain like tall walls and tall buildings, whether you have fly or aircraft it doesnt matter. You must measure horizontal and vertical movement up and over such terrain like everyone else if your intent is to "jump over" the terrain. However, if you start or end your movement on the terrain, this is the only permissible time to measure "through the air". 

 

Aircraft in hover play by the same rules.

 

What gets wonky is aircraft not in hover mode. Since they have no upper limit, they could care less about measuring the distance since its unlimited. But when it comes to minimum movement, you must calculate that up and over distance of any tall terrain in your path. 

 

Again, the wording does not include models because it specifically says ignore them. 

Edited June 14, 2023 by Ahzek451

[Rogue]

Fair point. Models and terrain are different, rules-wise. And there's a glaring omission regarding flyers moving over terrain, which just isn't mentioned as part of the rules - moving over models, yes; moving onto or off of terrain, yes; but moving over terrain, nope.

 

That said, I'd come back to page 53, where it says:

 

Each time an aircraft model makes a normal move, first move the model straight forward, and it must move a minimum of 20" - all parts of the model's base must end the move at least this far from where they started.

 

This is summarised as: aircraft must move straight forward 20".

 

So I take you point about moving 5" forward, 5" up, 5" down and 5" forward again, but I don't think that's a fair interpretation of moving 20" straight forward. Because you haven't - you've moved 10" straight forward. And if you stop there, then your base is clearly well within 20" of your start point.

 

To push slightly further on that last point, there's no exception in the rule that specifies terrain or vertical movement. Whether you've 'moved' 20" or not, you're still within 20" of your start point if you've only moved 10" horizontally.

 

 

[Ahzek451]

I'd have to lean toward the "straight forward" part still having to abide by the pre existing mechanic of still having to climb over terrain, as what you described feels more like a literal  interpretation that doesnt specifically say it ignores the previous rules. The "straight forward" part is primarily there because flyers pivot as part of their movment. 

 

I think it would make more sense if GW added this after the "move straight forward" part:  "....ignoring intervening terrain as long as it doesnt begin or end its move on terrain."

 

But I can see what you are saying, either way it requires clarification/faq 

Edited June 14, 2023 by Ahzek451

[Ahzek451]

It's also worth noting, that strictly refering to FLY models and not Aircraft, GW wrote it in a funky way such as to make for some weird arial movement. Since the "fly through the air" movement is triggered when you start or end on terrain, you can get some funky stuff going over in and out of area terrain and walls. 

For example, starting on ground level open ground and ending on ground level area terrain but there is a wall in the middle. vs. the same situation but there is no area terrain. 2 weird ways to move that begins and ends on ground level. 

In situation 1. You end in area terrain and therefor trigger the "movement through the air" and can measure through the air up and over the wall ending in area terrain. 

In situation 2. You dont trigger the "movement through the air" since you dont start or end on terrain and you abide by the same rule as everyone else and measure to the wall, up the wall, and down the wall. 

The difference might actally end up being an inch or 2, but either way, its weird. 

[Rogue]

Hmm. I've probably missed something important, but looking at the rules commentary, it seems that fly movement over intervening terrain uses the shortest possible route - a diagonal 'move through the air' to the top of the terrain, a move across it, and another diagonal move down again. 

 

In the illustration used, the tyranid moves 8" diagonally, then 2" flat, then 6" diagonally again. This is identified as a 16" move. 

 

What this doesn't resolve (for me, at least) is whether a model doing something similar for a move of 20" has also moved the minimum 20" from  its starting point. It's made a 20" move, true; but the diagonal elements mean that it's still within 20" (horizontally speaking) of its start point.

 

Please tell me I've overlooked something.

 

 

[Dr_Ruminahui]

I think the aircraft rules do speak specifically to this, though not in the most obvious way.

 

The relevant language on their minimum move is as follows:

 

"Each time an Aircraft model makes a Normal move, first move the model straight forward, and it must
move a minimum of 20" – all parts of the model’s base must end the move at least this far from where
they started."

 

This is actually doing 2 things, though some of the confusion is that it appears to be conflating 2 different but closely related concepts.

 

1.   "it must move a minimum of 20" - This language specifies that that the model has to make a move of at least 20" - so, measuring diagonals up and then down over terrain, that distance must be 20+ inches.

 

2.  "all parts of the model’s base must end the move at least this far from where they started" - This language specifies that the final position must be at least 20 inches away from the starting position.

 

So, by my read an aircraft must actually move 20+ inches AND end up 20+ inches from its original position.  Given that satisfying the second criteria will (I think) always also satisfy the first, in practicality since there is no maximum move it is easier just to measure 20 inches across the table top and move that far, though by a strict application of the rules you probably have to measure both distances.

Edited June 20, 2023 by Dr_Ruminahui

[Rogue]

I feel like both or either parts of this rule might benefit from the addition of the word "horizontally".