Gladius Detachment Rules

[L30n1d4s]

From Auspex Tactics on YouTube and Invictarus on Reddit...

 

Looks very good overall, I especially like Storm of Fire to add some AP to shooting... Sternguard with AP-2 Bolters for at least one Shooting Phase!

 

Stratagems are as follows;

Storm of Fire 1CP: In the shooting phase, a unit gains ignores cover, or ignores cover and an extra AP if in Devastator Doctrine

Squad Tactics: At the end of the opponent’s move phase, if any enemy units are within 9” of a friendly unit, that unit can move D6 inches and not in engagement range, or 6” and not in engagement range in Tactical Doctrine.

Honour the Chapter 1CP: In the fight phase, a unit gains Lance (+1 to wound if unit charged), or Lance and an extra AP in the assault doctrine.

Armour of Contempt 1CP: When a unit is targeted for an attack, worsen attacks by 1 AP until the end of the phase.

Only in Death Does Duty End 2CP: When a unit is targeted in the fight phase, activate this stratagem. If a model would be destroyed, don’t remove them. At the end of the opponent’s attacks, you may fight with your destroyed models before removing them.

Adaptive Strategy: In your command phase select a unit, and select a doctrine. This doctrine is active for this unit until your next command phase

 

As for Enhancements;

Honour of Vehement: One of the model’s melee weapons gains +1 strength and attacks or +2 strength and attacks if in assault doctrine.

Artificer armour: Model gains 2+ save and 5+ Feel No Pain.

Bolter Discipline: Bearer’s unit gains Sustained hits. Not sure of value, probably Sustained Hits 1.

Adept of the Codex: Either bearer’s unit counts as in Tactical Doctrine, or you can select the doctrine at the beginning of the game. Not sure if this overrides the actual doctrine.

Edited June 7, 2023 by L30n1d4s

[Tokugawa]

Flexible and some flavorful. If the non-codex chapters don't have stratagems powerful enough, we can see players playing "different coloured ultramarines".

[Tacitus]

I'm just hoping they go back and "add" the enhancements back to the Epic Heroes i.e. Tiggy has almost always had Artificier Armor.  So has Calgar.  They should have a 2+/5+++ (And calgar should have his 4++ from his Iron Halo)  In other words all those special characters they've been telling us for 5 editions had Artificier Armor should have the rules for Artificier Armor too.   I'm totally OK with locking the Epic Heroes, but at the same time lets not take away the stuff they would/should have. 

[Orange Knight]

I'm really hoping this detachment isn't available to the unique chapters, such as Dark Angels, Black Templars and Space Wolves, if they actually take any of their epic heroes.

 

It doesn't help the "special snowflake" narrative and feel-bad factor if a Dark Angel detachment led by the Lion and Azrael can use the Gladius Strike Force, but an Imperial Fist army led by Tor Garadon is restricted from running the Sons of Sanguinius detachment.

 

The rules need to offer a fair element of give and take, and not punish one set of factions with rule limitations that don't apply to the rest. I am happy to support divergent chapters receiving more support and unique rules, so long as that divergence isn't simply an advantage when it comes to options and choice.

 

If the army being run is generic (ignoring the paint scheme), and does not feature any chapter affiliated units, then all detachments should be open to all players.

Edited June 7, 2023 by Orange Knight

[Captain Idaho]

All detachments are available to all Chapters.

 

I'm liking the tie in to the wider rules. Honour Vehement looks interesting to boost a character's offensive clout in a turn with Assault Doctrine or just generally. Could be some sneaky ploys with things like Chainfists to net anti-vehicle etc.

 

Adaptive Strategy looks interesting for the likes of pulling a unit out of combat whilst in another Doctrine, or giving another unit a chance to advance and charge. Seems to tie in with Honour Vehement to boost a character each turn potentially.

[Karhedron]

2 hours ago, Orange Knight said:

It doesn't help the "special snowflake" narrative and feel-bad factor if a Dark Angel detachment led by the Lion and Azrael can use the Gladius Strike Force, but an Imperial Fist army led by Tor Garadon is restricted from running the Sons of Sanguinius detachment.

 

I disagree. DAs can run a Sons of the Lion Detachment or a GSF. When the full Codex drops, a force led by Tor Garadon will be able to run either a GSF or a Sons of Dorn detachment so it works out fair.

 

I don't see any good reason for locking BAs, DAs and SWs out of the GSF.

[Captain Idaho]

Fingers crossed Ultramarines will get one as well, as being relegated to vanilla whilst everyone else gets extra is unfair and not fluffy to the real Ultramarines character. 

[Orange Knight]

3 minutes ago, Karhedron said:

 

I disagree. DAs can run a Sons of the Lion Detachment or a GSF. When the full Codex drops, a force led by Tor Garadon will be able to run either a GSF or a Sons of Dorn detachment so it works out fair.

 

I don't see any good reason for locking BAs, DAs and SWs out of the GSF.

 

There is no evidence at this time that a specific Imperial Fist or Raven Guard detachment will even exist. Something may well have rules that echo to those chapters once the codex drops.

 

Let me put it this way. Should you be able to run Guilliman in an Unforgiven Task Force or a Champions of Russ detachment?

 

Unless the codex chapters get unique detachments themed directly around them, Ultramarines included (even though the Gladius seems to be their detachment in spirit), then it would indeed be unfair.

[Captain Idaho]

GW themselves said that all Chapters can use the Gladius, didn't they?

[Blindhamster]

They've already said Gladius is available to all currently.

 

The real interesting thing will be when the DA codex comes out and we see how they actually plan to handle these chapters in 10th.

 

Gladius is likely to be generic and reprinted across books when the time comes (if the DA, BA, SW etc become full codex again rather than supplements).

 

I suspect what we'll eventually see is there are x core marine ones and either the divergent chapters will get those as well as they'll be supplements, or they will become distinct codex again with some content repritned. Probably resulting in x core marine ones and then divergent chapters having x detachments of their own, some of which may be the same as the core marine ones.

 

 

[Orange Knight]

Indeed, GW have stated that all chapters can use Gladius.

 

I'm simply saying that all chapters should have equal and fair access and/or limitation to the detachments and rules they can access, otherwise we will once again end up with the same state of affairs as 9th edition; Dark Angels had a win rate close to 60% in competitive play, whilst Imperial Fists were only winning 26% of their games.

 

Will the codex chapters have access to multiple detachments they can access, even if they take chapter specific units?

The divergent chapters are getting their own books, so we can assume they will have access to more than one detachment.

[Karhedron]

12 minutes ago, Orange Knight said:

Will the codex chapters have access to multiple detachments they can access, even if they take chapter specific units?

 

I would imagine that they would, otherwise the Codex would be a bit sparse. One I can see coming is some of Recon Company detachment that makes Phobos units Battleline.

[Blindhamster]

Yeah they already stated there will be multiple detachments in the codex when it arrives.

I suspect we will be able to tell what the plan is for divergent chapters based on the marine codex, even before DA one. If there's no rules for the divergent chapters in there, it's back to them being distinct books as and when they come out, and the divergent detachments are a stop-gap till then.

[Orange Knight]

We don't know how the full codex books will pan out so it's possible that everyone will get fair treatment. I'm simply not convinced this will be the case, and it might not be so at launch.

 

If Dante and the Blood Angels can be included in the Gladius Strike Force, then Tor Garadon and the Imperial Fists should also have access to the Sons of Sangunius detachment. Otherwise one has more options with their unique units at launch than the other.

 

The only fair way to do this would be to have a restriction on what epic hero and unique unit can use which detachment, but it has to go both ways.

[Medicinal Carrots]

Yep. The codex chapters need to have something the others don't have to avoid the Space Marines Plus issue. There has to be some reason to take codex marines instead of BA/DA/SW/BT/DE if they're intended to be a valid faction.

Edited June 7, 2023 by Medicinal Carrots

[Captain Idaho]

Wouldn't be the first time the "ordinary" Chapters were weaker than the big 3. Games Workshop doesn't view the game or balance in the same way as the wider community. 

[Blindhamster]

The detachments are one in, one out. Ergo you can’t mix and match which means the other armies aren’t inherently stronger.

 

for the most part the faction specific units aren’t typically straight up better these days either. Death company were worse than veteran intercessors last edition, chances are they will be this time too, or at best a side grade.

 

More options doesn’t necessarily equate to being better, it’s a fairly dumb assertion. The only thing that makes an army better is when they get all the core faction rules and then more on top. This was an issue back in 3rd Ed to some extent because (for example) blood angels got all the marine rules and then red thirst and black rage on top. Both rules were double edged but that doesn’t mean they weren’t powerful and they were in addition to the rules of core marines.

 

now if I want to play as blood angels and actually get my blood angels thematic rules, I lose the marine ones as all that stuff is tied to detachments.

 

yes I can play as blood angels with gladius, and I could use Dante, but Dante is still not as good as Calgar, and hasn’t been for basically all time, not to mention guilliman.  Yes I could take sanguinary guard, but chances are, if I am, I’m not taking vanguard or sternguard due to points. 
 

anyway, complaining about it won’t change the fact they already confirmed that for indexed, the divergent chapters can take gladius. Doing so will mean my blood angels won’t feel like blood angels due to a total lack of the red thirst. But im also a bigger fan of more narrative play and still believe red thirst should have replaced oath of moment.

I would hope GW adds detachments for each of the first founding chapters in the actual codex, that would be cool, I still think detachments for subfactions was a fail on GWs part 

[Orange Knight]

I think we'll have to agree to respectfully disagree.

 

The detachments are indeed one-in and one-out, but some factions don't have equal access to the same numbers of detachments.

If you're a Blood Angel or Dark Angel player, not only do you have access to a lot more model support, but now you gain access to more detachment and rule variation on top.

 

Perhaps Dante isn't as strong as Calgar, or maybe he's better in the new edition?  What about the Lion - the most durable and dangerous close combat unit in the game by a significant margin, from what has been revealed so far? Why does a player running the Lion and the Dark Angels get to chose from more detachment options, more upgrades, more stratagems, etc etc? 

 

But you can't tell me that having more options is a bad thing, and that I should be happy about having less to chose from. Where are the players demanding they lose access to detachments and rules?

 

All I see is "Rules for me, but not for you"

[Blindhamster]

I didn't say more options was a bad thing, I said it isn't "better" assuming we're talking "more powerful". I'm saying raging about something that functionally probably means very little, is a touch silly. The divergent chapters have always had distinct rules, they continue to do so, they absolutely could have limited gladius to be core marines only, but then they'd need to make an ultramarine specific detachment instead, otherwsie ultramarines would be the marines +1. Ultimately, if you don't care about the subfaction character (in the case of anyone that isn't one of the divergent or an ultramarine), you can indeed use any detachment you like. If you want to be an ultramarine, you need to use gladius. If you do care about Tor Garradon, you need to use Gladius.

But, assuming you're an ultramarine player - you're hardly hard done by.

 

I will agree that the other first founding chapters (and crimson fists) do get the short end, and always have. But Ultramarines are pretty much always fine (having as many, or more characters than most divergent chapters even), and they have Guilliman, who is at least as good as the Lion for 10th.

 

Anyway, like it or not, GW outright said divergent chapters get the gladius strike force. It's highly likely that if you want to lean into chapter unique units, the stratagem support for them will be in the divergent chapter detachments, you'll also likely find many will use their unique detachment because it's the only way to feel like their actual faction did.
 

From what's been shown so far, Gladius looks to be one of the better marine detachments regardless, so that's a positive I guess?

 

I can totally get the feeling of "hey I want a special detachment for x subfaction", and I hope that's a thing they do with the codex (though again, I'd have personally preferred the divergent chapters weren't part of the codex with this new system, funny as I was a big advocate for the supplement structure before, to me ideally blood angels would have had red thirst (possibly improved slightly from what we're getting) as a faction ability in place of OoM, and then detachments to represent different companies or army styles).

 

so yeah...

• divergent chapters get Gladius, was already confirmed, we don't 100% know if they can do so an use all the unique units/characters, but it's likely. It would come at the cost of unique strats and artefacts though
• any chapter can use any detachment if they don't care about (or dont have) unique units or characters
• they seem to be trying to move away from the rules being tied so strongly to the faction (sadly, IMO), so if you want an imperial fist or ultramarine assault company, go crazy and use black templars (or blood angels) to represent them, it comes at the cost of using ultramarine characters or fist characters, but for the most part, that makes sense as none of those characters were captains of the assault companies anyway.
• everything we're getting in the index' are subject to change when the actual codex' drop. Till then, its basically just "get you by" rules.

p.s. again, I'd be more than happy to not use the space marine faction rule or detachment and have an actual distinct faction rule, I imagine there are plenty of players of the divergent chapters that similarly would more than happily not have access to gladius and OoM and instead get something more unique to their chapter of choice. But it's not what we've been given.

 

[Orange Knight]

Imperial Fists for me, I'm afraid. I had a pretty rotten time in 9th edition.

 

Ironically I play Ultramarines in the Horus Heresy, and in that game the Imperial Fists are the most powerful and most supported Legion, but again that isn't something I particularly want.

 

I think that if GW choses to support these sub factions and to make distinctions between them, they have to do so more fairly. No other faction seems to have this issue - take a look at the new Eldrad datasheet - he doesn't even have a specific craftworld keyword, thus allowing players to pick and chose the various Epic Heroes in the Eldar range without any limitation or restriction.

[Tokugawa]

DON'T analogy marine with other factions.

 

Marine can be exeption.

 

When the sales of "subfaction" like BA is more than sales of many "faction"s, GW want to give them diversity and uniqueness, even more eagerly than you and me. 

[Captain Idaho]

I'd disagree with the statement "Ultramarines are fine because they have special characters" (paraphrased for brevity) as it makes assumption that all Ultramarines players use special characters and also makes the assumption that using said special characters is fine as a bandaid to flavourful unique rules.

 

An example for Blood Angels - imagine you had no Death Company (who were head and shoulders above Veteran Intercessors by the way and and not a like for like comparison anyway - I suspect you didn’t mean the Firstborn unit which was solid), no Baal Predators and no Sanguinary Guard etc. Only special characters and your rules.

 

Now imagine you lost those rules and only had the special characters. 

 

Would that create ill feeling amongst Blood Angels fans or do you think they'd be fine with it?

 

This is the same situation as Ultramarines are in. No rules, special characters as a crutch for flavour. Same as all the First Founding outside the big 3.

 

We need a Detachment beyond the Gladius for each Chapter or else it just becomes rather bland and like the 4th Codex Chaos fiasco all over again.

[Blindhamster]

honestly, Gladius is pretty blatantly the ultramarine detachment, in that its the "codex astartes" detachment.

I don't mean that in a negative or derogatory way, I just mean that it just vibes really strongly as ultramarine flexibility in how its put together.

 

trouble is, they clearly didn't want to make one for each first founding (at least for the index), probably because they weren't doing that for other armies either and you'd have had storm warden, blood raven, executioner or whatever else chapter then saying "where is mine" instead.

 

So they went with a generic one, and it'll do a great job for basically all marines (again, honestly it seems like it's better than most of the divergent chapter detachments anyway right now, obvious exception being templars which is straight up better because its basically pick a powerful ability, it's always on, all the time, with no caveats).

 

But yes, I hope they do a bunch more detachments to help allow players more individuality in their list building, that will be cool! I honestly expect the status quo to end up being:

• edition starts with what we've already seen
• codex for marines drops and codex chapters get all the detachments from the codex
  • divergent chapters get gladius (from index) and their divergent detachment till they get a codex
• dark angel codex drops and we see them become a distinct faciton, probably having gladius or something very similar in the book, plus distinct detachments for various flavours of DA
• other divergent chapters each become a distinct faction again and don't use anything direct from the codex

That's my bet for the edition.

 

As for me, as a long long long time blood angel player?

• I've never used more than one unit of sanguinary guard
• I've actually not used death company much at all in my lists, I used to run a unit when they were mandatory (3rd edition) and continued to do so in some lists from 4th to 7th, but again never more than one unit
• I've not got a single death company unit since 8th
• I've owned but never used the librarian dread as I hated how it looked
• I've regularly used the baal predator, but since the gladiator came out, it was overshadowed anyway
• I've always loved close combat dreads, but contemptors were better than furiosos for most editions, and the brutalis seems to be better too.
• I've rarely used characters in my games outside of Tycho (the least blood angel-y playstyle wise lol), I used Dante from time to time and Mephiston also from time to time, I've used none of them since 8th dropped though.
• To me, the important thing for blood angels is and always has been a rule to represent the thirst, and a rule to represent the rage. The latter has basically not been a thing outside of a strat in 8th/9th since 3rd ed. With the lore as is it, not all chapters have the level of distinctness inherent in their lore, IMO Dark Angels aren't really different to other marines outside of unique units. Wolves and Blood Angels however are due to their curses, and that's what I want to see portrayed on the tabletop.
• i.e. for me, I play my blood angels closer to the lore, primarily as a codex force with some elements in place due to the thirst, this is unlikely to change, and despite this I'll also likely use the blood angels detachment even with gladius being better for me.

 

but anyway, I do think it'd be good for GW to do something cool for the first founding chapters, I have a feeling the codex will do that, but I suspect that (unlike the divergent chapter ones) these will not be chapter locked, there'll be:

• 1st company detachment
• 10th company detachment
• gladius detachment (i.e. regular battlecompany detachment)
• some kinda devastator company/ siege detachment (hey imperial fists)
• some kinda infiltration detachment, maybe this and the 10th company one will be one and the same (hey raven guard)
• some kinda bike detachment (scars/possibly assault company)

Not sure what they'd do for salamanders or iron hands, but I'm sure they'll do something that can cover them nicely.

 

 

as far as supporting all subfactions of marines equally, it won't happen, because honestly they aren't and can't be equal now. 40k has had many of the divergent chapters as totally separate factions for the vast majority of its existence, back in 4th, if they hadn't gone that route, then sure, maybe it'd happen but now there's just too much history and already too much focus on marines as is, they COULD cut back the support for divergent chapters, but it doesn't look like they will, in part because as was said above, even the divergent chapters outsell entire factions on their own. We could look to HH and say "but they did it there" and it's kinda true, but that's also a game that is almost entirely just marines, and many of those marine factions aren't equally supported (not even close - even after far longer edition cycle than 40k)

 

p.s. I was indeed comparing DC intercessors to veteran intercessors, the veterans are better in 9th. Normal DC are very good, but Vanguard are better generally.

Edited June 7, 2023 by Blindhamster

[Medicinal Carrots]

More unit options is better if everything else is the same. If for nothing else than it allows you to take more of certains types of units. Want elite jet packed melee units? You could play Marines and take 3 units of Vanguard, or you could play Marines Plus and take 3 units of Vanguard AND 3 units of Sanguinary Guard.

 

I don't think they necessarily have to be on fully equal footing, but there has to be something the codex chapters have of their own that justifies their existence mechanically.

[Blindhamster]

Think I’m done for the moment, we have different opinions, and honestly I think none of them will matter long term, I think if you’re a snowflake chapter, you’ll get a codex of your own again, possibly even returning to the days of limited or no access to certain things (doubtful on the latter). I think the vast majority of marine chapters literally won’t exist in the rules outside of possibly their characters this edition, as others noted, GW look like they are toning down on subfactions now - which is also part of why I think the divergent chapters will become full factions again