Gladius Detachment Rules

[Arkangilos]

3 hours ago, Captain Idaho said:

I'd disagree with the statement "Ultramarines are fine because they have special characters" (paraphrased for brevity) as it makes assumption that all Ultramarines players use special characters and also makes the assumption that using said special characters is fine as a bandaid to flavourful unique rules.

If they don’t use special characters the point is moot anyways, because special characters are what stops them from using any other detachment.

[Captain Idaho]

The point is even more astute I'd say. Without Special Characters, there is literally nothing that differentiates Ultramarines from anyone else using the appropriate Detachments.

 

That's the crux of the problem really and something we spoke about in editions past. Seems we've gone back that.

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

1 hour ago, Captain Idaho said:

The point is even more astute I'd say. Without Special Characters, there is literally nothing that differentiates Ultramarines from anyone else using the appropriate Detachments.

 

That's the crux of the problem really and something we spoke about in editions past. Seems we've gone back that.

Except you know unique units…

[Captain Idaho]

And which unique units do Imperial Fists, White Scars, Iron Hands etc all have?

 

And after the Legends thing... do we really think the original Honour Guard and Tyrannic War Veterans aren't going to Legends for Ultramarines?

[Sea Creature]

Wasn’t there Gladius in seventh edition and it was available to every chapter…

[Blindhamster]

27 minutes ago, Sea Creature said:

Wasn’t there Gladius in seventh edition and it was available to every chapter…

wasn't available to blood angels.

Blood angels got a worse version of it about 6 months before the end of the edition, till then they were the only chapter without a demi-company formation option that gave free transports and other bonuses (I'm not bitter about that at all lol)

[Orange Knight]

The way GW should limit these detachments fairly is to lock the Gladius Strike Force away from any army using any of the unique units belonging to the Blood Angels, Dark Angels, Space Wolves, Deathwatch and Black Templars.

 

And the same should apply in reverse. The limitations should be fair to all.

 

Otherwise one set of players that already receives preferential model support gets to have their cake and eat it too.

 

I would like to add that I don't particularly want to take any options away from anyone. The other alternative is to grant access to the unique detachments of the divergent chapters to the compliant codex chapters, even if they include the few unique units available to them.

Edited June 8, 2023 by Orange Knight

[spessmarine]

3 hours ago, Captain Idaho said:

And which unique units do Imperial Fists, White Scars, Iron Hands etc all have?

 

And after the Legends thing... do we really think the original Honour Guard and Tyrannic War Veterans aren't going to Legends for Ultramarines?

 

Not like it'd be much work, "no models, no rules" getting in the way. Alternatively, FW did the legwork of adding fitting units for the other main chapters the only awkward one is WS due to the jetbike matter.

[Arkangilos]

7 hours ago, Captain Idaho said:

And which unique units do Imperial Fists, White Scars, Iron Hands etc all have?

What special units do they have in the lore?

 

BA, SW, and BT have always had special units. For BA: We have "always" had special honor guard (though in various iterations), fast vehicles, special dreadnaughts (just one in third), death company, special assault squads (different iterations), and we used to have special scouts (3rd Edition had our scouts not being recruits but the most fiery of the BA).

 

Like yeah, it sucks the IF doesn't have special units, but that is literally the whole point behind the Codex Compliance. Codex Compliant chapters literally deliberately handicapped themselves. Should they have special rules? Yeah. Heck, I'd give them more access to storm shields or something to fit their "wall" and "siege" warfare preference. 

 

But it makes sense that codex chapters are going to have codex chapter units and codex chapter tactics. They aren't going to have non-codex units because they are codex. The other chapters are deliberately NON codex so they will have non codex units.

[Arkangilos]

5 hours ago, Orange Knight said:

The way GW should limit these detachments fairly is to lock the Gladius Strike Force away from any army using any of the unique units belonging to the Blood Angels, Dark Angels, Space Wolves, Deathwatch and Black Templars.

 

And the same should apply in reverse. The limitations should be fair to all.

 

Otherwise one set of players that already receives preferential model support gets to have their cake and eat it too.

 

I would like to add that I don't particularly want to take any options away from anyone. The other alternative is to grant access to the unique detachments of the divergent chapters to the compliant codex chapters, even if they include the few unique units available to them.

I don't think the non-codex chapters should have access to the Codex Detachment. If we do, then the Red Thirst (or Sons of X) rules should replace OoM. (Personally the latter makes more sense to me).

 

Honestly I would have done it like this for the BA:

 

"Faction: Sons of Sanguinius

Detachment: Fury of the Angel"

 

The successors could then be something like this
"Faction: Sons of Sanguinius (Red Thirst)

Detachment: Tearers of Amit"

 

"Detachment: Drinkers of Blood"

 

Etc.

 

"Faction: Space Marine

Detachment: Gladius"

 

Detachment: The Unbreaking Wall

 

Detachment: From the Shadow

 

Or whatever.

 

Whoops, can this be merged with the above?

Edited June 8, 2023 by Arkangilos

[Captain Idaho]

The argument for unique units being the reason doesn't really hold much water. Deathwing are just Terminators, Ravenwing just bikers. Dark Angels are pretty Codex Adherent.

 

Ironically, Black Templars are Codex divergent yet as far as unique, non-characters models go, they have less than Ultramarines. 

 

A Crusader squad is unique. Needs a combination of 2 units to work. But Sword Brethren can just be represented by existing Elites units.

 

Ultramarines Tyrannic War Veterans, Honour Guard and Victrix Guard are all unique units so the arguments for Black Templars having their own rules on the basis of unique units is the same argument Ultramarines can have their own Codex.

 

If it's "Codex Compliant" then the Dark Angels are certainly more Codex organised than Salamanders and White Scars, with their modus operandi more Codex Compliant than Raven Guard.

 

Those arguments are old from editions past and never really held up to scrutiny I'm afraid.

 

On that basis I'd really like to see Chapter specific Detachments for all the Chapters we know and love, including Ultramarines. With how great GW told us the Detachment system is, there's no reason they can't do this.

Edited June 8, 2023 by Captain Idaho

[Arkangilos]

35 minutes ago, Captain Idaho said:

The argument for unique units being the reason doesn't really hold much water. Deathwing are just Terminators, Ravenwing just bikers. Dark Angels are pretty Codex Adherent.

Nobody said unique units are the reason. You said, " Without Special Characters, there is literally nothing that differentiates Ultramarines from anyone else using the appropriate Detachments." We replied by saying unique units are another thing that differentiates them. 

There are four things that make a chapter unique: Geneseed, Organization, Characters, and Units. 

I'm not well versed in DA lore, which is why I never used them as an example. However, it is my understanding that their Death Wing aren't equipped the same way as standard terminators. And no, the DA aren't Codex Adherent. They literally deploy their second company entirely differently than the Codex allows. Because they have different options (like the BA do), they get different unit cards. 

 

It has always been that the BA, DA, and SW have had their own unique stuff specifically because they aren't Codex Compliant. They have different wargear options, different units, different formations, etc. You cannot say that isn't the case anymore because... well.. it still is. 

34 minutes ago, Captain Idaho said:

On that basis I'd really like to see Chapter specific Detachments for all the Chapters we know and love, including Ultramarines. With how great GW told us the Detachment system is, there's no reason they can't do this.

Agreed, hence you can see in my post that I suggested just that.

Edited June 8, 2023 by Arkangilos

[Captain Idaho]

Well we have come to some consensus anyway.

 

No worries mate.

[Orange Knight]

I'm surprised there was any disagreement with the idea that the rules should be fairly distributed and balanced across all the chapters. My position is one where the same limitations or lack there-of need to be applied in the same way to everyone, no matter what paint scheme you may have chosen.

 

On the topic of special characters and units - they do indeed offer a perk for some ahead of others. There is no way to deny or get around this fact, but it's not a big issue by itself. Perhaps a chapter with access to superior units and characters could be assigned less favourable detachment bonuses or stratagems, in order to mitigate their advantage. Or they might have to abide by a more limited and strict army composition limitation. Or perhaps no restrictions exist at all, in which case everyone is on a more equal field.

 

If GW aren't going to balance and restrict all these sub factions in a fair and equal way, then they should simply get rid of them in the same way as they appear to have done with the Eldar.

 

Ultimately, if you are a hobbyist who values the lore and theme then your position should also be the same. How can you defend a detachment in which the Lion, or Gabrial Seth, or Logan Grimnar abandoned their own fighting style in order to mimic the Ultramarine method of warfare, when alternatives that suit them better exist?

 

Unless of course you simply want to have access to stronger or more diverse combinations of rules which are denied to others?

Edited June 8, 2023 by Orange Knight

[Blindhamster]

Again, will probably end up learning more soon, as it stands we are just going in circles on this at this point.

 

most divergent chapter players aren’t arguing that they should have access to gladius (though there’s. Good lore reason why many of them should), most divergent chapter players are probably just going to use their specific detachment I imagine, what was being said is “it’s done, they’ve already said how it works”.

 

but to reiterate, it’s index season, we know this all changes as codex start to drop 

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

13 hours ago, Orange Knight said:

The way GW should limit these detachments fairly is to lock the Gladius Strike Force away from any army using any of the unique units belonging to the Blood Angels, Dark Angels, Space Wolves, Deathwatch and Black Templars.

 

And the same should apply in reverse. The limitations should be fair to all.

 

Otherwise one set of players that already receives preferential model support gets to have their cake and eat it too.

 

I would like to add that I don't particularly want to take any options away from anyone. The other alternative is to grant access to the unique detachments of the divergent chapters to the compliant codex chapters, even if they include the few unique units available to them.

Might not be fair, but is it fair to take options away from those who have them?

 

as it’s been pointed out more options doesn’t equate to better.

 

[Orange Knight]

@Inquisitor_Lensoven

 

I don't want anything to be taken away. I'm suggesting that we should all have the same restrictions OR the same freedoms when it comes to the detachment rules.

[Tokugawa]

The limit seems loose, just "no two different chapter keywords in army", having 1 or 0 is both ok. 

[Karhedron]

44 minutes ago, Orange Knight said:

I don't want anything to be taken away. I'm suggesting that we should all have the same restrictions OR the same freedoms when it comes to the detachment rules.

 

What you are not taking into account though is time. This is just a temporary phase. We know the Marines Codex will be out soon after the Nids one and then codex-compliant Chapters will get a host of Detachments to play about with. Or would you argue that once a "Sons of Dorn" detachment is available, Imperial Fist players should no longer be allowed access to the GSF?

 

I understand what you are saying but I do not agree with your premise because it does not acknowledge the time-limited nature of the current situation. Codex Dark Angels is nearly a year away and there is no date yet for Blood Angels and Space Wolves. Divergent Chapters will have to live with just having 2 formations for a lot longer than Codex Chapters will have to live with just having one.

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

5 hours ago, Orange Knight said:

@Inquisitor_Lensoven

 

I don't want anything to be taken away. I'm suggesting that we should all have the same restrictions OR the same freedoms when it comes to the detachment rules.

By saying deviant chapters can’t use all their units in gladius you’re taking things away from them.

gladius is the generic marine detachment, it’s not the ultramarine detachment so why would it restrict anyone in anyway?

[Medicinal Carrots]

57 minutes ago, Inquisitor_Lensoven said:

By saying deviant chapters can’t use all their units in gladius you’re taking things away from them.

gladius is the generic marine detachment, it’s not the ultramarine detachment so why would it restrict anyone in anyway?

It's the generic marine detachment, so it should be best for the generic marine chapters the same way the non-codex detachments are best for the the non-codex chapters. That way, each flavor of marines gets 1 detachment where they can take all of their chapter specific stuff, and multiple detachments where they they can take the non-specific stuff. Otherwise, BA/DA/SW/BT/DW each get 2 detachments where they can take everything, and codex chapters only get 1.

[Tokugawa]

Codex chapters will soon get ~5 as new codex will be released around August.

[spessmarine]

18 hours ago, Captain Idaho said:

The argument for unique units being the reason doesn't really hold much water. Deathwing are just Terminators, Ravenwing just bikers. Dark Angels are pretty Codex Adherent.

 

Ironically, Black Templars are Codex divergent yet as far as unique, non-characters models go, they have less than Ultramarines. 

 

A Crusader squad is unique. Needs a combination of 2 units to work. But Sword Brethren can just be represented by existing Elites units.

 

Ultramarines Tyrannic War Veterans, Honour Guard and Victrix Guard are all unique units so the arguments for Black Templars having their own rules on the basis of unique units

 

There isn't any reason why each chapter wouldn't have some theming/flavouring of certain units. Be it honour guard or flame specialists.

 

On 6/7/2023 at 3:37 AM, Captain Idaho said:

Fingers crossed Ultramarines will get one as well, as being relegated to vanilla whilst everyone else gets extra is unfair and not fluffy to the real Ultramarines character. 

 

To be fair... If any chapter ought to get relegated to vanilla, who better?

Edited June 9, 2023 by spessmarine

[Tacitus]

19 hours ago, Captain Idaho said:

The argument for unique units being the reason doesn't really hold much water. Deathwing are just Terminators, Ravenwing just bikers. Dark Angels are pretty Codex Adherent.

 

Ironically, Black Templars are Codex divergent yet as far as unique, non-characters models go, they have less than Ultramarines. 

 

A Crusader squad is unique. Needs a combination of 2 units to work. But Sword Brethren can just be represented by existing Elites units.

 

Ultramarines Tyrannic War Veterans, Honour Guard and Victrix Guard are all unique units so the arguments for Black Templars having their own rules on the basis of unique units is the same argument Ultramarines can have their own Codex.

 

If it's "Codex Compliant" then the Dark Angels are certainly more Codex organised than Salamanders and White Scars, with their modus operandi more Codex Compliant than Raven Guard.

 

Those arguments are old from editions past and never really held up to scrutiny I'm afraid.

 

On that basis I'd really like to see Chapter specific Detachments for all the Chapters we know and love, including Ultramarines. With how great GW told us the Detachment system is, there's no reason they can't do this.

I'll disagree with that - Deathwing are Terminators+.  Not only do you get the codex data sheet, you get an additional datasheet or three of another Terminator option (Terminators, Command Squad, Knights) plus (at least in the past) special rules for Terminators in their Chapter/Company rules.  Same with the Ravenwing and their Knights and speeders. 

 

Black Templars have fewer unique SC's because their codex divergences are built into their chapter.  Ultramarines as THE Codex Chapter have to build their divergences (which we might as well call unique/flavor/etc) into their units:  Tyrannic War Vets, Telion, Chronus(and Spear of Macragge all tank armies), and so on. 

 

And yeah UM should get a UM only Det.  I'd like to see a return of the "Tyrannic War Vet: Throw a Grenade down their throat" monster fighting tactic, and building a Det around that.  Between the Battle for Macragge, and the recent Nugle invasion UM have a lot of recent experience fighting monsters. 

[Captain Idaho]

To be clear, I wasn't saying Deathwing don't deserve their own data sheet etc, I was expressing in that context a comparison with Chapters who don't have their own special units to a settle for generic "count as" units - Terminator squads can count as Morlocks (do the Iron Hands have them still? Maybe scratch that one) or the Ultramarines 1st Company (historically very storied and tenacious to the end) etc etc

 

Same goes for White Scars bikers - why don't they exist but Ravenwing do?

 

The point I was trying to make perhaps clumsily, is unique units shouldn't be exclusive to the big 3 First Founding and Black Templars, but many Chapters.

 

In the absence of unique units though, Chapter specific rules cover that. So I think many of us agree with that anyway, so it's all good.