Apothecaries and Ancients

[Valerian]

Just wanted to throw this out there, especially since this subforum has been so quiet lately.  I expect Apothecaries and Ancients will lose their Character status in 10e.  I'm pretty confident that they're going back to being Paladin Squad upgrades, just as they were a few editions ago.  We ought to know for sure next Monday, when the rest of the dataslates are released for Space Marines, which will hopefully include the Grey Knights.

 

 

[WAR]

I could see that or/and  that we get a Command Squad option.

[Brother Lunkhead]

8 hours ago, WAR said:

I could see that or/and  that we get a Command Squad option.

Command Squad option would be nice. It would be even nicer if along with that 10ed. makes Command Squads worth taking... I miss using that unit

 

9 hours ago, Valerian said:

Just wanted to throw this out there, especially since this subforum has been so quiet lately.  I expect Apothecaries and Ancients will lose their Character status in 10e.  I'm pretty confident that they're going back to being Paladin Squad upgrades, just as they were a few editions ago.  We ought to know for sure next Monday, when the rest of the dataslates are released for Space Marines, which will hopefully include the Grey Knights.

Interesting take, and you might be right... What brings you to this conclusion? I'd like to see your thoughts

 

I'm going to make a stretch in the opposite direction and say that not only will the Apothecary maintain his character status but will be upgraded to the ranks of command. Of course, I'm basing this speculation on the thinnest of evidence... the data sheet of the Apothecary Biologis This new apothecary still carries the Character keyword and has the core ability of Leader. So, why not extend that to all apothecaries?... And while we're at it, let's extend that to the Ancients as well, if for no other reason than the Ancient should have always been much more than a flag waving cheerleader

 

As in all things speculative, I reserve the right to be wrong

Edited June 8, 2023 by Brother Lunkhead

[Holier Than Thou]

I think Valerian is right, I see the Apothecaries becoming part of the Paladin Squad and most likely the Ancient too. They are built from the same box so it feels like the path GW are taking at the moment.

[Valerian]

12 hours ago, Brother Lunkhead said:

 

Interesting take, and you might be right... What brings you to this conclusion? I'd like to see your thoughts

 

A couple reasons:

 

1). First, all/most of the Leader datasheets that we've seen so far indicate that they're limiting the units types that Characters can join to ones with the same Armor type.  Gravis to Gravis, Terminator to Terminator, Phobos to Phobos, and Tacticus to Tacticus. 

 

The other limitation that we know about is that, with a few exceptions (Space Marine Captains and Lieutenants) only one Character can attach to a given unit, and Grey Knights we have too many Characters in Terminator Armor.  If Apothecaries and Ancients became Characters that get the Leader Ability, they would be competing with Grand Masters, Brother-Captains, Chaplains, and Librarians (not to mention our named Epic Heroes Voldus and Draigo) for a Terminator or Paladin Squad to join.  There simply wouldn't ever be room for them, and nobody would take them. 

 

2).  Second, take a look at the Dark Angels.  In 9e, their Ancients, Champions, and Apothecaries were all Independent Characters, but we recently saw the Deathwing Command Squad datasheet, and all three of those were wrapped back into that unit (like they used to be).  Since this unit is very similar to our Paladin Squad, I expect they will have gone in the exact same direction for us.

 

 

[Brother Lunkhead]

True, they are built from the same box However, it's an old kit and there is no sign from GW of an upgrade in basic GK models anytime soon (although I'm sure there will eventually be one). Do you have any information, no matter how tenuous (tenuous... like mine) that points to your conclusion? If there is any change to apothecary rules for general Space Marines, it's more likely than not that GK rules for apothecaries will parallel those, at least to some degree. Of course, the rules for the Apothecary Biologis might just be specific to that model... Time will tell

[WAR]

One of the reasons I feel that they would allow Gks Apothecaries and Ancients to be Characters is so we are different then Adeptus Astartes. GW is has been nudging Grey Knights in that direction for a little bit. 

[Valerian]

Regarding the Apothecary Biologis, I don’t think that’ll be a model for how they’re going to treat standard Apothecaries.  Going back to armor types, there are multiple types of units in Gravis Armor (Aggressors, Heavy Intercessors, Eradicators) but if memory serves, only one Character in Gravis (the Captain).  In this case, the Biologis fills a niche that, until now, was only filled by a single other option.  
 

So, it makes sense for the Biologis to be a Leader Character.  And they aren’t a part of the kit for another unit, while our Apothecaries and Ancients are. 

[WAR]

 

Very good point which will suck for me since I have 3 Apothecaries, but I also have 4 Librarians too, so there is that. 

[Brother Lunkhead]

2 hours ago, WAR said:

One of the reasons I feel that they would allow Gks Apothecaries and Ancients to be Characters is so we are different then Adeptus Astartes. GW is has been nudging Grey Knights in that direction for a little bit. 

Yup

 

2 hours ago, Valerian said:

Regarding the Apothecary Biologis, I don’t think that’ll be a model for how they’re going to treat standard Apothecaries.  Going back to armor types, there are multiple types of units in Gravis Armor (Aggressors, Heavy Intercessors, Eradicators) but if memory serves, only one Character in Gravis (the Captain).  In this case, the Biologis fills a niche that, until now, was only filled by a single other option.  
 

So, it makes sense for the Biologis to be a Leader Character.  And they aren’t a part of the kit for another unit, while our Apothecaries and Ancients are. 

A reasonable point, but it's the only hard data we have, and it is still an unnamed character type... like the generic Apothecary.

 

Also, in terms of business models, the GK Paladin/Terminator kit is as old as Methuselah, so I don't think that's relevant at this point. GK is still and probably will always remain a niche army, so it's unlikely we will see individual Apothecary or Ancient models, or even as part of a separate command squad. Unfortunately, we will never get the kind of love that standard OG/Primaris SM's get.

 

2 hours ago, Valerian said:

 

A couple reasons:

 

1). First, all/most of the Leader datasheets that we've seen so far indicate that they're limiting the units types that Characters can join to ones with the same Armor type.  Gravis to Gravis, Terminator to Terminator, Phobos to Phobos, and Tacticus to Tacticus. 

 

The other limitation that we know about is that, with a few exceptions (Space Marine Captains and Lieutenants) only one Character can attach to a given unit, and Grey Knights we have too many Characters in Terminator Armor.  If Apothecaries and Ancients became Characters that get the Leader Ability, they would be competing with Grand Masters, Brother-Captains, Chaplains, and Librarians (not to mention our named Epic Heroes Voldus and Draigo) for a Terminator or Paladin Squad to join.  There simply wouldn't ever be room for them, and nobody would take them. 

 

2).  Second, take a look at the Dark Angels.  In 9e, their Ancients, Champions, and Apothecaries were all Independent Characters, but we recently saw the Deathwing Command Squad datasheet, and all three of those were wrapped back into that unit (like they used to be).  Since this unit is very similar to our Paladin Squad, I expect they will have gone in the exact same direction for us.

 

 

Addressing point 1, using the Biologis example, he can be added to a unit with another command figure. As for the armor type, even the Biologis is limited to being added to specific units, but still.... Leader...

 

As for having too many terminator characters, terminator armor commonality is our niche so that fits fine. I don't think we have near enough characters as is... Look at the Necrons, they have more characters than you could use in an Apocalypse game Also, there are plenty of examples of characters that are underused, because they don't add enough, but they still exist to be used.

 

Concerning your DA example, that may well happen, and that works for me too but that's 9ed. not 10ed. sooo.... we'll find out for sure soonish

[Valerian]

The DA example is from their 10e datasheet reveal.  In 9e, they were all separate Independent Characters.  The fact that they’re not going to be in 10th is one of several reasons why I think we’ll be doing the same. 

Edited June 8, 2023 by Valerian

[Brother Lunkhead]

2 hours ago, Valerian said:

The DA example is from their 10e datasheet reveal.  In 9e, they were all separate Independent Characters.  The fact that they’re not going to be in 10th is one of several reasons why I think we’ll be doing the same. 

I stand corrected on that point. After taking a deep dive into all the sample Space Marine data sheets, I think we are at a standoff on our points. The speculation here was all a bit of fun, but to be honest, what little info we have just leads me to believe that when it comes to the GK Apothecary and Ancient, it will all remain status quo. Once upon a time the command squad was a viable unit to take for Space Marines, but not for some time. This may change for the DAs, but I suspect not for the GKs. Now, the new rules concerning Deep Strike and Teleport Assault look tasty and I'll be very interested to see how well those work,... but that's a discussion for another thread

[WAR]

So with the Primaris Apothecary and Ancients data cards for the Astartes, it gives us hope that we remain characters but we shall see since Command Squad Ancient and Apothecary are a thing too....

 

[Valerian]

3 hours ago, WAR said:

So with the Primaris Apothecary and Ancients data cards for the Astartes, it gives us hope that we remain characters but we shall see since Command Squad Ancient and Apothecary are a thing too....

 

 

Exactly.  Only issue with them remaining Characters is that the Primaris and Terminator ones that remained Characters from the Space Marines datasheets are limited to only joining Squads with one other Character, and it has to be a Captain, Chapter Master, or Lieutenant.  So, again, if we follow suit, things will get real weird for our Chaplains and Librarians, especially, and no Apothecary and Ancient in the same Squad.

 

I definitely might have guessed incorrectly, but I hope that I haven't, so I can continue to stack a Grand Master, Apothecary and Ancient in one Squad and a Librarian and Apothecary in the other Squad.

[Captain Coolpants]

So the new data card leaks just have a brotherhood terminator squad with narthecium option. Not an apothecary. To return 1 dead non character unit back. 

[WAR]

plus ancient listed on it 

 

[Valerian]

Yep, looks like I was right.  No more separate characters, but unit upgrades. 
 

They're in the regular Terminator Squad, which I had not guessed, but still close enough.  And I don’t think that leak showed the Paladin Squad, so I’d expect they’d be upgrade options for those, too. 

[WAR]

Yes you were.

[Cleon]

It'll be interesting to see what they charge for the squad medic - how many command phases are you likely to get where a model is dead but the squad is alive? When you go first it can't happen turn 1. If things work out perfectly for him you could revive a squads worth, but other games he'll do nothing or maybe only pick up one guy.

[Brother Lunkhead]

Good call Brother Valerian....

 

But I'm sad at the change