Those that lost out aka- the "losers" of the SM 10th index

[Lord_Ikka]

What are everyone's thoughts on the units that received some knockbacks or seem less than useful from the 10th ed index? Not all options are going to be great, but what do you think got hit especially hard with the new rules, game mechanics, or stats? Also, do you see any way to make said unit useful or better?

 

Personally, I'm going to have a rough time with anti-tank, as my main units to do that for my Primaris army were two sets of Eradicators. Currently, they are only getting one shot each with their melta rifles, at shorter range than 9th, with less strength due to the increase in vehicle toughness. The to Hit bonus for being stationary and the melta extra damage are alright, but with the reduction in range they are a side-grade at best. I like all the re-rolls you get for attacking a Monster/Vehicle, but I think the downsides for them make it much harder to justify using Eradicators than something like a Predator. As for what can help them, I can see an edge use for a Gravis Captain allowing them to use Adaptative Strat to make them stay in Devastator Doctrine to Advance/Shoot for 0CP, but that seems kind of like a waste of a Captain. Best option I can think of is the Apothecary Biologis giving them Lethal Hits and trying to fish for 6s with their re-rolls against vehicles. Not the greatest option, but possibly good if you have luck with you on the dice rolls. 

 

What are your units that are seemingly lackluster or not feeling the love?

[Captain Idaho]

To be honest, everything I normally take is pretty good. Or better, in the case of Predators, Whirlwinds, soon to be Vindicators etc.

 

Losing a 5 man Tactical Squad is annoying a little but that's ok.

 

My Bike Captain is probably the biggest loser as he's good fun and I love the paint and conversion work on him but can't use Vengeance of Ultramar anymore and is otherwise stuck with a Bike Squad I haven't actually got.

 

Sternguard being unable to roll with Firstborn characters outside specials or in a Rhino is annoying but I suppose a Drop Pod is viable.

[Bouargh]

I would say that for the moment I am quite satisfied. I have enough model to compensate some internal army balance changes and more or less it will not be too hard to adjust. I see good stuff such as a kind of tentative to get units count as or interacting FirstBorn/Primaris.

 

Yet I feel like 3 units I especially used in my army compositions may have suffered in some extent:

- the Tactical squad has been hit - as well as all the units that previously could have been split in combat squad. This combined with the unit size set at 10 is a little bit of an issue I would say. But not too dramatic either. 

- Landspeeder that cannot be fielded as units of 3 anymore - makes them less relevant to me. But if DA keep this capacity, well it might be a way to compensate using a different detachment. Yet, I doubt it will be the case. Getting deepstrike is a nice stuff however. Getting more special rules for typhoon and tornado is... odd

- Razorback is badly hit because of tactical size being at 10. it becomes a transport option more difficult to field as basically limited to small assault squad, vanguard squad and devastators + command. interestingly enough it can apparently become an option for putting scouts in it ... even if it is a little bit of a curious idea.

 

Yet I would not really say that tis makes them loosers. Just that some adjustments in my gaming style may be needed. 

 

PS I field omly firstborn

 

Edited June 11, 2023 by Bouargh
added 3rd in the list

[Blindhamster]

whilst being forced to squad size of 10 for tacticals sucks, IMO they're probably the best battleline unit for marines now.

 

their base squad ability is excellent and means they wont get pinned down, and their access to two grav weapons means they're actually a threat to tanks. Nice

[Tacitus]

2 hours ago, Captain Idaho said:

To be honest, everything I normally take is pretty good. Or better, in the case of Predators, Whirlwinds, soon to be Vindicators etc.

 

Losing a 5 man Tactical Squad is annoying a little but that's ok.

 

My Bike Captain is probably the biggest loser as he's good fun and I love the paint and conversion work on him but can't use Vengeance of Ultramar anymore and is otherwise stuck with a Bike Squad I haven't actually got.

 

Sternguard being unable to roll with Firstborn characters outside specials or in a Rhino is annoying but I suppose a Drop Pod is viable.

Sternguard can't ride in a Rhino - they have an armor keyword.

58 minutes ago, Blindhamster said:

whilst being forced to squad size of 10 for tacticals sucks, IMO they're probably the best battleline unit for marines now.

 

their base squad ability is excellent and means they wont get pinned down, and their access to two grav weapons means they're actually a threat to tanks. Nice

I think you're best off taking a mix.  You want some Incursors to pump Oath, you're going to want some Intercessors to Sticky Cap, Heavy Intercessors to camp.

[Captain Idaho]

Yeah I know, that's why I said I find that annoying.

[Tacitus]

45 minutes ago, Captain Idaho said:

Yeah I know, that's why I said I find that annoying.

I must have misunderstood.

 

As for the biggest losers?

 

Just about everything with "Veteran" in the name

 

Sternguard Vets.

 

Vanguard Vets doubly so

 

Tyrranic War Vets got the second worst treatment.

 

Second only to Veteran Intercessors which disappeared. 

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

VGV are probably the biggest losers imho.

[L30n1d4s]

Sternguard are WAY better now, have to disagree with you a lot there Tacticus.

 

Yes, they can't ride in a Rhino, but man, their damage potential (and the accuracy of their rules to their fluff) is significantly improved over their 8th/9th edition version! On top of that, their new models are great.

[Kallas]

• Vanguard Veterans were absolutely gutted. Terrible decision, no logic to it whatsoever, especially when we see various units keeping way more options (eg, Assault Marines; most Sergeants)
• Tactical Squads being 10-man only is a stupid decision
• Primaris not being able to use Rhinos/Razorbacks is stupid and has no logic to it whatsoever (well, it does have business logic, but no gameplay logic)
• Venerable Dreadnought is gone completely, with only the generic Dreadnought (which they've stated is going to Legends)
• Firstborn characters can't join Sternguard (and vice versa: Primaris/Firstborn characters can't join the other, which is so stupid)
• (Firstborn) Command Squad is massively worse than before, because unlike Primaris they're not characters and you can't attach Apothecaries to units (though you do get to take 2x Heavy Weapon+Shield Veterans, so that totally makes up for it )
• Firstborn Techmarine has fewer wounds than the Primaris Techmarine (the only example in the whole Index) for some reason. I guess not technically a 'loser' because weapon "options" are still there, but still worth noting
• Land Speeders lose their squadron deployment, and get split out into three datasheets (technically not a negative, but it is for overall bloat)
• Sternguard lose a heap of options, guess they forgot how to use most Heavy Weapons when they put on Tacticus armour
• Relic Terminators lost a few options (no more Combi-bolter/Lightning Claw) but we know they're getting tossed in the trash once the Codex comes round
• Land Raider Crusader stays at 16 transport capacity, but the Phobos and Redeemer increase, so weakened a bit by proxy. Not a massive thing, but a bit of a reduction in value for the Crusader.
• Thunderfire Cannon is kinda meh unless it's really cheap, doesn't really do much, and is absolutely terrible compared to a handful of Barbgaunts
• Stalker is still bad, since its Skyfire overwatch ability still only hits on 6s, meaning it barely does anything, even when firing at 4 units; massively outclassed by the Hunter (which is actually maybe decent)
• Predators look kind of ok, but Gladiators just kick them in the shins and take all of their lunch money (Lancer > Annihilator easily; Destructor is probably still ok, but being anti-Infantry focused is a weird place to be with the Predator Autocannon; Reaper does actual anti-infantry firepower better still)

Surprise, it's mostly Firstborn units that lose out, what a shocker 

[Tacitus]

39 minutes ago, L30n1d4s said:

Sternguard are WAY better now, have to disagree with you a lot there Tacticus.

 

Yes, they can't ride in a Rhino, but man, their damage potential (and the accuracy of their rules to their fluff) is significantly improved over their 8th/9th edition version! On top of that, their new models are great.

Gotta disagree, they lost a lot of the range that was their previous niche.  They should have kept the old Combi-weapon rules, and addon the new bolter rules which would have been a bonafide tough choice. 

[jaxom]

6 hours ago, Kallas said:

Firstborn characters can't join Sternguard (and vice versa: Primaris/Firstborn characters can't join the other, which is so stupid)

Each Tacticus character has a non-Tacticus version, except the Command Squad “characters”.

 

Land Speeders being reduced to spotters is the one thing that jumps out at me as a “loser”

Edited June 10, 2023 by jaxom

[Kallas]

52 minutes ago, jaxom said:

6 hours ago, Kallas said:

Firstborn characters can't join Sternguard (and vice versa: Primaris/Firstborn characters can't join the other, which is so stupid)

Each Tacticus character has a non-Tacticus version, except the Command Squad “characters”.

Yes, like I said, Firstborn characters can't join Sternguard.

Primaris apothecaries can join them, but not Apothecaries since they are forced into the Command Squad, for example. Lieutenants can't, but Primaris Lieutenants can; Captains can't, but Primaris Captains can.

[jaxom]

24 minutes ago, Kallas said:

Yes, like I said, Firstborn characters can't join Sternguard.

Primaris apothecaries can join them, but not Apothecaries since they are forced into the Command Squad, for example. Lieutenants can't, but Primaris Lieutenants can; Captains can't, but Primaris Captains can.

Yes, but is there a difference other than wargear options? Though the ability to hide an inferno pistol or grav-pistol probably shouldn't be underestimated.

[highwind]

I basically expected the ":cuss: you decade-long Firstborn players"-trend to continue and obviously GW didnt disappont!

 

General:
- Firstborne non-Vets units still only 2 melee attacks per model just after basically EVERYTHING else (including CSM Legionares, who are the exact damn thing) got atleast 3 melee attacks with basic "close combat weapon"
- Bolt guns even more underwhelming in comparison to (unified) Bolt rifles than last edition, Firstborn special/heavy weapons only marginally better/more specialized in comparison to (buffed) Intercessors astartes grenade launchers and plain worse than plasma incinerators/super rocketlaunchers
- Losing out on the exclusiveness of the two really stand out transport options (Drop Pod => deep strike and Land Raider => charge after disembark) while getting nothing in return (fire deck 6 Impulsor for Devastators? Dream on!)

Tactical Squad:
base/min size of 10 models, no combat squads... its not enough Primaris already got the better battleline unit(s), they also simply MUST have the (overall) cheapest!

tacticals currently cant even ride a Razorback, can it get any more ridicolous?

Assault Squad:
option of using a Flamer/Melta/Plasmagun leaves models without ANY form of melee weapons (and consequently ZERO melee attacks)... because having any relevant advantage over the compareable Primaris unit (Assault Intercessors) is just not an option!

Devastator Squad:
basically the only infantry unit in the WHOLE index which CANNOT be lead by any character... no way a Firstborn unit might get the edge over their Primaris equivalent (Hellblasters/Desolators) with slightly better weapons/options and the same availabitly of lethal hits/substained hits/4+ invuls!

Vanguard Vets:
All weapon options got cramped into "Hierloom weapons" which is basically the only "power weapon" (=> S5 melee weapon) with less than -2 AP and also one of very few with only 1D... you expected a Firstborn unit to stay better than their Primaris equivalent (Bladequard)? Cute fool!

(Dont get me wrong on this: I do like the simplification of one weapon profile for the whole unit... its just that this weapon profile is utterly bad in comparion to what was possible before)

Sternguard Vets:
yeah, good joke, I know...

 

Command Squad:

3 psuedo-characters buffing 2 special weapon guys - must be the best concept in all 40K datasheet history!
 

Edited June 11, 2023 by Jolemai
Swear filter dodge

[highwind]

12 hours ago, Captain Idaho said:

My Bike Captain is probably the biggest loser as he's good fun and I love the paint and conversion work on him but can't use Vengeance of Ultramar anymore and is otherwise stuck with a Bike Squad I haven't actually got.

 

That Bike Captain is probably one of the best units in the whole index...

Equip him a Power Fist and "The Honor Vehement" enhancement and team him up with a full squad of Outriders (=6 Outriders and 1 ATV).

As part of that unit he benefits from their "Turbo Boost" ability and his "Swift Assault" rule makes all their weapons assault, resulting in a permanent 18" advance move with shooting!

Fun doesnt end there tough: use his "Rites of Battle" rule every turn and target his own unit with the "Adaptive Strategy" stratagem for being in "Assault Doctrin" all the time and now that unit has permanent 18"advance WITH shoot AND charge (20-30" threat range)! With "The Honor Vehement" his Powerfist is permanently pushed to S10 and 7A and his bodyguard-unit sports a whopping 32 wounds at T5 which enemys must punch through before being able to target him directly (without any special rules) or having him lose his special rule snowball.

 

The same works with a unit of 6 Bikes and 1 Attack Bike... you lose 1AP on their Bolter shooting, (6x2=) 12A on their Chainswords and a total of 9W of meat-shield, but depending on point costs / game size that might still be more than enough while being far more efficent

 

[L30n1d4s]

I know this thread is about the losers, not the winners, but gosh, so much "I'm a firstborn player and ive been screwed" here (btw, I have whole armies of both Firstborn and Primaris and have been playing since 4th, in case anyone wants to go down that route). 

 

Firstborn vehicles are excellent, especially Land Raiders, Predators, Vindicators, Hunters, and Whirlwinds, the best they have been since at least 7th edition.

 

As for losers, I totally agree about Vanguard Vets took it on the chin, but Assault Marines got very good now, Devastators with Razorbacks can be excellent (full rerolls to Wound... are you kidding me... especially with 4 Heavy Flamers), Assault Terminators are also top notch, as are the Firstborn TDA models leading them. Also, Scout Snipers are quite good now (can't be targeted outside 12", Dmg2 Sniper Rifles that hit on 2+s), regular Scouts are amazing "disappear and reappear" to get objectives, Scout Bikers with all Grenade Launchers can outshoot lots of units (S9 AP-2 Krak Grenades and shotguns), Centurions of both flavors are quite competitive (well, by their rules... points cost will determine this I guess), and guess what, only First Born still get access to Bike Captains and Jump Captains.

 

Aside from Vanguard Vets, Command Squads, and Tacticals not fitting in Razorbacks, I'd say the biggest losers from this are Reiver Lieutenants, Phobos Captains, Gladiator Reapers (lost 50% of the shots and -1AP on their main weapon), Eradicators (again, half as many shots and now these shots are significantly worse versus vehicles), and Plasma Inceptors (again half as many shots is a major hit, no matter how you spin it). What do all of these have in common...Primaris!

 

Now, I'm not trying to say Firstborn didn't take hits (they sure did, especially Vanguard and Command Squads), but they are far from the only ones, as lots of Primaris have been significantly nerfed from 9th. This is also not to say I'm upset... I think GW did quite a good job, considering they are literally rewriting THOUSANDS of datasheets here, not a perfect job, but a good one where the majority of SM units (Firstborn and Primaris) are worth considering in a competitive list.

 

In summary, I disagree significantly with this "GW hates Firstborn, we are such victims, Woe is me" narrative that I hear a lot here (again, I still own many thousands of points of UM, Space Wolves, and Blood Angel's that are pure Firstborn).

Edited June 11, 2023 by L30n1d4s

[Blindhamster]

1 hour ago, highwind said:

Tactical Squad:
base/min size of 10 models, no combat squads... its not enough Primaris already got the better battleline unit(s), they also simply MUST have the (overall) cheapest!

tacticals currently cant even ride a Razorback, can it get any more ridicolous?

Tacticals are the best battleline squad in the index, their base ability is amazing. They've also got access to multiple grav weapons which means unlike basically any other infantry* they can comfortably take on vehicles. Tacticals fit in a rhino just fine, use that instead. Don't get me wrong, I like combat squads and even said I think it should have been a unique rule for tactical squads, but their actual given rule is excellent and lets them do exactly what their name says, and they're in a pretty unique position in the marine codex as battleline infantry that can threaten vehicles legitimately.

 

1 hour ago, highwind said:

Assault Squad:
option of using a Flamer/Melta/Plasmagun leaves models without ANY form of melee weapons (and consequently ZERO melee attacks)... because having any relevant advantage over the compareable Primaris unit (Assault Intercessors) is just not an option!

Assault squad in both forms are excellent with REALLY good rules, the jankiness of not having a close combat weapon will almost certainly get erratas as its clearly an oversight, even tactical squads don't have that happen - "Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity"

 

1 hour ago, highwind said:

Devastator Squad:
basically the only infantry unit in the WHOLE index which CANNOT be lead by any character... no way a Firstborn unit might get the edge over their Primaris equivalent (Hellblasters/Desolators) with slightly better weapons/options and the same availabitly of lethal hits/substained hits/4+ invuls!

You know how I put a nice little * higher up? Thats because devastators are still excellent, and can take 4 grav cannons which will threaten vehicles a lot in a meta that is almost certainly going to be vehicle heavy. Devastators are better than hellblasters and desolators due to grav and lascannons. Characters with them would indeed have been nice, just a note, Desolation squads cannot have captains or lieutenants attached either (they can have apothecaries, librarians and ancients though). Firstborn got their actual command squad unit back instead, so don't have normal ancients or apothecaries (i.e. gone back to how they were in the good old days). Anyway, the units hardly bad, and is still probably a better pick than hellblasters.

 

2 hours ago, highwind said:

Vanguard Vets:
All weapon options got cramped into "Hierloom weapons" which is basically the only "power weapon" (=> S5 melee weapon) with less than -2 AP and also one of very few with only 1D... you expected a Firstborn unit to stay better than their Primaris equivalent (Bladequard)? Cute fool!

(Dont get me wrong on this: I do like the simplification of one weapon profile for the whole unit... its just that this weapon profile is utterly bad in comparion to what was possible before)

Vanguard did indeed get neutered on this one I totally agree, use assault marines instead, they're probably one of the best melee units for marines outside of terminators now :P

 

2 hours ago, highwind said:

Sternguard Vets:
yeah, good joke, I know...

made me laugh, these guys seem pretty great, and could be used as firstborn or primaris, losing some weapon options suck, but their basic gun is excellent. May even get some more options once the MPK comes out.

 

2 hours ago, highwind said:

Command Squad:

3 psuedo-characters buffing 2 special weapon guys - must be the best concept in all 40K datasheet history!

Bite your tongue sir! it was the return of a classic venerable space marine unit and something that was great to see - this is where your captain should go. A flavourful classic unit that I'm personally sad didn't get a primaris update ;)

 

But seriously, firstborn didn't do badly out of the index really, with the admittedly painful exception of vanguard.

[Kallas]

5 hours ago, Blindhamster said:

But seriously, firstborn didn't do badly out of the index really, with the admittedly painful exception of vanguard

 

6 hours ago, L30n1d4s said:

Now, I'm not trying to say Firstborn didn't take hits (they sure did, especially Vanguard and Command Squads), but they are far from the only ones, as lots of Primaris have been significantly nerfed from 9th.

A lot of the Firstborn stuff has been significantly neutered, not in comparison to 9e, but compared to the rest of the marine line. It's not "woe is Firstborn", it's that GW is pushing Primaris harder than ever. It's hard to take "Primaris got nerfed too!" seriously when Firstborn keep getting stripped down more just to make room for Primaris.

 

Primaris units might be worse than their 9e versions, but so are Firstborn units, so that's not exactly a major point.

 

Comparing most Firstborn units to their Primaris counterpart shows that Primaris have the edge most of the time (there are some abilities that stand out, eg, Tacticals vs Intercessors abilities) but then other parts of the datasheets make a difference (eg, way better Bolters and the AGL being basically a better Plasma Gun/Meltagun). Really it's only characters that lose out on wargear options (and I've already stated that it's stupid that Primaris are that restrictive, especially considering Primaris Sergeants have most of the same options as Firstborn already). On top of that we have more units like Sternguard: lose a heap of options and now can't use things like Rhinos/Razorbacks because they're Primaris. Wonderful 

[Bouargh]

As the joke of the day -!-  feel obliged to put this disclaimer as I suffered in other topics some answers that indicate second degree is often somthing ill understood -!- : if some one has been stolen and lost it is this unit - the back picture of the Typhoon clearly states that it used to be an über-killing machine which jhas been departed from its weapons in the rules... 

 

Kidding apart. I guess that as long as we do not have the point values, debating about losers and winners is still a difficult and perious exercice - rules may sometimes testify in favour of what looks like a clear big nerf but if the point value is adjusted in consequences, well, it might add a serious level of hue, wouldn´t?

[Captain Idaho]

I must confess I think Firstborn are really solid in the rules. The weakest part to me is the Vanguard but the Assault squad is possibly the biggest winner by a decent margin. So much so I want 10 of those badboys now.

 

But the topic is losers and my army is Firstborn so that'll be the reason really.

 

I think Vanguard are the standout datasheet in the whole Index really. Everything else seems to have a place.

 

Oh yeah, Firstborn Apothecary, Champion's and Ancients.

 

Talking of a Primaris loser I'd say Inceptors. The main rules punish them with Hazardous, they don't get character support and their special rule is pretty worthless really. The increased toughness makes their use against vehicles lessened also.

Edited June 11, 2023 by Captain Idaho

[Sir Clausel]

51 minutes ago, Captain Idaho said:

Talking of a Primaris loser I'd say Inceptors. The main rules punish them with Hazardous, they don't get character support and their special rule is pretty worthless really. The increased toughness makes their use against vehicles lessened also.

 

The plasma variant yes. But the bolter one is good now i think. Lost 3 shots but gained sustained hits 2, assault, pistol and are now dmg 2! 

[Kallas]

1 hour ago, Captain Idaho said:

Talking of a Primaris loser I'd say Inceptors. The main rules punish them with Hazardous, they don't get character support and their special rule is pretty worthless really. The increased toughness makes their use against vehicles lessened also.

Can't agree here. Plasma is less of a "always better than Assault Bolter", but it's still good. Assault, Pistol and Twin-linked, with D2 regular shots (D3 supercharged, so threatens TEQs). Hazardous is a risk, but it's less of a risk than previously: 1 die per model that shot, rather than any 1s to hit is safer for Plasma Inceptors; it's worse for single-shot, rr1s plasma weapons like in 9e, but they're safer than previously unaccompanied Inceptors (only when compared to the compulsory Captain rerolls they needed to be safe in 9e are they worse off, and I'm too tired right now to work out the maths on multiple variable shots where any 1s are a dead model).

 

1 hour ago, Captain Idaho said:

I must confess I think Firstborn are really solid in the rules.

I think Firstborn units have generally fine rules, I just think they're getting the shaft in army composition and some unit wargear (eg, Vanguard, who have been gutted and left to rot).

[Marshal Reinhard]

Really think gw should have dared to put a big = sign between tacitus and classic marine characters. All captains are just captains, and can join all the relevant non special armor squads, etc. 

 

Still haven't even begun to wrap my head around the index, and truth to be told its not even this index im waiting on...

Edited June 11, 2023 by Marshal Reinhard

[Tacitus]

2 hours ago, Captain Idaho said:

I must confess I think Firstborn are really solid in the rules. The weakest part to me is the Vanguard but the Assault squad is possibly the biggest winner by a decent margin. So much so I want 10 of those badboys now.

 

But the topic is losers and my army is Firstborn so that'll be the reason really.

 

I think Vanguard are the standout datasheet in the whole Index really. Everything else seems to have a place.

 

Oh yeah, Firstborn Apothecary, Champion's and Ancients.

 

Talking of a Primaris loser I'd say Inceptors. The main rules punish them with Hazardous, they don't get character support and their special rule is pretty worthless really. The increased toughness makes their use against vehicles lessened also.

 

I want to agree with you until I remember the Monte Haul of Anti-Fly 2+.   Jump Infantry could be murdered by stuff you were taking anyway with a throwaway weapon.