Those that lost out aka- the "losers" of the SM 10th index

[Captain Idaho]

Is there a lot of Anti-air about?

[Tacitus]

They keyword is Anti-Fly - which is what makes it hit the Jump Packers -  and its usually 2+ and its on a lot of things like Redemptor chassis Dreads, Repulsors, and Gladiators in addition to actual Anti-"air" units like the Hunters, Stalkers, Impulsor AA Top, and Jets. 

[Brother Captain Vakarian]

The Icarus rocket pod—the only thing on the Redemptor with anti-fly—is Strength 8 so it was already wounding jump pack marines on a 2+ even without anti-fly. The only thing anti-fly is really concerning on is the Hunter because that does Devastating Wounds on a 2+ to wound to anything with Fly. 

[Tacitus]

Redemptor Chassis - which also means the Brutalis' Twin Icarus Iron Hail with Anti-fly 4+ 3A RapidFire 3 

Edited June 11, 2023 by Tacitus

[Brother Captain Vakarian]

You mean the Brutalis then? Again, the Twin Icarus Iron Hail is base Strength 4, so it was already wounding jump pack marines on 4s regardless of anti-fly (ok, Inceptors slightly lose out but… whatever). 
 

Anti-fly “looks” like it hurts jump pack marines but the end result in pretty much all instances is that the same wound roll is required that always was (again, Hunter is different because of Devastating Wounds). 

[Tokugawa]

Being "too good" in very early time of new edition is a very bad news. The faction may pay this debt in next time of the whole edition. 

[Tacitus]

If you've got throw away Anti-Fly shots are you going to dump them on the Tac Squad or the Jump Packers?  I'm probably going to use it on the Jump Packers for two reasons:

 

1) the power of suggestion - using Anti-fly on a flyer

2) the potential for shenanigans via strats/rules. 

[Captain Idaho]

I'm not particularly worried about Space Marines anti-air for jump pack troops.

 

The Hunter is actually powerful and scary against flyers but whether folk use it... I don't know.

 

Maybe the Hunter will be good. Should be powerful against Space Elves and Tau. With Overwatch you can really hurt multiple vehicles hitting on a 2+, once in your shooting phase and any vehicle with Overwatch. Knowing you can't hit multiple units, potentially one in enemy movement phase or again in the Charge phase, you can afford to fire in your turn against Jump Pack troops and score D6+2 Mortal Wounds on a 3+.

 

But anyway, even so I don't regard that as making Assault Marines poor.

Edited June 11, 2023 by Captain Idaho

[Brother Captain Vakarian]

1 hour ago, Tacitus said:

If you've got throw away Anti-Fly shots are you going to dump them on the Tac Squad or the Jump Packers?  I'm probably going to use it on the Jump Packers for two reasons:

 

1) the power of suggestion - using Anti-fly on a flyer

2) the potential for shenanigans via strats/rules. 

 

I would put those shots into whichever was the more important target at the moment, because there is no actual difference in putting an Icarus rocket pod or an Icarus Ironhail into Tacs versus Assault Marines.

 

Both hit on the same value (3+ if we're assuming Redemptor/Brutalis).

 

The Icarus wounds both on a 2+: S8 vs. T4 for the Tacs, and Anti-Fly 2+ vs. the Assault Marines.

 

The Ironhail wounds both on a 4+: S4 vs. T4 for the Tacs, and Anti-Fly 4+ vs. the Assault Marines.

 

The rocket pod and Ironhail are better into something like a Land speeder (and even into Inceptors, if only marginally), but that wasn't the question presented. The question here is whether they're better into Assault Marines: and they aren't. There is no difference.

[Arikel]

By far the hardest hit were the Vanguard. I have a bunch of vets newly promoted to captains and lieutenants.

 

Otherwise firstborn don’t seem too bad. Assault squad was really glowed up. Take em on foot if you’re worried about antifly.
 

Grav seems to be the best infantry based antivehicle going and almost every firstborn unit can take it in some form, do primaris even have a grav weapon squad yet?

 

Our leaders have more wargear options than their direct primaris equivalents, in fact the only way to play the imperium exclusive captain legally is to run him as firstborn.
 

Scouts have been boosted as well, look actually useful this time.

 

Primaris still can’t use rhinos, meaning that they lack a basic transport option for large squads, requiring either one shot drop pods or heavyduty transports to carry them.

 

Might have more thoughts later but need to study the index again. This is what’s leapt at me from first reading.
 

 

[Tacitus]

11 hours ago, Captain Idaho said:

I'm not particularly worried about Space Marines anti-air for jump pack troops.

 

The Hunter is actually powerful and scary against flyers but whether folk use it... I don't know.

 

Maybe the Hunter will be good. Should be powerful against Space Elves and Tau. With Overwatch you can really hurt multiple vehicles hitting on a 2+, once in your shooting phase and any vehicle with Overwatch. Knowing you can't hit multiple units, potentially one in enemy movement phase or again in the Charge phase, you can afford to fire in your turn against Jump Pack troops and score D6+2 Mortal Wounds on a 3+.

 

But anyway, even so I don't regard that as making Assault Marines poor.

What I'm worried about is which other factions will that trend continue in?

[Tacitus]

11 hours ago, Brother Captain Vakarian said:

 

I would put those shots into whichever was the more important target at the moment, because there is no actual difference in putting an Icarus rocket pod or an Icarus Ironhail into Tacs versus Assault Marines.

 

Both hit on the same value (3+ if we're assuming Redemptor/Brutalis).

 

The Icarus wounds both on a 2+: S8 vs. T4 for the Tacs, and Anti-Fly 2+ vs. the Assault Marines.

 

The Ironhail wounds both on a 4+: S4 vs. T4 for the Tacs, and Anti-Fly 4+ vs. the Assault Marines.

 

The rocket pod and Ironhail are better into something like a Land speeder (and even into Inceptors, if only marginally), but that wasn't the question presented. The question here is whether they're better into Assault Marines: and they aren't. There is no difference.

Assuming you can't do something with the Critical Wounds.

[spessmarine]

14 hours ago, Captain Idaho said:

Maybe the Hunter will be good. Should be powerful against Space Elves and Tau. With Overwatch you can really hurt multiple vehicles hitting on a 2+, once in your shooting phase and any vehicle with Overwatch. Knowing you can't hit multiple units, potentially one in enemy movement phase or again in the Charge phase, you can afford to fire in your turn against Jump Pack troops and score D6+2 Mortal Wounds on a 3+.

 

Why just elves and Tau? Mortarion is a Monster with Fly, you'll hit him on a 2+ no matter what and 2/3 times you go straight to hitting him with D6+2 mortal wounds.

As low as 3, but as high as 8, substantial. And remember, no more DR for him

[Captain Idaho]

Poor Death Guard. This release hasn't been kind.

[Tacitus]

I have to think this is a keyword issue not really a unit/ability issue.  Some sort of intermediary between Fly and Aircraft should probably be in there - I mean it probably still fails Morty/Magnus/Angron/Followup Flying Primarchs/equivalents like Sanguinius, Corvus Corvax, Flyrants, and so on. On the one hand you kind of want to include Speeders flying "high", but not a hover tank like the Repulsor should be, or the Tau/Eldar stuff.

[Brother Captain Vakarian]

7 hours ago, Tacitus said:

Assuming you can't do something with the Critical Wounds.

There’s nothing in the index that allows you to, unless I’ve missed something. 

[Kallas]

13 minutes ago, Brother Captain Vakarian said:

There’s nothing in the index that allows you to, unless I’ve missed something. 

Yeah, Critical Hits and Critical Wounds are just successes, regardless of the WS/BS or S/T roll required; unless another rule interacts with them (eg, Sustained Hits or Devastating Wounds) they don't do anything else.

[Tacitus]

3 hours ago, Brother Captain Vakarian said:

There’s nothing in the index that allows you to, unless I’ve missed something. 

 

3 hours ago, Kallas said:

Yeah, Critical Hits and Critical Wounds are just successes, regardless of the WS/BS or S/T roll required; unless another rule interacts with them (eg, Sustained Hits or Devastating Wounds) they don't do anything else.

 Yeah Strats/Det/character bespokes would/could come into play and I still suspect some power of suggestion - You brrrrrrt the Repulsor/whatever, have the AA gun left over, some people will just pick the Fly unit. 

[macradam_hue]

From being an anchor of most of my 9th lists, I don't know if I'll be running BGV in my 10th lists. Just a simple thing, but not being able to run 5+ a character in an Impulsor makes them much less attractive. They make be ok footslogging up the board, but being dropped off in the centre is a much better play

[Tacitus]

5 hours ago, AdRoc said:

From being an anchor of most of my 9th lists, I don't know if I'll be running BGV in my 10th lists. Just a simple thing, but not being able to run 5+ a character in an Impulsor makes them much less attractive. They make be ok footslogging up the board, but being dropped off in the centre is a much better play

Drop Pods.  Which are funny enough OC2 - I would have made them OC 0 but as long as they are OC2, drop, climb out, kill everything in the area, leave the Pod behind to secure the objective, who needs sticky caps? 

 

The bad thing is you can't run 5 - you can run 3, or you can run 6 - But I'd be pretty tempted to run TH/SS Terminators instead of BGV depending - however you still have to match character to squad.  For example Calgar can't join Assault Termies, so its BGV. 

[macradam_hue]

20 hours ago, Tacitus said:

Drop Pods.  Which are funny enough OC2 - I would have made them OC 0 but as long as they are OC2, drop, climb out, kill everything in the area, leave the Pod behind to secure the objective, who needs sticky caps? 

 

The bad thing is you can't run 5 - you can run 3, or you can run 6 - But I'd be pretty tempted to run TH/SS Terminators instead of BGV depending - however you still have to match character to squad.  For example Calgar can't join Assault Termies, so its BGV. 

Yeah sure. Except I don't own drop pods. And I don't want to have to buy them just because the rules changed. I want to run units like the rules (as in data cards) say I can. But I can't (without penalty) because of a stupid error/decision on the points document.

[Tacitus]

Their rules haven't changed.  Well, they have but for the even better, its not even half Turn 1, half turn 2 now.   If you don't want them that's ok, and your choice, but they've been worth buying all on their own for a while now. 

[macradam_hue]

11 hours ago, Tacitus said:

Their rules haven't changed.  Well, they have but for the even better, its not even half Turn 1, half turn 2 now.   If you don't want them that's ok, and your choice, but they've been worth buying all on their own for a while now. 

They have for me, I only came back to the hobby in 8th so am pretty much completely primaris. Therefore never had a use for drop pods before. Sorry, not trying to prolong an argument or anything, as you say we all have our own choice - albeit GW has limited it somewhat with this points document!

[BrainFireBob]

On 6/11/2023 at 12:33 PM, Arikel said:

By far the hardest hit were the Vanguard. I have a bunch of vets newly promoted to captains and lieutenants.

 

Otherwise firstborn don’t seem too bad. Assault squad was really glowed up. Take em on foot if you’re worried about antifly.
 

Grav seems to be the best infantry based antivehicle going and almost every firstborn unit can take it in some form, do primaris even have a grav weapon squad yet?

 

Our leaders have more wargear options than their direct primaris equivalents, in fact the only way to play the imperium exclusive captain legally is to run him as firstborn.
 

Scouts have been boosted as well, look actually useful this time.

 

Primaris still can’t use rhinos, meaning that they lack a basic transport option for large squads, requiring either one shot drop pods or heavyduty transports to carry them.

 

Might have more thoughts later but need to study the index again. This is what’s leapt at me from first reading.
 

 

I am having a hard time not seeing GW giving a last hurrah to some units. 

 

That said, assault squads received 2 glow-ups. Since it's 2 data sheets, you get 6 squads.

[Tacitus]

You can always use a Repulsor, Landraider, or Impulsor.  I've long had BGV with addons in a Shield Dome Impulsor running through my head when list making.   With the potential improvement to Repulsors, and opening up LandRaiders its even more so.   Right now I'm bouncing around between 3BGV and:  Bladeugard Captain, Bladeguard Lieutenant, Bladeguard Ancient, Potentially adding the Lone Operative Lieutenant with Combi-weapon to the transport but otherwise it can't "lead" - or even 3 more BGV.  The weird thing is a LOT of units can't join BGV. 

 

I'm really really hoping they eventually create a datasheet for the Primaris Command Squad with 5 Bladeguard OR Sternguard, Primaris Apothecary, Primaris/Bladeguard Ancient, Primaris Champion, and room for Cap and LT to make 10 total.