Those that lost out aka- the "losers" of the SM 10th index

[Karhedron]

On 6/17/2023 at 8:57 AM, AdRoc said:

From being an anchor of most of my 9th lists, I don't know if I'll be running BGV in my 10th lists. Just a simple thing, but not being able to run 5+ a character in an Impulsor makes them much less attractive. They make be ok footslogging up the board, but being dropped off in the centre is a much better play

 

You can run 6 in an Impulsor and use them in the same way. Not every squad needs a Leader in 10th edition and BGVs pack ample punch to handle themselves in the midfield.

 

If you do want a Transport then the Land Raider is a much better option for them in 10th than an Impulsor thanks to the Assault Ramp rule. Being able to Disembark and Assault out of a vehicle after it has moved is great for BGVs.

[Dracos]

Am I wrong assuming Indexes are just the tip of the iceberg? That codexes are coming that will refine each faction?

 

Bladeguard have been good but they really needed a buff to get real results, so I see the desire to have a Leader, but it seems awful to early to be declaring winners and losers without actually playing real games and testing out the combinations. 

Edited June 19, 2023 by Dracos

[CCE1981]

Don't forget a Standard Repulsor is good as well and 80 pts cheaper than a Standard Land Raider, and 60 pts Cheaper than the Crusader...let's forget about the Ridiculous cost of the Redeemer.  

[Maritn]

On 6/19/2023 at 6:52 PM, Dracos said:

Am I wrong assuming Indexes are just the tip of the iceberg? That codexes are coming that will refine each faction?

 

From what I remember the codices will not drastically change the data sheets, but I might be wrong.

[Tacitus]

They may have said so, but what they say and what they do are rarely what most players call similar - plus they don't have to change the datasheet to change the datasheet - changes to strats, Detachments, and Army Abilities can also have as much impact. 

[Orange Knight]

I think the big losers from the index are most "Firstborn" infantry units, for various reasons.

 

Scouts are really great in terms of rules, as are the biker units. This is unfortunate as these two units are represented by some of the ugliest kits in the range, with truly bad proportions.

Vanguard are obviously toned down significantly (which I believe is the correct thing to do).

 

The big problem with the old Marines comes in the form of the separation of characters and the units they can join, and continuing transport limitations. Characters and units are wholy segregated between the two ranges, and the new rules lean into the specialised roles of the various Primaris. The old range doesn't stack up aainst the new units -The Desolators, Hellblasters, Inceptors, Intercessors etc have more compelling rules and abilities, and offer greater tactical capabilities for the army, and now they have access to Drop Pods and the Landraider. 

 

Speaking of Landraiders - these are great. I just wish the Techmarine could grant them an invul save, the same way that the Tech Priest does for Guard and AdMech.

 

 

 

[Tacitus]

Oh I think there's an even mix of winners and losers in both sides of the range - Firstborn Company Command are basic Marine statlines.  Primaris Company Command are split with bespoke stats but are unable to actually form a Company Command. 

 

All the Infantry feel like they're in a decent place - but the transports are still screwed up - there still isn't a "Rhino" quality transport for more than 6 Primaris.

 

The bespoke "upgrades" on specials/higher ranked characters isn't particularly inspiring.  Calgar giving one freebie Repeat, or allow Repeat(s) +1 CP per turn should have been a thing, with the theme continuing to Guilliman allowing Repeats +2 CP. 

 

The regression of Ghaz is bad news for the return of more Primarchs - he should have continued his evolution into the Prime Ork that can go toe to toe with a Primarch, and they should have brought the rest - And some sort of counterpart for the Xenos - back. 

[Marshal Reinhard]

9 hours ago, Orange Knight said:

Speaking of Landraiders - these are great. I just wish the Techmarine could grant them an invul save, the same way that the Tech Priest does for Guard and AdMech.

It'd be the Ultimate Astartes Vehicle winner if it also just got a new kit.

 

I'm banking on new scouts in a kill team in autumn, but a new sexy 40k LR would be dope.

[Captain Idaho]

I'm not seeing the Firstborn as losers at all. They seem really solid.

Edited June 22, 2023 by Captain Idaho

[Vermintide]

Not sure how I feel about the representation of storm shields. On some units (BGV) they just seem to represent the invuln built into the unit, whereas on others (captain, TH/SS Terminators) they grant additional wounds. 4 wound terminators is certainly nothing to turn your nose up at, but an extra wound on a captain is... Ehh, not sure I'm that thrilled. I actually thought the +1 to save in 9th was one of the better representations for them throughout the history of the editions.

 

I feel like overall a lot of the shooting just feels a bit underwhelming now, and even though we have always had access to a busted combo here and there, it's not like Marines are renowned as this super shooty gunline castle army. Marines have always required a reasonably combined arms approach, but given the relatively tame profiles on plasma and melta, I'm not sure exactly where they fit in. Even melee which is usually more rewarding for the risk taken, even as a Blood Angel player, I'm feeling a bit like a big part of the list-building approach (for try-hard lists, at least) is going to be squeezing in as many efficient lascannon shots as possible. Guess this is one of those things where we have to see how the meta shakes out though- What do you guys think, are we supposed to be leaning onto stuff like lethal hits, devastating wounds etc rather than relying on a high-strength profile?

 

In a more broader sense I'm, starting to feel like the Marine line is so bloated now that it's really a struggle to give individual units identity. Some of the unit special rules help a lot but even so... Sternguard never appealed to me because I want guys with swords and hammers etc; but before Hellblasters and Eradicators etc were on the scene, they at least always had an identity as "that one squad you can kit out with all special weapons". Back in the firstborn lineup, that made sense, because they were the only real ones to give you that. Nowadays I struggle to think why I'd ever want them, and I want a reason to want them because their new models are sick. But I digress, that's a general gripe rather than a specific weakness in this index.

 

Oh and one last thing. Brutalis Dread seems to have had a rapid fall from grace, as far as I can see it really doesn't get much benefit at all over a regular Redemptor. It gets like 1 more attack at exactly the same profile with fists, and only gains the benefit of a half strength sweep with claws. Not exactly showing it off as a melee specialist.

[Paladin777]

I'm going to put in my 2¢ in and say that for the points, vanguard vets are excellent. They just need a little bit of help from a jump librarian for the AP or captain for the free strat and a flurry of Str 6 attacks on the charge. Being able to take storm shields on these guys really makes them pretty durable to fair bit of fire. 

 

Next I'm going to say that Inceptors are not only as good as previously, but frequently better. 

 

Between Sustained Hits 2 and TL, bolter inceptors have identical average output to their 9e versions (if a bit swingier) against T3/4, and better output against tougher targets!

 

While the plasma inceptors lost shots, they also do 2d base with the non-overcharge profiles and TL goes a *very* long way toward making up for the stretched toughness table... not to mention they're much cheaper now. You can field 6 of either variety for 230 points, whereas before they were 240 for 6 bolters and a whopping 360 for 6 plasma!

 

not to mention that their weapons are pistols now, so trying to lock them into combat is a dicey prospect for whatever's trying to do the locking!

 

Bottom line for inceptors is that they're not losers in the slightest, they're actually winners!

Edited June 22, 2023 by Paladin777

[Tacitus]

9 hours ago, Vermintide said:

Not sure how I feel about the representation of storm shields. On some units (BGV) they just seem to represent the invuln built into the unit, whereas on others (captain, TH/SS Terminators) they grant additional wounds. 4 wound terminators is certainly nothing to turn your nose up at, but an extra wound on a captain is... Ehh, not sure I'm that thrilled. I actually thought the +1 to save in 9th was one of the better representations for them throughout the history of the editions.

Thats exactly what they are - if the unit doesn't have an invuln it gets 4++, if they do it gets 1W. Yeah, keeping the +1AS plus either or would have been nicer in the "less lethal" era, but there's time for a retcon. 

[Karhedron]

11 hours ago, Vermintide said:

What do you guys think, are we supposed to be leaning onto stuff like lethal hits, devastating wounds etc rather than relying on a high-strength profile?

 

I think both approaches are viable. Lethal Hits, Devastating Wounds and Rerolls everywhere certainly help if you want to run a classic infantry-focussed Marine army.

 

But we do have the tools to run high Strength big guns too. The Valiant and Executioner both pack great big anti-tank weapons that look decent in 10th. Perhaps the biggest winner in this category though is the trusty old Vindicator. That Demolisher Cannon gets D6+3 S14 shots with Blast making it really good for taking on both tough targets and large units.

  

11 hours ago, Vermintide said:

Nowadays I struggle to think why I'd ever want them, and I want a reason to want them because their new models are sick. But I digress, that's a general gripe rather than a specific weakness in this index.

 

Sternguard are still perhaps the ultimate in flexible infantry except they are good against everything rather than needing a specific flavour of special/combi weapon to do their job. Their basic bolters and heavy bolters have Devastating Wounds. If you are targetting a unit with OOM on it, each Sternguard will pretty reliably dish out 1 MW each, against anything (on top of normal damage). 10-11 MWs from a full squad against anything, even a Knight or Daemon Primarch is actually pretty good. Don't worry about combi-weapons, these guys will delete an awful lot of stuff with just their bolters and they don't really need Character or stratagem support to do it.

 

11 hours ago, Vermintide said:

Oh and one last thing. Brutalis Dread seems to have had a rapid fall from grace, as far as I can see it really doesn't get much benefit at all over a regular Redemptor. It gets like 1 more attack at exactly the same profile with fists, and only gains the benefit of a half strength sweep with claws. Not exactly showing it off as a melee specialist.

 

Yes, the sweep attacks make it more flexible in melee but not really specialised. The real strength here is the extra MWs on the charge which can be stacked with the Tank Shock stratagem for 6-7 MWs on the charge which is very nice. The Redemptor is a better all-rounder though with the -1 Damage rule.

 

I am still building a Brutalis for my Blood Angels with extra bling as it is very much a successor to the old Furioso Dread. Plus I love the idea of the Brutalis yoloing into combat riding on a Stormraven! 

[Captain Idaho]

I'm looking at a Razorback and Devastator squad and thinking it's a way to really hurt something T11 and below without using Oath of Moment, so you can gack a couple targets.

 

8 Multi-melta shots, or 4 Lascannons, can nuke across the board.

 

Grav Cannons can benefit but don't really need to if firing at vehicles.

[Tacitus]

Just started doing a deeper dive on the MFM points list: 

 

I think Terminators and Centurions are at least moderately overpriced - Centurions more than Terminatores which are more than a little but less than a lot.  They're in the ballpark, but they're probably at the outfield fence.  

 

A lot of the 5-10 Infantry squads are all priced pretty much the same - they're all mostly 90/180  

 

Infiltrators and Incursors "lost" Battle Line and OC2 - But they're still probably better priced/just better than the Assault Intercessors and the Infernus Squad at the same price. 

 

Non-Sniper Scouts are only 10 points cheaper than the far more irritating Stealth equipped Sniper Scouts. 

 

Chronus went WAY up for a Tank Commander upgrade.  Meanwhile Telion also had his "counterparts" get better and got better himself while staying roughly the same price. 

 

Command squad is probably more than a little but not very overpriced itself. 

 

Reivers should be in the 90/180 bracket, not a skosh over it where they are now.  They're no longer awful, but they aren't better than all the other 90/180 units. 

 

Vindicator went way way up, but it also feels like it might be right, we'll have to see. 

 

Dreads went up, maybe a skosh too much, but very close.

 

I'd like to see Assault Intercessors and Tac Squads swap bespokes, and have the wound rule for Tacs (on shooting and melee) while the Assault Intercessors can fall back and charge. 

[Karhedron]

The Vindicator has a massive gun but a points cost to match. It is also going to have an outsized target painted on its hull. This boy is going to be a big candidate for Techmarine buffs/heals as well as the Smoke stratagem.

 

I have a hunch that once an opponent sees a Vindicator fire, they won't want to see it fire again! Keeping it alive long enough to earn its points back will be the challenge. Maybe it can actually be used as a distraction-carnifex in an armoured list.

Edited June 23, 2023 by Karhedron

[Tacitus]

Its got one of the highest rates of fire for a gun that strong.   Two of them just about equal a knight in points, wounds, damage output etc and for good reason.