Outriders: A worthy unit?

[Agramar_The_Luna_Wolf]

Hi.

My SoH army is nearly done but I lack Fast Attack units. I only have Seekers and I was thinking to add more units and variety.

My first idea was to add an Sky Hunter Squad but they aren't available yet (). So  "second best" option are Outriders.

I can convert two CSM bikers as star, but I'm not sure to expand the unit far more from the very basic ( 3 members if I recall correctly). And how to equip them.

Any counsel,help, ideas,...?

All welcomed!

[dicebod]

Outriders really struggle in this new edition. They're incredibly fragile and kinda expensive. The SoH legion rule helps a little bit on the fragile side, but they're far from an awesome pick.

If you do want bikes though, I'll point you towards a command squad on bikes. You get 2+ saves, better weapon options, WS5, and scoring from the banner all for a very minor point increase over standard outriders. They don't live in the FA slot but they do much the same thing, and better.

[Cruor Vault]

Sky Hunters are MUCH better than Outriders, and are available (just very hard to find as stocks have been limited lately).  That being said, @dicebod is correct, the bike command squad is a really great unit.

[MichaelCarmine]

I made the mistake at first, of just reading over them and moaning about what they all lostcompared to HH1.0, but thats the wrong way to judge them.

To really tell, how good/bad they are, you have to compare them to a nother unit, that does the same. For example - Tactical Support squads.

Base, they cost exactly the same. You'll get 5 TSS compared to 3 Outriders, Adding more to a TSS will cost you 12pts, an Outrider 20pts.

their Weapon upgrades cost exactly the same. 15pts for Melta, 10pts for Plasma, but(!!!) all Outrider Weapons are Twinlinked!

 

So for comparison, a 6-man TSS with Plasma 'll cost you 157pts, a 5-man Outrider Squad 175pts

For that 18pts difference, you get 1 les plasmagunner and wound,  but double movement (14"), Relentless, Scout/Outflank, Skirmish(+1 to Unit Coherency and Cover) Hammer of Wrath, Hit&Run, Firing Protocols(2) and Twinlinked - so more shots hit and less overheat. 

And the Bikes also let them Run for a 5+ shroud, if you should need it ^^

 

I'd say, that's a damn good deal - and i wouldn't be too quick to overlook them! =]

[Agramar_The_Luna_Wolf]

7 hours ago, Cruor Vault said:

Sky Hunters are MUCH better than Outriders, and are available (just very hard to find as stocks have been limited lately).  That being said, @dicebod is correct, the bike command squad is a really great unit.

Really?? Where? Please please....

[SkimaskMohawk]

4 hours ago, MichaelCarmine said:

I made the mistake at first, of just reading over them and moaning about what they all lostcompared to HH1.0, but thats the wrong way to judge them.

To really tell, how good/bad they are, you have to compare them to a nother unit, that does the same. For example - Tactical Support squads.

Base, they cost exactly the same. You'll get 5 TSS compared to 3 Outriders, Adding more to a TSS will cost you 12pts, an Outrider 20pts.

their Weapon upgrades cost exactly the same. 15pts for Melta, 10pts for Plasma, but(!!!) all Outrider Weapons are Twinlinked!

 

So for comparison, a 6-man TSS with Plasma 'll cost you 157pts, a 5-man Outrider Squad 175pts

For that 18pts difference, you get 1 les plasmagunner and wound,  but double movement (14"), Relentless, Scout/Outflank, Skirmish(+1 to Unit Coherency and Cover) Hammer of Wrath, Hit&Run, Firing Protocols(2) and Twinlinked - so more shots hit and less overheat. 

And the Bikes also let them Run for a 5+ shroud, if you should need it ^^

 

I'd say, that's a damn good deal - and i wouldn't be too quick to overlook them! =]

 

They're both hard sells lol. Both can be used, but need specific legion combos or some help in setting them up so they don't get molested by reactions. Both have inevitable comparisons with HSS as ranged damage dealers. And the outriders also have to compete with the command squad and the sky hunters for their melee and ranged builds respectively; 150 for skyhunters gives triple multimelta, more movement, terrain hopping, double wounds, and the superior deepstrike. 

 

Part of the problem is that they're so fragile for the points you have to pay, and that just compounds with reactions resulting in tacs winning trades with them, let alone more critical targets.

[MichaelCarmine]

32 minutes ago, SkimaskMohawk said:

 

They're both hard sells lol. Both can be used, but need specific legion combos or some help in setting them up so they don't get molested by reactions. Both have inevitable comparisons with HSS as ranged damage dealers. And the outriders also have to compete with the command squad and the sky hunters for their melee and ranged builds respectively; 150 for skyhunters gives triple multimelta, more movement, terrain hopping, double wounds, and the superior deepstrike. 

 

Part of the problem is that they're so fragile for the points you have to pay, and that just compounds with reactions resulting in tacs winning trades with them, let alone more critical targets.

Well, i wouldn't really compare any of them to a HSS, since the HSS is the static damage dealing champion, whereas i'd say TSS and Outriders are the much more mobile 2+ save Infantry/Dread hunters.

 

And while i absolutely agree with you on the melta-loadout for Skyhunters, i'd think that Outriders give the much better Plasma output, especially against dreads, which would be their main target in my list.

 

And i'm not saying, everyone should get one!

Just that of you plan on fielding a TSS (which still alot of guys do), you might want to give Outriders a chance.

Maybe that didn't come thru in my previous post ^^

[SkimaskMohawk]

On 6/13/2023 at 8:04 PM, MichaelCarmine said:

Well, i wouldn't really compare any of them to a HSS, since the HSS is the static damage dealing champion, whereas i'd say TSS and Outriders are the much more mobile 2+ save Infantry/Dread hunters.

 

And while i absolutely agree with you on the melta-loadout for Skyhunters, i'd think that Outriders give the much better Plasma output, especially against dreads, which would be their main target in my list.

 

And i'm not saying, everyone should get one!

Just that of you plan on fielding a TSS (which still alot of guys do), you might want to give Outriders a chance.

Maybe that didn't come thru in my previous post ^^

 

They're all comparable, since they all want to apply their ranged special weapons to the same targets, suck at melee, and are pretty vulnerable to attacks themselves.

Yea, the bikes go fast and the TSS can have a rhino; that just lets them apply their weapons in the first place. I'm also not sure about the plasma being good at killing 2+ infantry, as most 2+ infantry have multiple wounds and the las cuts through it all. 

 

The issue I've run into with other units, and that both the TSS and Outriders have, is that they're so many points but sooooo fragile; losing models feels really bad, and you'll always lose models off the reaction or in melee if you build them for that. It really feels bad to have my 20+ point per model specialist units just haemorrhage guya as they try and do the job they're only passable at. And in the case of TSS, can't even score any more.

[MichaelCarmine]

1 hour ago, SkimaskMohawk said:

 

They're all comparable, since they all want to apply their ranged special weapons to the same targets, suck at melee, and are pretty vulnerable to attacks themselves.

Yea, the bikes go fast and the TSS can have a rhino; that just lets them apply their weapons in the first place. I'm also not sure about the plasma being good at killing 2+ infantry, as most 2+ infantry have multiple wounds and the las cuts through it all. 

 

The issue I've run into with other units, and that both the TSS and Outriders have, is that they're so many points but sooooo fragile; losing models feels really bad, and you'll always lose models off the reaction or in melee if you build them for that. It really feels bad to have my 20+ point per model specialist units just haemorrhage guya as they try and do the job they're only passable at. And in the case of TSS, can't even score any more.

But by that logic, even HSS would be too fragile to field and a Squad with Las costs about the same as a squad of outriders.

HSS are immobile and have to be placed in LoS, to be effective, TSS "need" a Rhino to sneak up, Outriders are in your face turn one.

While you can counterdeploy against bozh HSS and TSS, it is realy hard to do that against Outriders. 
Also, thanks to TwinLinked, they get much more hits on Target.

And yet, both the HSS and the TSS are played regularly - but not the Outriders, why?

 

 

Ofcourse double strgth is always better against multiwound, but Quantity of Plasma is allways good, bee it against mass infantry, heavy infantry, Dreadnoughts or light vehicles. =]

[dickyelsdon]

On 6/13/2023 at 7:17 PM, MichaelCarmine said:

I made the mistake at first, of just reading over them and moaning about what they all lostcompared to HH1.0, but thats the wrong way to judge them.

To really tell, how good/bad they are, you have to compare them to a nother unit, that does the same. For example - Tactical Support squads.

Base, they cost exactly the same. You'll get 5 TSS compared to 3 Outriders, Adding more to a TSS will cost you 12pts, an Outrider 20pts.

their Weapon upgrades cost exactly the same. 15pts for Melta, 10pts for Plasma, but(!!!) all Outrider Weapons are Twinlinked!

 

So for comparison, a 6-man TSS with Plasma 'll cost you 157pts, a 5-man Outrider Squad 175pts

For that 18pts difference, you get 1 les plasmagunner and wound,  but double movement (14"), Relentless, Scout/Outflank, Skirmish(+1 to Unit Coherency and Cover) Hammer of Wrath, Hit&Run, Firing Protocols(2) and Twinlinked - so more shots hit and less overheat. 

And the Bikes also let them Run for a 5+ shroud, if you should need it ^^

 

I'd say, that's a damn good deal - and i wouldn't be too quick to overlook them! =]

 

Thats a great way of looking at it.  Ive wanted to add a bit of mobility but trying to avoid jetbike and landspeeders for my current legion for aesthetic reasons. I liked the idea of bikes but wasnt sure, if i can find models of them (seen a few .stl being made recently) might give it a shot.

[SkimaskMohawk]

7 hours ago, MichaelCarmine said:

But by that logic, even HSS would be too fragile to field and a Squad with Las costs about the same as a squad of outriders.

 

They would be if their range didn't give them some inherent protection. Outriders need to get within 12" to have meaningful output, and at that point you're in range of...almost everything in the game when it comes to return fire.

 

7 hours ago, MichaelCarmine said:

HSS are immobile and have to be placed in LoS, to be effective, TSS "need" a Rhino to sneak up, Outriders are in your face turn one.

 

Yea that can be an issue for sure if you play on good, dense tables, and it certainly changes the dynamics of static vs mobile units. But I've beaten the drum of good terrain for years and almost always see easy firing lane boards at stores or events, so I've stopped pretending that being immobile is really a downside in most 30k games. 

 

7 hours ago, MichaelCarmine said:

While you can counterdeploy against bozh HSS and TSS, it is realy hard to do that against Outriders. 
Also, thanks to TwinLinked, they get much more hits on Target.

And yet, both the HSS and the TSS are played regularly - but not the Outriders, why?

 

Well imo it's part that return fire/charge danger zone of 12", part the defensive changes, and part that it just costs a ton to make that outriders unit do their job, and for a little more you can get much better units.

 

If the options are 325 for 10 plasma Outriders,  325 for 11 las HSS in 2 units, or 330 for 7 multi melta sky hunters I'd pick the outriders last.

 

Plasma is good burning down dreads and mechanicum bots; its flexible at dealing with 3+ infantry. But it falls off against FNP, multi wound, and the only vehicles people really use. In 1st it was the best weapon because it was so widely applicable, but the points have changed and allowed weight of lascannons and multi meltas to show up, taking that generalist role. And since plasma is really their only draw, it's passed up in favour of the more generalist options.

[MichaelCarmine]

11 hours ago, SkimaskMohawk said:

 

They would be if their range didn't give them some inherent protection. Outriders need to get within 12" to have meaningful output, and at that point you're in range of...almost everything in the game when it comes to return fire.

 

Well, i think their Weaponry makes them a bigger target, forcing enemys out of LoS or making them a primary Target, that negates that "protection" a little, i'd say =]

 

12 hours ago, SkimaskMohawk said:

Yea that can be an issue for sure if you play on good, dense tables, and it certainly changes the dynamics of static vs mobile units. But I've beaten the drum of good terrain for years and almost always see easy firing lane boards at stores or events, so I've stopped pretending that being immobile is really a downside in most 30k games. 

Yeah, well, you're definitely right there! xD We usually get a good balanced amount of terrain on the table, with quite a few big LoS blockers. But i'm with you, most of the time, you see big gaps that have to be countert by deployment...

 

12 hours ago, SkimaskMohawk said:

Well imo it's part that return fire/charge danger zone of 12", part the defensive changes, and part that it just costs a ton to make that outriders unit do their job, and for a little more you can get much better units.

 

If the options are 325 for 10 plasma Outriders,  325 for 11 las HSS in 2 units, or 330 for 7 multi melta sky hunters I'd pick the outriders last.

 

Plasma is good burning down dreads and mechanicum bots; its flexible at dealing with 3+ infantry. But it falls off against FNP, multi wound, and the only vehicles people really use. In 1st it was the best weapon because it was so widely applicable, but the points have changed and allowed weight of lascannons and multi meltas to show up, taking that generalist role. And since plasma is really their only draw, it's passed up in favour of the more generalist options.

I get you - when you have no way of lure out that Shooting reactions, they're in danger. But i think that is also a good point for them! Most reactions are saved to counter the fire of the "big guns" (Meltas, Lascannons,...), because they either don't allow any kind of save(armor/FnP), or are so devestating, that ther would be nothing left after that.

I am fortunate enough to give my lists plenty of "hard hitting" weaponry, so my opponent has to wager, on what he uses his reactions. And as you said, Las/melta beats Plasma in case of strgth., so alot of the time, reactions will not be "wasted" on a plasma-squad, when there are also heavy weapons to be countered.

So i would count that as a kinda form of outriders "inherit protection". =]

 

HSS in 2 units would be 395Pts Because of the "Sarge-Tax". Again, i think they have completely different Targets and are therefore not comparable, be it only, that HSS use up the precious HS-Slots and other Fire Support units don't.

As an allrounder-harassment unit, i think a fast unit that averages 18hits with a potential 9 ap2 wounds has a right to be called valluable - The same, as an immobile HSS averaging 7hits with 6 wounds double str., that uses ups a HS-Slot.

 

You can ofcourse compare them to Skyhunters, no question about that.

There you have more LP but less, higher str. shots. Also Scout/outflank against Deep Strike. Scout being usefull from turn 1, while Deep Strike comes into play starting turn 2 and has to endure Intercept, before being able to shoot themselves. 4 more LP for Skyhunters. Skirmish against heavy.

 

I think they both have their benefits, though if i wanted to field one of them, i'd preffer the quantitative ap2 over the qualitative ap2 firepower - though that reasoning might be biased by my legion choices (SW, IW) ^^

With my Ravens though, i'd opt for the Skyhunters, since i'm usually restricted to 1 HS-Slot and can therefore use the Firepower =]

...although the FA-Slots are very precious to me there xD

[Gorgoff]

17 hours ago, SkimaskMohawk said:

 

They would be if their range didn't give them some inherent protection. Outriders need to get within 12" to have meaningful output, and at that point you're in range of...almost everything in the game when it comes to return fire.

Hmmm that makes me think that they are a cool unit to have for my Alpha Legion.

Edited June 16, 2023 by Gorgoff

[2gud2bbad]

10 hours ago, Gorgoff said:

Hmmm that makes me think that they are a cool unit to have for my Alpha Legion.

Had the same thought. Scout, move up 14“ and blast someone with plasma and whilst out of range for 12“ or out of rapid fire for 24“ weapons.

[Gorgoff]

12 hours ago, 2gud2bbad said:

Had the same thought. Scout, move up 14“ and blast someone with plasma and whilst out of range for 12“ or out of rapid fire for 24“ weapons.

That way the return fire isn't that bad.

I looked at the resin models and... don't like them. Plastic bikes on the other hands seems not very fitting as well. I am open for suggestions. 

[Brother Sutek]

I haven't figured out how to redo my Ravenwing force to be balanced for this edition.  Too many outriders bleed points but there is a need for enough models. Speeders have been better than I thought they'd be. Still grumpy about the cost of attack bikes as I used to field four and now they aren't worth the excessive points.

[Brofist]

They used to be excellent for ZM, but RIP

[Brother Sutek]

They used to be great. I'm trying to get past the past and figure out Ravenwing.  Sadly those are not in the future. 

[Heir of Sigismund]

14 hours ago, Gorgoff said:

That way the return fire isn't that bad.

I looked at the resin models and... don't like them. Plastic bikes on the other hands seems not very fitting as well. I am open for suggestions. 

They will likely get a plastic kit, how many years away it is who knows

[Dont-Be-Haten]

On 6/15/2023 at 8:56 AM, MichaelCarmine said:

And yet, both the HSS and the TSS are played regularly - but not the Outriders...

I feel like it has a lot to do with accessibility, price points, and conversion options.

 

The 30k outriders are very expensive, the 40k variation is more readily available, but you need to 3D print/have access to all those plasma guns ahead of time. And of course you have the purist who don't want 40k models in 30k.

[Gorgoff]

4 minutes ago, Dont-Be-Haten said:

I feel like it has a lot to do with accessibility, price points, and conversion options.

 

The 30k outriders are very expensive, the 40k variation is more readily available, but you need to 3D print/have access to all those plasma guns ahead of time. And of course you have the purist who don't want 40k models in 30k.

You mean the Dunning Krueger meatheads who don't know Jack :cuss: about the different kind of bikes throughout the Heresy and therefore doesn't matter? 

 

I wouldn't care really but I don't think that the thicc GW bikes fitninto a Alpha Legion army. 

[Brother Sutek]

My problem is I like a lot of the look of the 30k bikes but I own over 30 of the 40k one due to playing Ravenwing since 2nd edition! 

[Dont-Be-Haten]

I personally have no problem with 40k bikes in 30k. Even the legs ca. Easily be converted with rivets if need be. 

 

I'm here for it. I've got quite a few bikes myself, and I'm always down for more options.

 

As long as it looks good thematically, no one should care.

[Gorgoff]

17 hours ago, Brother Sutek said:

My problem is I like a lot of the look of the 30k bikes but I own over 30 of the 40k one due to playing Ravenwing since 2nd edition! 

I think for DA it is rather fitting to have these bulky bikes. For me they aren't sophisticated drivers. More kind of a MC in power armor.  WS or Alpha Legion on the other hand should have more slender looking bikes if you ask me.

[Brother Sutek]

Knights on heavy warhorse vs warriors on light horse? I can agree with that, less so for the Alpha Legion.  The Alpha Legion takes whatever it needs. I'm just grateful that I didn't convert any attack bikes into 30k versions. The high cost of bikes IRL put that idea on the discard pile. I'd like to have a few but yikes! I started to convert the 40k bikes to plasma with the Ravenwing plasma guns years ago. Another project life has put on hold.