Outriders: A worthy unit?

[The Unseen]

If you use the Legion Panoptica community rules, it gives regular bikes 2 wounds, Battle-Hardened (1), and Skilled Rider, and doesn't change their points. They are just horrifically brittle without some buffs, and their damage output isn't so spectacular that it makes up for it. Needing to be very very close to their target but also being bad in melee is another concern. Similar problems plague the TSS, though at least they get in a rhino and aren't nearly as brittle.

[Gorgoff]

5 hours ago, The Unseen said:

If you use the Legion Panoptica community rules, it gives regular bikes 2 wounds, Battle-Hardened (1), and Skilled Rider, and doesn't change their points. They are just horrifically brittle without some buffs, and their damage output isn't so spectacular that it makes up for it. Needing to be very very close to their target but also being bad in melee is another concern. Similar problems plague the TSS, though at least they get in a rhino and aren't nearly as brittle.

5 TSS with tiffy armour on the Sarge, Plasma Guns and Rhino without upgrades cost 180 and 5 outriders with tiffy and plasma cost 185.

I think Outrider are better because they are faster and therefore strike where you want them to strike. Plus you can give any rider a shotgun which is way cooler because of Terminator 2 and add more shots because of Fire protocoll 2. 

Edited June 20, 2023 by Gorgoff
Of...if... damn it

[The Unseen]

I mean, that's comparing the unit to plasma TSS, which... aren't good.

So being better still doesn't mean they're good.

5 plasma guns in rapid fire range kill... 1 Terminator on average.

Twin-Linking them pushes it all the way into the lofty heights of... 1 and 1/2 Terminator. Though more consistent with the protection against whiffing on the hits.

 

Paying nearly 200 pts to kill ~40 is just really bad, especially when defensively they themselves are just 5 3+ save bodies, and getting shrouded requires them to not shoot. And anything they get in range of will easily beat them in melee if not kill them outright the following turn, to say nothing of reactions.

They do kill 3-4 3+ models without an invuln, but that still isn't fantastic

 

When community rules more than double a units durability without raising the points and they don't become an issue, that says a lot.

At 2 Wounds, battle hardened, and skilled rider, they do have a role, durable harassment unit. As is they're a glass pea-shooter.

[dickyelsdon]

53 minutes ago, Gorgoff said:

5 TSS with tiffy armour on the Sarge, Plasma Guns and Rhino without upgrades cost 180 and 5 outriders with tiffy and plasma cost 185.

I think Outrider are better because they are faster and therefore strike where you want them to strike. Plus you can give any rider a shotgun which is way cooler because if Terminator 2 and add more shots because of Fire protocoll 2. 

 

And dont forget, Firing Protocols (2) so can fire the shotgun (12" Assault 2) in addition to the plasma, tho at same target obvs.  Skirmish also boosts cover saves +1 so starts getting difficult to shift these things. 

[dickyelsdon]

8 minutes ago, The Unseen said:

Paying nearly 200 pts to kill ~40 is just really bad, especially when defensively they themselves are just 5 3+ save bodies, and getting shrouded requires them to not shoot. And anything they get in range of will easily beat them in melee if not kill them outright the following turn, to say nothing of reactions.

They do kill 3-4 3+ models without an invuln, but that still isn't fantastic

 

200 pts tacticals have the same damage capability T1, but they cant do anything to tanks or contemptors.  I doubt 200pts of Terminators could kill anything T1 or T2 unless they have a transport or something charges them.  These units have other roles pts and kill damage alone cant account for.  Just like bikes.  Clearly in a points or slot limited force there are other things you probably want to take. But I think these still have some utility. Could they be better? sure. But then they would be everywhere like LSS and Sky-hunters.

[Gorgoff]

4 hours ago, The Unseen said:

I mean, that's comparing the unit to plasma TSS, which... aren't good.

So being better still doesn't mean they're good.

5 plasma guns in rapid fire range kill... 1 Terminator on average.

Twin-Linking them pushes it all the way into the lofty heights of... 1 and 1/2 Terminator. Though more consistent with the protection against whiffing on the hits.

 

Don't shoot terminators then.

Dreadnoughts and other "monsters" would be my main target plus vehicles in the side/ rear armour. 12" scout re-deployment plus 14" movement is good for hunting rapier squads as well. Go for stuff you usually can't get your hand on turn one.

4 hours ago, The Unseen said:

Paying nearly 200 pts to kill ~40 is just really bad, especially when defensively they themselves are just 5 3+ save bodies, and getting shrouded requires them to not shoot. And anything they get in range of will easily beat them in melee if not kill them outright the following turn, to say nothing of reactions.

They do kill 3-4 3+ models without an invuln, but that still isn't fantastic

 

That depends entirely on what those models were.

4 hours ago, The Unseen said:

When community rules more than double a units durability without raising the points and they don't become an issue, that says a lot.

At 2 Wounds, battle hardened, and skilled rider, they do have a role, durable harassment unit. As is they're a glass pea-shooter.

Yes sure, community rules are often better than GW rules but since I don't know any player in person who actually uses the Panoptica rules it doesn't matter to me.

4 hours ago, dickyelsdon said:

 

And dont forget, Firing Protocols (2) so can fire the shotgun (12" Assault 2) in addition to the plasma, tho at same target obvs.  Skirmish also boosts cover saves +1 so starts getting difficult to shift these things. 

That was my idea, yes.

CHLIKK-CHLAKK BOOM MF and all that. ;)

3 hours ago, dickyelsdon said:

 

200 pts tacticals have the same damage capability T1, but they cant do anything to tanks or contemptors.  I doubt 200pts of Terminators could kill anything T1 or T2 unless they have a transport or something charges them.  These units have other roles pts and kill damage alone cant account for.  Just like bikes.  Clearly in a points or slot limited force there are other things you probably want to take. But I think these still have some utility. Could they be better? sure. But then they would be everywhere like LSS and Sky-hunters.

Precisely. 

 

Edited June 20, 2023 by Gorgoff

[RoadRunna]

On 6/20/2023 at 7:35 PM, dickyelsdon said:

 

And dont forget, Firing Protocols (2) so can fire the shotgun (12" Assault 2) in addition to the plasma, tho at same target obvs.  Skirmish also boosts cover saves +1 so starts getting difficult to shift these things. 

So you think that the swap out of the chainsword for the free shotgun is worth it?

[Gorgoff]

On 6/23/2023 at 5:17 AM, RoadRunna said:

So you think that the swap out of the chainsword for the free shotgun is worth it?

They wouldn't last long in cc with or without the chainswords. Make them shootier instead.

[dickyelsdon]

On 6/23/2023 at 4:17 AM, RoadRunna said:

So you think that the swap out of the chainsword for the free shotgun is worth it?

 

Getting 5 models in the perfect range to get the shots in but keeping them in cover or out of line of sight could be a challenge, so id want to maximize their impact. Shotguns are good for the chance of pinning but id hope the plasma would cause enough damage that the remaining pinning was moot, so maybe chainswords to finish off the unit would be better.  They have hit and run which gives a lot of extra mobility if you are confident they will survive a combat.

 

I will be adding these to my ultramarines so shooting is typically the focus, not much else will be charging early game so my opponent will usually have a reaction waiting for them.

Against my usual opponents id be using these as a distraction unit to draw fire I dont want on other units.  I cant think of many situations where charging would have gone well for them early game.

 

 

 

 

Edited June 26, 2023 by dickyelsdon

[Gorgoff]

50 minutes ago, dickyelsdon said:

 

Getting 5 models in the perfect range to get the shots in but keeping them in cover or out of line of sight could be a challenge, so id want to maximize their impact. Shotguns are good for the chance of pinning but id hope the plasma would cause enough damage that the remaining pinning was moot, so maybe chainswords to finish off the unit would be better.  They have hit and run which gives a lot of extra mobility if you are confident they will survive a combat.

 

I will be adding these to my ultramarines so shooting is typically the focus, not much else will be charging early game so my opponent will usually have a reaction waiting for them.

Against my usual opponents id be using these as a distraction unit to draw fire I dont want on other units.  I cant think of many situations where charging would have gone well for them early game.

 

 

 

 

First turn they can't charge anyways because you let them scout to get em where they need to be. Hence my shotgun advice. But chainswords are nice as well. Probably worth the try.

They doesn't have pinning by the way but concussive (1). 

[dickyelsdon]

22 minutes ago, Gorgoff said:

First turn they can't charge anyways because you let them scout to get em where they need to be. Hence my shotgun advice. But chainswords are nice as well. Probably worth the try.

They doesn't have pinning by the way but concussive (1). 

 

Thanks for the correction. Didnt have my book to hand and mis-remembered what they did.  Concussive not much use then potentially.

 

So its  Assault 2  vs pistol+sword for Pistol 1 and +1A in combat (with shred cos chainsword).  On pure stats the pistol and sword is better, but it also means you are in combat so giving opponent chance to cause wounds.

[MichaelCarmine]

1 hour ago, dickyelsdon said:

 

Thanks for the correction. Didnt have my book to hand and mis-remembered what they did.  Concussive not much use then potentially.

 

So its  Assault 2  vs pistol+sword for Pistol 1 and +1A in combat (with shred cos chainsword).  On pure stats the pistol and sword is better, but it also means you are in combat so giving opponent chance to cause wounds.

Not only that, but they'd also possibly eat another reaction (schooting attack).

 

Also depends entirely on the Legion they're with - with wolves, for example, they ge +1 WS on the charge + their build in Hit&Run, so chainswords/Power Weapons could be worth it, since the rest of the army is also likely to charge something. So it's likely, that they would get into CC "unscathed".  =]

[Brofist]

The cheap as chips hand flamer on every bike is not to be ignored imo. Again, in ZM this shined because it was closer quarters and it hit like a regular flamer, but its so cheap its hard not to consider in open games. Shotguns, hand flamers, and special weapons.... mmm, tasty

[Gorgoff]

On 6/26/2023 at 1:47 PM, MichaelCarmine said:

Also depends entirely on the Legion they're with - with wolves, for example, they ge +1 WS on the charge + their build in Hit&Run, so chainswords/Power Weapons could be worth it, since the rest of the army is also likely to charge something. So it's likely, that they would get into CC "unscathed".  =]

Precisely. 

BA, NL and WE all could get more Bang for their Buck as well if they use them for their different CC shenanigans. 

And it is another example of inconsistent writing or bad balancing. 

Vlka Fenryka can exchange their chainswords for fenris axes 2 points apiece and get S5 and possible +1 A if they're with more than one enemy in CC. Thinking of the bigger size of the outriders bases it is at least possible. 

World Eaters on the other hands get chainaxes for free (S5,Shred) and have +1A base. ;)

 

Edited July 2, 2023 by Gorgoff
Added an important 'as well'

[Agramar_The_Luna_Wolf]

On 7/2/2023 at 2:32 PM, Gorgoff said:

Precisely. 

BA, NL and WE all could get more Bang for their Buck as well if they use them for their different CC shenanigans. 

And it is another example of inconsistent writing or bad balancing. 

Vlka Fenryka can exchange their chainswords for fenris axes 2 points apiece and get S5 and possible +1 A if they're with more than one enemy in CC. Thinking of the bigger size of the outriders bases it is at least possible. 

World Eaters on the other hands get chainaxes for free (S5,Shred) and have +1A base. ;)

 

And what about SoH?

[Squark]

On 6/22/2023 at 10:17 PM, RoadRunna said:

So you think that the swap out of the chainsword for the free shotgun is worth it?

Is this a legion specific thing, or a fan change? I got home to my rulebooks and now see that this is a default choice. I guess battlescribe needs an update.

Edited July 4, 2023 by Squark