Unit Grades, Index 40k Sisters of Battle

[Blurf]

4 hours ago, Lemondish said:

Bring what you'd like and give it a shot. The doom and gloom will subside in time.

I mean, always bring what you want. It's your hobby time, do whatever.

 

That said, it's not doom and gloom. It's an accurate assessment of reality. It will subside, because less people will be less games with the army.

[Emperor Ming]

130pts for 5t3 wounds is just a joke

 

Not touching sisters with a barge pole unless they get some changes. 

 

With death guard being worst chaos index, sisters must be worst imperial one

[Montford]

8 hours ago, Blurf said:

That's a really bad idea. Retributors are 130pts, 5Ws, and overwatch only hits on 6s. Even for casual, Crusade style games, Heavy Bolters are pretty much useless on them.

Heavy Flamers have a small niche as an overwatch threat in a rhino, but that's not really worth 130pts either.

Unfortunately, a combination of being a bad index and being stuck on powerlevels now, means that we really can't afford to take silly builds like Heavy Bolter rets, without risking making the game so one sided your opponent feels bad for you.

 

In 10th 5 Retributors with HBs and 2 Cherubs are only 10 points more than they were in 9th. With so many points  being lower in 10th that cost is easily absorbed. Heavy bolters have baked in exploding 6s, good range to hit what needs hitting and are marine killers with AP -2. (Overwatch is just a secondary goal if the opportunity presents itself to fire 12 heavy bolter shots if no better Unit is within 24" to fire).  HB Rets also tend to not be high on my opponent's targeting list so they tend last longer.

[Progenitor]

While there are lots I'm not sure about in the brave new world of 10th with my Sisters, I also think that unless you're playing bleeding edge comp meta that there's more play than people are giving things credit for. Yes, MM Rets are probably the only ones you really want to spend 130pts on, even with their nerf to range we're very reliant on MM to have any damage to heavy armour. 

 

I fully understand a lot of people are upset with the new edition because of this points debacle, and it is a debacle because it feels like a bait and switch, I think there's still fun to be had with the game and I'll give it a go. I'm lucky that we like matched play with our group but none of us are meta chasing or even go for full comp builds. 

[Blurf]

On 6/20/2023 at 6:23 AM, Progenitor said:

While there are lots I'm not sure about in the brave new world of 10th with my Sisters, I also think that unless you're playing bleeding edge comp meta that there's more play than people are giving things credit for. Yes, MM Rets are probably the only ones you really want to spend 130pts on, even with their nerf to range we're very reliant on MM to have any damage to heavy armour. 

 

I fully understand a lot of people are upset with the new edition because of this points debacle, and it is a debacle because it feels like a bait and switch, I think there's still fun to be had with the game and I'll give it a go. I'm lucky that we like matched play with our group but none of us are meta chasing or even go for full comp builds. 

If nothing else, we're much better off than Deathguard are. At least we're also not 4" move.

[Blurf]

On 6/14/2023 at 2:41 PM, Blurf said:

Canoness: F. Only attaches to BSS/Sacresants. Nothing else about her datasheet matters. Not good.

Palantine: C+ At least she attaches to Novitiates. gives Lethal Hits and scout and lets you Cycle MD.  Decent enough body.

Morvenn: B+ Makes Paragons go Godmode. If Paragons were good, she'd be an A. Hopefully MUCH cheaper.

Celestine: B+ Lost A LOT of stats, but hopefully attach to Zephyrim+ a points drop+Free tears makes her still solid. New FNP makes the backup dancers weird.

Junith: A. Basically mandatory. 1CP per turn is huge. Only attaches to terrible BSS and terrible Sacresants though. Hopefully cheap.

Missionary: C Sustained hits is worse than Lethal Hits for Novitiates. No reason to take over Palatine. Especially because Novitiates already reroll. Okay on Arcos.

Stern: F Doesn't do anything.

Aestrid: F. Devastating wounds on MELEE WEAPONS ONLY, can only attach to 1 Melee unit. TRASH. Miracle dice ability might get her hooked to rets if she's exactly 4 points.

Imagifier: F. Only attaches to BSS if she attaches with another character. Useless unless rets have literally nothing else.

Hospitaller: F. FNP and Heal mean nothing when it can only attach to BSS unless it's the only character.

Dogmata: F. Crap.

Dialogus: C. Finally SOMETHING that attaches to something decent with a usable buff! Staple her to a ret squad and call it a day.

Preacher: C-. +1 to wound Arcos and Novitiates. If he could double attach, he'd be a C+

Novitiates: C. Better than BSS at least. Native rerolls are nice. Probably not worth it to bring any of the extras unless they're free.

Paragons: C+. Only good if Morvenn attaches. 4+ invul is nice?

Repentia: C+. Full rerolls are nice. Too bad no character buffs and only 2 attacks each. Why no devastating wounds? Stupid.

Seraphim: C-. Has some moderate utility as a deepstrike objective taker with Handflamers. That's about it though.

Zephyrim: C, only 3 attacks, only damage 1, only Celestine can attach, only unit buff is +1S on charge. Mid. At least a good target for the strat.

Rets: C. Cherubs are gone (no one cares about the dice) Reroll wounds is mid. Decent out of Rhinos or Immos. Dominions make them look better than they are.

Mortifiers: C-. Good if cheap.

Penitent Engine: C-. Good if Cheap.

Exorcist: B+. Aura DOES NOT matter, but D6+2 S10 shots ignoring LoS, Cover, and the penalty for LoS is huge.

Castigator: A-. Predictably, the absolute best unit in the army. Because no one had the old one. The Autocannon are arguably our best form of anti-tank.

Rhino B+: Maybe makes Dominions somewhat useful? Doubt it.

Immolator: B+. Probably our most viable anti-tank with Rets. The combat squad ability is cute, but not useful. Dominions end up with 5 useless models, BSS have to be on the board for their miracle dice ability, Novitiates want to be in large units.

Arcos: C. Good at doing something the rest of the army is already decent at. Can't see a real need for them.

Reassessing my grades after points+testing feedback.

BSS: C. Not as bad as I thought. Unlimited free upgrades makes them merely very mid.

Dominions: F. Even worse than I thought. Insanely overpriced. Like...CRAZILY too expensive.

Sacresants: F. Even worse than I thought. Crazy overpriced.

Triumph: A-. It's a very centralizing unit. Once you bring it, your list is a triumph list. For better or worse.

Canoness: Still F. Still bad.

Palatine: Still C+. Wish she was cheaper.

Morvenn: Still B+ wish Paragons were cheaper.

Celestine: Still B+ but a strong B+. Seraphim being a viable home was unexpected.

Junith: Downgraded to B-. 100pts is just too expensive. If Celestians were good, I'd say A-. But they are not.

Missionary: Still C. Still not terrible. Just awkward. Gives two great buffs but...the two best units he can attach to already have one or the other.

Stern: Upgraded to B. Cheap Lone Operative is actually very strong. Just take a Vindicare though.

Aestrid: F-. Even more crap than I thought she would be. 70pts. Someone at GW is HIGH.

Imagifier: Upgraded to D. Has some utility in Triumph or 'Feed Me Dice' lists.

Hospitaller: Upgraded to D-. Still really bad, but heals the Triumph maybe?

Dogmata: Even crappier with points. F-

Dialogus: Still a C. Her Retributor combo has the potential to be very strong, they just have to fix our shooting infantry first.

Preacher: C-. Same.

Novitiates: Downgraded to a C-. Turns out, their upgrades being free, somehow makes them worse.

Paragons: C+ still. They're way too expensive at 240. Even Morvenn's squad isn't necessarily worth that.

Repentia: Downgraded to C-. Overwatch :cuss:s them super hard.

Seraphim: Upgrade to A-. S4 Handflamers are killer for overwatch, they're cheap, they're fast, they move block, they can shoot and go grab objectives. They'd be an A if Inferno pistols were still D6 damage.

Zephyrim: Still C. Still good with Celestine.

Rets: C-. Overwatch :cuss:s them. Also very overpriced. Devastator marines are 10pts cheaper.

Morties: C+ Overwatch makes them actually pretty scary (and makes the Heavy Bolter builds feel bad). Wish they were cheaper.

Penitent Engines: C+ Same as Morties+ Run and Charge. At least it only had one shooting weapon.

Exorcist: B+. Feeding them 6s with the Triumph is probably our best strat.

Castigator: Downgraded to B. Overpriced, unfortunately.

Rhino: B+. Put some BSS or Rets in it for the +1. Still a rhino. Still solid.

Immolator: Still B+. Immolation flamer actually a REAL consideration with how good overwatch is. Wish it was 10-20pts cheaper though.

Arcos: C. Output is even better than I thought, but suffers from Overwatch.

[Emperor Ming]

Some nice info there Blurf

 

I refuse to even use them atm, even with free gear, I don't wanna pay for max squads were 5 more gals are just bolters, its just awful

 

Hopefully gw takes some action to look at sisters, Dg and admech sooner rather than later

[ThePenitentOne]

I haven't playtested anything yet, and I do agree that Sisters got the short end of the stick compared to some other factions... But I think that you have to evaluate effectiveness by looking at combinations. I feel like you want a BSS + Canoness + Imagifier camping as many objectives as possibly to farm MD, and you want them there as fast as you can get them there. If they die, they die- it feeds the MD pool and draws fire away from other targets. I suspect the 4+ invulnerable on the unit from the Imagifier will makes them a lot harder to shift, which should allow you to take better advantage of Blood of Martyrs. I like Plasma + Power weapon + Rod of Office on the canoness to maintain the CP pool- this girls will get plenty of opportunities to Rejoice the Fallen, so you'll need al the CP you can get. These also come in handy if your opponent has a lot of precision and snipes your characters- just resurrect them.

 

As for Doms, I don't know; combat squading with an Immolator and bringing a Palatine seems like it could be alright. If the Immo hits the target you want the Doms to nuke, you're getting rerolls on wounds; the 6" scout means you might be able to get to Melta range without having to rely on advancing so that you can disembark and fire, and the Palatine is making the attacks Lethal. What to do with the other five Doms IS a legit question; I'd probably leave them on foot and use their scout to help them move on objectives. If they die while within 12" of the Imagifiers attached to the BSS you get to reroll the Md they generate- it's not that big a deal, but it's a nice little bonus on top of their primary purpose of giving 4+ Invuls to your CP farm. You can use them to screen a charge on the BSS or divide enemy fire.

 

The whole is greater than the sum of its parts. I know that's true of all factions, and as I said, I'm not arguing Sisters are great. Giving Antivehicle to Melta would go a long, long way. Giving melta 6" of extra range AND Antivehicle might almost go the distance. Repentia need help. The Bloody Rose detachment when it comes with the dex will harden up the Rentia I think.

 

This thread reminds me that I need to theory craft a bit more.

 

 

 

 

[Blurf]

Personally, I see the imagifier's 4++ to be difficult to get value out of. AP is down across the board and backline infantry will basically always have cover, so the 4++ has limited utility. Your opponent would need to be shooting AP-2 Ignores cover or AP-3 to get value hitting the invul.

Her reroll MD aura is nice but the hospitaller is a better pure defense pick. 

 

And I just would never take a canoness on a foot squad period. The chances of getting a decent rejoice the fallen are almost nill. I'd say she's okay with BSS in an Immo or Rhino though.

 

Dominions have the big problem that they have to get into flamer range. Retributors can at least camp out at 18" and dodge overwatch. Also, because you can disembark after movement now, scout is kind of mediocre on a shooting unit. Even over just regular BSS, they only get 1 more melta shot and the offshoot unit doesn't generate dice on its own. If they drop 20-30pts, I'd consider them. At 130, they're just too expensive. 

 

There's play in the army. We're definitely top of the heap of the Bad Times Quadrafecta (Admech, Deathguard, Votann, Us), we just have to be incredibly efficient. We don't have space for situational or 'tech choice' units. Personally, I think our best list is 3 Exorcists and the triumph backed up by 1430pts of MSU objective holders

[Lemondish]

Meh, I've played extremely inefficient Sisters since the relaunch (I hated everything about BR), so why bother changing now

 

I'll continue doing some mechanized infantry stuff to see how effective Scout in Immolators and Rhinos can be. So far the findings are "it depends". If nothing else, the 5 left over Dominions give the RetRhinos some extra speed, too. It's actually kinda fun to be driving around firing 4 melta shots out of a Rhino lol

[MoshJason]

I play sisters because I think they are cool.

 

Do I wish BSS squads could a) be taken in squads of 5, and b) Be taken in squads of 20 again? Yes. 

Do I think that there's some gank and jank in the index? Yeah, 100%. Retributors need to be cheaper than Devastator marines. That said, is it going to stop me playing them? Nope. I'm going to take my Zephyrim, and am going to find ways to get them to work. Even if it means I have to build even more Zephyrim. 

[9x19 Parabellum]

Me too Lemondish.  I didn't dip into the Bloody Rose meta lists at all during 9th. I was big on Argent Shroud and Ebon Chalice.  I'm also the only person I know to actually have AND PLAY the Triumph prior to 10th edition.  See here for proof:

 

 

I'm hoping Paragon warsuits come down.  They actually get stuff done with Morven Vahl, and she's priced well at 135.  Why they are costed at 80 ppm (an assault terminator is one less T and half the price-I get it, they have shooting...but they dont have 40 points worth of shooting).

 

I also don't think Aestred Thurga is an F-.  She's got some purpose/synergy with Sacresancts, giving them Devastating Wounds and Recount the Deeds.  She's overcosted at 70 points, but she at least has a purpose there.

[MoshJason]

Lol I started Bloody Rose in Index 8th - I switched from OoML because my models didn't show up well in photographs, and I kept forgetting about squads that were hidden away in ruins, because the black armor would blend in with the ruins. I also used to run mass Celestians, because I loved them. My army is almost entirely metal, and my celestians were painted gold with red trim, since they were my elite units. I modeled them with Bayonets, and they performed... fine ? 

 

I miss them already :(

 

That said, I'm working on painting up more Zephyrim, and I'm going to use units that I find fun, and if we're not great this edition, that's fine. I no longer will have to get the "Well, your army is the best! Your a meta chaser!" kind of attitude from other people. That said, I'm looking forward to getting my old 20 lb Exorcists on the table again.

[Lemondish]

29 minutes ago, MoshJason said:

I'm going to use units that I find fun, and if we're not great this edition, that's fine.

 

Couldn't agree more.

 

I'm really leaning into mechanized infantry early, but I'm not sure if I'm subconsciously using this as an excuse to buy more Sisters tanks.

[Meister Eisenfaust]

Well i would like to say, i like dominions. Played them like a Buffoon.
Still 265P for them with a Palantine and Rhino is quite expensive. 
Jet they give melters from inside. 

I wil ltry some on foot with Stormbolters - that looks quite ok to me with leathel hits. And do not compare them to desolaters, they are jsut way to cheap xD

 

 

[Blurf]

On 6/25/2023 at 11:47 AM, MoshJason said:

Lol I started Bloody Rose in Index 8th - I switched from OoML because my models didn't show up well in photographs, and I kept forgetting about squads that were hidden away in ruins, because the black armor would blend in with the ruins. I also used to run mass Celestians, because I loved them. My army is almost entirely metal, and my celestians were painted gold with red trim, since they were my elite units. I modeled them with Bayonets, and they performed... fine ? 

 

I miss them already :(

 

That said, I'm working on painting up more Zephyrim, and I'm going to use units that I find fun, and if we're not great this edition, that's fine. I no longer will have to get the "Well, your army is the best! Your a meta chaser!" kind of attitude from other people. That said, I'm looking forward to getting my old 20 lb Exorcists on the table again.

I mean...this thread is is about competitive unit grading so 'I'll just play whatever' isn't really on topic.

[Blurf]

On 6/24/2023 at 7:58 PM, 9x19 Parabellum said:

I also don't think Aestred Thurga is an F-.  She's got some purpose/synergy with Sacresancts, giving them Devastating Wounds and Recount the Deeds.  She's overcosted at 70 points, but she at least has a purpose there.

The problem is that A. Sacresants are awful and B. They don't have enough attacks or do enough damage for Devastating wounds to matter. A unit of 10 Sacresants would only do 4 mortal wounds in a round of combat and lack the survivability to get more than that.

[Lemondish]

20 minutes ago, Blurf said:

The problem is that A. Sacresants are awful and B. They don't have enough attacks or do enough damage for Devastating wounds to matter. A unit of 10 Sacresants would only do 4 mortal wounds in a round of combat and lack the survivability to get more than that.

 

But it does seem like the best way to get the most out of the unit.

 

As you said, they're bad. But, you also said that's the case for a majority of the army, so there's not enough effective choices to make and like zero opportunity cost in that case. When the choices are bad unit, or other bad unit, then finding ways to get the most out of each is the only way to proceed, even if it isn't all that effective.

 

But I suppose if the thread must be on topic to your unit grades, then there's not much else to chat about lol

Edited June 26, 2023 by Lemondish

[MoshJason]

44 minutes ago, Blurf said:

I mean...this thread is is about competitive unit grading so 'I'll just play whatever' isn't really on topic.

That's not really what I'm saying?

 

I'm saying - if everything about our army is overcosted, and there very few good choices - find what you like and make peace with the fact that we're not going to be fighting on par with top tables? Figure out what you like, and how to make it work.

 

Like, I like Zephyrim, and they are one of our better units, so I'm using Zephyrim. Exorcists are better than 9th, so we can use them again. Battle Sisters might be bad, but they have a useful purpose.

 

Like, Aestrad Thurga isn't great, at first right? She's overcosted. But if we take, say.

10 Battle Sisters + Triumph

Celestian Sacresants and AEstrad, we can use as many sixes as we've got to try and push through mortal wounds. Is it great? No, but I think there's a build, and not even a bad one, where we use lots of Battle Sisters and the Triumph to get as many Miracle  Dice as we can, take the enhancement to reroll poor miracle dice, and then have a few Key Units that can take advantage of them.

 

Our Multimelta Rets are wildly overcosted. But if we have a lot of 3's, 4's, 5's and Sixes, we can jump out of an immolator, let it shoot, and then get +1 to wounds - use the Triumph to get as many of those shots guaranteed to wound, or if you are confident on wounds, to make sure that they do max damage. Eventually I might run a simulation on that to see whens the best time to use them. 

 

I think there's also a Heavy Armor Build for us - where you take 3 Castigators and 3 Exorcists, maybe a squad of Paragons with the High Abbess. 

 

I think we'll end up having a good variety in decent lists, because honestly, we don't have anything in our index that's a "must take" and we don't have anything that's an absolute "This is a waste of points". After all, Dominions are only slightly more expensive than BSS, have Scout, and have more special weapons. So while prolly our "worst" unit, they aren't too different from Battle Sisters. 

 

Honestly, I don't really like our "Get wounded to do better!" mechanic, and I think we should be 10-20% cheaper across the board, but I think there's some really dangerous moments that will pop up and infuriate our opponents. +1 To hit on a wounded vehicle means our Castigators hit on 2's. +1 to wound means they are wounding other T10 models on 4's/3's depending, and are wounding Terminators/Custodes on 2's with their Autocannons. Exorcists getting +1 to hit, means they are ignoring the -1 to hit for indirect fire, and +1 to wound makes them punch a little harder. I think having our basic sister squads hitting on 2's is going to shock some people, especially if all our BSS are carrying Condemnor Boltgun, Meltagun, MultiMelta/Meltagun as those upgrades are free, and then we can use the Miracle dice to make sure that those do max/near max damage when they do hit 

Edited June 26, 2023 by MoshJason