How important are challenges?

[Valkyrion]

Next weekend I'm showing a friend how to play and was mulling over which 'advanced' rules to leave out - psykers, flyers, super heavies and so on, and I came to challenges.

I can't think of a single instance where a challenge has been a deciding moment in any of my games, but I am a very small sample size so I thought I'd throw it out there - does this ruleset need a challenge system? Would the game be diminished by its removal? Have I just had an uncommon run of games where they've seemed unimportant and the wider community has a much different experience of it?

 

What do you think?

[Starlight_Wolf]

Personal experience I'd say they can be pretty important, partly due to the ability to remove a warlord and subsequently an additional reaction in X phase. It also allows you to pick out that important model in a bigger squad, or remove their damage potential if the back down.

 

I may be an outlier as I have a vendetta to go hunting Warlords and inevitably challenge at least one character per game, but also have the tendency to tank shock any given unit once my rhinos are empty (Partly due to SoH's traits, partly because it has been very beneficial in some games)

[Noserenda]

Personally i think the game would only be improved by removing them, limit it to a special rule for champions and relevant special characters, or just give them precise attacks...

[HeinzD]

Personally, i really like challenges, they can be pretty fun and can really make combat more interesting.

Challenges can be pretty impactful in some instances and shift how the combat is handled, but i think it doesnt really hurt to leave it out, especially for new players challenges are always a bit confusing, might make combat a bit more "beginner friendly".

So unless one of you plays emperors children, just leave it out, sure. 

 

[Valkyrion]

I think challenges were introduced in 6th ed 40k - can anyone remind me what happened in 5th and 4th? Were independent characters just part of the unit that fought using the normal rules for initiative and what not? 

 

[bushman101]

If you teach the game, I'd leave out challenges.

 

That being said, challenges can be super important if you build for them, generally if you're playing a melee army. It's basically Sniping up close

[Starlight_Wolf]

2 hours ago, Valkyrion said:

I think challenges were introduced in 6th ed 40k - can anyone remind me what happened in 5th and 4th? Were independent characters just part of the unit that fought using the normal rules for initiative and what not? 

 

 

Can't speak for 4th, but in 5th everything fought at initiative, so frequently leaders did attacks first (unless using initiative 1 weapons), wounds got allocated, and so on until all the combats were resolved. I don't believe there was a specific way to pick out independent characters (might've been snipers, but I think that came in 6th with the introduction of 'look out sir') 

[Ripper.McGuirl]

For learning the game, I'd say you could probably leave them off. Once you get going, they are actually pretty pivotal and can change things pretty quickly. Also, they are one of the secondaries in Zone Mortalis games, so they obviously take on more importance there.

 

[Noserenda]

2 hours ago, Starlight_Wolf said:

 

Can't speak for 4th, but in 5th everything fought at initiative, so frequently leaders did attacks first (unless using initiative 1 weapons), wounds got allocated, and so on until all the combats were resolved. I don't believe there was a specific way to pick out independent characters (might've been snipers, but I think that came in 6th with the introduction of 'look out sir') 

Pretty much this, though in some edition(s) who could just target independent characters as units, i distinctly recall a warwalker kicking an inquisitor in the face and ID'ing him lol

[SkimaskMohawk]

8 hours ago, Valkyrion said:

I think challenges were introduced in 6th ed 40k - can anyone remind me what happened in 5th and 4th? Were independent characters just part of the unit that fought using the normal rules for initiative and what not? 

 

 

In 4th and 5th they could be targeted like a separate unit, and were often the victims of embedded power fists just targetting them if you moved characters into engagement range of those models. One of the upsides of retinues like command squads was that didn't happen. 

 

 

[dickyelsdon]

Perhaps if challenges were replaced by some sort of precision shot mechanic, where the attacking model could focus their attacks on one target, with better fighters being better at it than others.  Would let primarchs almost ignore line troops (precision on 2+?) until they had killed who they wanted to, and sergeants could get the odd swing (precision on 6+?) onto an opposing sergeant or IC in a swirling melee.  Of course this would still require you to place your charge to get the models within range of attacks etc.

Edited June 16, 2023 by dickyelsdon

[Cactus]

I think it's more relevant thematically for 30k than 40k. The legions and their primarchs are Bronze Age heroes with some very Bronze Age strategies and personalities. They need to be able to settle old scores in single combat or you lose some of the essential flavour. 40k always had an element of this but the Great Crusade and Heresy really lean into it.

 

That said, it's a fiddly rule and with or without challenges the appropriately equipped beatstick character will most likely come out on top. Leaving them out for a few games would be fine. Maybe keep an eye out for moments where being able to challenge a character and kill them / stop them blending the enemy rank and file / turn off their buff etc. could have made a difference.