Errors in the Index

[Valerian]

What are the actual errors that y'all have noticed in the Index?  I figure we ought to consolidate a list and provide feedback to GW so they can make an update.

 

• The one that is most obvious is the Death from the Warp stratagem (page 3) that is activated in the Movement phase and has an effect that cannot be used in that phase.
• The other one that may or may not be intentional is Grand Master's Master Strategist ability (page 11) that grants a once per battle ability that is just like the one a Space Marine Captain can use once per battle round (Rites of Battle).
• The Interceptor Squad is the only unit with no Psychic ability - seems like something was forgotten here.
• The Grand Master in Nemesis Dreadknight has the same BS and WS across all weapon profiles as the regular Nemesis Dreadknight.  As a Grand Master, he should be BS 2+ and WS 2+ for all melee weapons except the Nemesis daemon greathammer, which would be WS 3+.
• Likewise, the Grey Knights Venerable Dreadnought has the same BS and WS as a regular Space Marine Dreadnought (3+ for all weapons but the Storm bolter), where this units BS and WS should all be 2+.
• The Chaplain does not have the Leader ability.
• The Grey Knights Techmarine has BS 3+, whereas both versions of the Techmarine from the Space Marine Index have BS 2+
   
•  

 

What else have y'all noted?

Edited June 16, 2023 by Valerian
Added the Interceptors and GMNDK issues.

[WAR]

No psychic ability on Interceptors. 

[Holier Than Thou]

The GMNDK WS/BS being the same as the regular NDK. I’m still convinced this is a mistake.

 

And the Venerable Dreadnought WS/BS too, it’s the same as the Space Marine Dreadnought.

[Brother Lunkhead]

Brotherhood Terminator and Paladin Ancients omitted entirely with the exception of Ancient's Banner listed under Wargear Abilities under squad data sheets. This may be intentional but looks so wrong to me

 

Standard Space Marines still have these.

[Sothalor]

It may be intentional, but the lack of an Apothecary option for Paladins feels strikingly bizarre to me. Since their introduction in the 5th edition Codex the Apothecaries have always been associated with Paladins; even their models are essentially Paladins with an arm equipment swap.

[Brother Lunkhead]

34 minutes ago, Sothalor said:

It may be intentional, but the lack of an Apothecary option for Paladins feels strikingly bizarre to me. Since their introduction in the 5th edition Codex the Apothecaries have always been associated with Paladins; even their models are essentially Paladins with an arm equipment swap.

Agreed.... seems very wrong

[Holier Than Thou]

Techmarines - ours has BS 3+, both Marine versions have BS 2+

[Valerian]

Based on the feedback here, the following is the email that I intend to send off to GW in the next day or two:

 

Greetings,

 

I just want to say up front that I appreciate the hard work all of you have been doing to transition to a new edition of the game.  I think everyone understands what a Herculean task that is, especially considering the requirement to redo over 2,000 distinct datasheets for every unit in the game.

 

With that said, it is understandable that a few errors may have slipped through.  I’m writing to you to highlight a few that I, and others, have noticed when reviewing the Grey Knights Index.  Admittedly, some of these points might not be errors, and were intentional choices made by the design team.  If that is the case, then I’d just like to respectfully request that someone take another look at these choices.

 

The points that I’m reasonably sure were unintentional include the following:

 

• The Brotherhood Chaplain does not have the Leader ability on the front of the datasheet, despite the back of the datasheet specifying which units he can be attached to.

• The ‘Death from the Warp’ stratagem is activated in the Movement phase and has an effect that cannot be used in that phase.

• The Grand Master in Nemesis Dreadknight has the same BS and WS across all weapon profiles as the regular Nemesis Dreadknight.  As a Grand Master, he should be as capable in melee and ranged attacks as the standard Grand Master, which would give him a BS 2+ and a WS 2+ for all melee weapons except the Nemesis daemon greathammer, which would be WS 3+.

• The Brotherhood Techmarine has BS 3+ for all of his ranged weapon profiles, whereas the Techmarine and the Primaris Techmarine from the Space Marine Index both have BS 2+ across all ranged weapon profiles.

• Grand Master Voldus has 6 Wounds, while the generic Grand Master has 7 Wounds. 

• The Brotherhood Librarian’s Nemesis force weapon is somehow worse than every other Nemesis force weapon in the Index.  It only has an Armor Penetration of -1, while all of the others in the Index have an Armor Penetration of -2.

 

The following points may or may not have been intentional.  If they were, many Grey Knights players do not understand the reasoning behind these choices:

 

• The Grand Master’s ‘Master Strategist’ ability grants a once per battle ability to target this unit with a stratagem for 0 command points.  The various Space Marine Captains have this exact same ability, called ‘Rites of Battle,’ but it can be used once per battle round, rather than once per battle.  Likewise, the Adeptus Custodes Shield-Captain has the same ability, called ‘Strategic Mastery,’ which also can be used once per battle round, rather than once per battle.  

• The Interceptor Squad is the only Grey Knights unit that does not have a Psychic ability; it seems as if something was forgotten here.

• The Grey Knights Venerable Dreadnought has the same BS, WS, and ability as the regular Dreadnought from the Space Marine Index.  What differentiates a “Venerable” dreadnought from a regular one?  Why was the BS and WS of Venerables reduced from 2+ to 3+ in 10th edition?

 

 

In addition to the points above, there is one other issue to point out:

 

• The Teleport Shunt detachment rule doesn’t do much of anything for the Grey Knights when only a single unit in the whole Index has an Advance and Charge ability (Nemesis Dreadknights), and there are no [Assault] weapons anywhere in the Index.  We do have a single stratagem (‘Death from the Warp’) that interacts with the detachment rule, by granting the [Assault] ability to the ranged weapons equipped by a single unit in the army, but it definitely seems inappropriate to have to spend a command point to get any benefit from your detachment ability for the other 27 unit options in the Index that are not Nemesis Dreadknights.

 

Thank you for taking the time to read and consider this feedback.

 

Best Regards,

 

Edited June 22, 2023 by Valerian
Edited to add Voldus' Wounds and Librarian's NFW issues.

[jimboslice]

The Librarian's Nemesis Force Weapon does not have the same profile as every other Nemesis Force Weapon in the index.  The Librarian's weapon profile is 6 -1 2 instead of 6 -2 2 like every other weapon.

 

I also think GK points are at least 8-10% high based on comparisons to other units.  Our Terminators cost the same as a Custodian Guard which are objectively better.  Guard are tougher, have equivalent shooting dmg output but better melee dmg output.  

 

Redemptor Dreadnought is only 10 points more than a NDK, has more shooting output, can hit just as hard in melee and has a -1 dmg reduction mechanic making it significantly harder to kill. 

 

Kaldor Draigo costs more than Trajann Valoris.  Kaldor's dmg output is admittedly higher, but Trajann is tougher, moves further, has higher leadership and OC.  Kaldor's 1st ability is to give his unit what every Custodes model natively has (4+ FNP against mortals).  His second ability is to add 3" to a charge once per battle but once per battle Trajann can double his melee attacks, have a 2+ invul and a fights first for his unit.  Oh, and Trajann also has a 5+ FNP but costs 10 points less.

 

Chief Librarian Tigurius is 85 points compared to our 110 point Librarian.  Both give their unit a 4+ FNP against psychic but the cheaper librarian also gives a 4+ FNP against mortals.  Both have the same average melee output, both have the same storm bolter (the optional combi bolter does not change average dmg in a significant way so I'll disregard it).  Tigurius does an average of 2.6 unsaved wounds to an intercessor per round with his psychic power.  Our libby does more at 4.7 combined between vortex and purge soul but with a 16.6% chance of doing an average of 3.5 mortal wounds to his unit.  I don't feel like the higher damage output coupled with the likelihood that he'll hurt his own unit once per game is worth 25 points over another librarian that gives his unit a 4+ against mortals, and a free strat every round.  Perhaps I should compare it to the 90 point Librarian in Terminator armor who does less melee and less psychic dmg but makes up for it by giving every weapon (melee and ranged) in his unit sustained hits 1.

 

I know GK have a solid, powerful army rule.  However I'm not buying that it's so much more powerful than Oath of Moment, Martial Ka'Tah, Strands of Fate, Reanimation Protocols and Cult Ambush and Power from Pain that our units have to be priced 10% more than equivalent units from other armies or the same as better units from other armies.

Edited June 22, 2023 by jimboslice
clarity

[Marshall Bretton]

Regular grand master has 7 wounds, voldus only has 6.

[Valerian]

Thanks for your input, @Gaius Maximus and @jimboslice.  I edited my letter and just finally got around to sending the email in to GW.  Recommend everyone else does something similar.  

 

Also, Jimbo, I see that was your very first post here on the BnC - welcome aboard!

 

 

[jimboslice]

Thank you for the welcoming words Valerian, I've only been a lurker until now but you might be able to tell I'm a little salty about GK relative points cost and felt compelled to voice my displeasure. 

[Holier Than Thou]

Aaaaaannnnnnnddddd none of the issues identified have been touched as far as I can see.

[Marshall Bretton]

Yeah basically no changes for us at all, correcting some move stats for LR and adding a keyword to the chaplain with a slight change to one stratagem... Fairly disappointing but not a surprise

[WAR]

I think the point updates are slated for September IIRC. 

[Icosiel]

Small thing, but our Techmarine has a movement of 5" even though he's in power armor.

[WAR]

41 minutes ago, Icosiel said:

Small thing, but our Techmarine has a movement of 5" even though he's in power armor.

 

And as you pointed on your video Land Raider Phobos has Movement 10 not 12