10th ed findings!

[Tacitus]

11 hours ago, Karhedron said:

2 Firestrikes are tougher than the Devs but have a lower OC, shorter range, less mobility and cost 33% more. I would say they look pretty evenly balanced.

That is another point - with the death Detachements with 3 HS Slots, I think we're more likely to see a supplemental MSU approach to Heavy Support (i.e. 3 1 sized Firestrikes to spread around in addition to what you would have taken as "normal" HS slots - as an example, actual results will vary based on theme, points and so on. 

[Karhedron]

17 hours ago, Orange Knight said:

We may have to face the uncomfortable truth that the Desolators are now the best option lol. A squad of 10 is throwing a lot of high strength shots at range, and can pick off seperate infantry units in cover.

 

I just can't make up my mind about Desolators. They are priced much better than in 9th but they are only S10 meaning you are pretty much relying on OOM for serious anti-tank work. Maybe a Libby or Apothecary with Bolter Discipline, there are a lot of shots to Proc that Sustained Hits rule.

[Tacitus]

2 hours ago, Karhedron said:

 

I just can't make up my mind about Desolators. They are priced much better than in 9th but they are only S10 meaning you are pretty much relying on OOM for serious anti-tank work. Maybe a Libby or Apothecary with Bolter Discipline, there are a lot of shots to Proc that Sustained Hits rule.

Break the paradigm.  I haven't done the math, so I can't say for sure, but you and most of everyone else is focused on the Big Gun.  50 models with lascannons lose to 400 gretchin.  Its not always about the big gun.  And there are better big guns.  What happens if you do Sustained Hits Desolators and the LITTLE gun (i.e. Superfrag).  How many infantry models can you melt that way?  

 

What I'm getting at is don't discount the weapon swaps based on last edition or chasing the Strength value. 

[Karhedron]

2 hours ago, Tacitus said:

What I'm getting at is don't discount the weapon swaps based on last edition or chasing the Strength value. 

 

It is a valid point but with bolters all-round and Tactical Terminators with Storm Bolters looking strong in this edition, Marines generally don't need the extra anti-infantry firepower too much.

 

The 10th edition meta is a big unknown at the moment but it looks like vehicles will be making a comeback so it is fairly natural that interest will focus on anti-tank weapons. Desolators already bring 10xD3 S4 indirect shots from their Castellan launchers which is quite tasty but unless Gaunt-spam becomes a thing, I am not convinced anyone will ever take the Superfrags.

[Paladin777]

Even though eradicators are only S9 this edition, they've got reroll hits, wounds, and even damage. As such they might be deceptively good a cracking tough nuts that aren't your OoM target. Them only being 95 points for 3 on a gravis platform is kind of gravy, even if they can't trigger Melta out of reserves. 
 

I'll certainly be using mine!

Edited June 21, 2023 by Paladin777

[Lemondish]

1 hour ago, Paladin777 said:

Even though eradicators are only S9 this edition, they've got reroll hits, wounds, and even damage. As such they might be deceptively good a cracking tough nuts that aren't your OoM target. Them only being 95 points for 3 on a gravis platform is kind of gravy, even if they can't trigger Melta out of reserves. 
 

I'll certainly be using mine!

They certainly are. They may not be as effective as they once were since they were pumping out double the shots, but I feel they're a tad more flexible and provide some unique problem solving that doesn't need to interact with the OOM target so you can be more open with what they focus on.

 

I also like that the new Apothecary with Lethal Hits and perhaps even Bolter Discipline can really improve their lethality by just bypassing toughness entirely.

 

Even better, they work really well when paired with a SS Thunderstrike and Incursor squad.

[Karhedron]

3 hours ago, Lemondish said:

I also like that the new Apothecary with Lethal Hits and perhaps even Bolter Discipline can really improve their lethality by just bypassing toughness entirely.

 

That is a good point, I had not considered the value of pairing Eradicators with the new Biologis. The combination of AP and high damage means the shots that do Wound will leave a mark and Lethal Hits will normally add at least one auto-wound for a full strength squad.

[CCE1981]

Reivers with Grav-Chutes with an attached Phobos Lieutenant can Deepstrike with an effective 3d6” charge if he shoots.

[Paladin777]

1 hour ago, CCE1981 said:

Reivers with Grav-Chutes with an attached Phobos Lieutenant can Deepstrike with an effective 3d6” charge if he shoots.

I've got a feeling that's going to be errata'd out in short order. Nothing else gets that kind of 'charge out of deep strike,' so I'm under the impression that it would go against the intended design philosophy for 10th edition.

Edited June 22, 2023 by Paladin777

[Vermintide]

I mean, as much as it likely is unintended, at least it'd give Reivers something, am I right? And it's not like they're going to do all that much when they get there.

[Paladin777]

Agreed. I'm just saying that anyone using that shouldn't get used to it. It's kind of like the grapnel launchers in 8th that allowed stupidly close charges out of deep strike.

Edited June 22, 2023 by Paladin777

[Karhedron]

7 hours ago, Paladin777 said:

I've got a feeling that's going to be errata'd out in short order. Nothing else gets that kind of 'charge out of deep strike,' so I'm under the impression that it would go against the intended design philosophy for 10th edition.

 

Given that Reivers still hit like a (scary) wet noodle in combat, it may not be a mistake. You may be right about it getting errata'ed but it doesn't look too broken to me given that it is a bunch of S4 Ap-0 attacks (although forcing Battleshock tests will be handy).

[Tacitus]

6 hours ago, Vermintide said:

I mean, as much as it likely is unintended, at least it'd give Reivers something, am I right? And it's not like they're going to do all that much when they get there.

I wouldn't sleep on Reivers becasue they were bad in 8th/9th.  -1LD and forced Battle Shock Test(s) is a vast improvement for them.  Especially if you can layer in extra tests- with -1 a Ld 6 Battleshock becomes Ld 7 which is a 50/50, make them take multiple tests (Reivers in a given range is one, shooting from a Whirlwind is another, Charging by Assault Terminators is a third) - Two tests each are about 50/50, three tests are even more likely to battleshock something.  Two checks is about a 67% change to battle shock, three checks is about an 80% chance. 

[Captain Idaho]

Ain't no one taking Reivers even with the Battleshock adjustments. You can spend the points on something else, like a 2nd Whirlwind or more Assault Terminators, if you really want to fiddle around with Battleshock.

 

They're just so weak offensively and rely on getting close, they're a liability of points investment really.

[Orange Knight]

Reivers definitely have a place, but not against other Marines.

 

People fall into a common trap: "That unit can't kill Space Marines so it's worthless" although in fairness they can't be blamed fully as Marines make up a large portion of the meta.

 

There are armies that will spam t3 characters with poor saves across their units. Eldar, Dark Eldar, Cults, Guard, etc. Reivers are excellent against these. A unit can drop down and shoot up a Farseer or a Guard character, completely crippling the bonuses these armies rely on. 5 of these guys can drop in behind or to the side of units that are hiding out of sight, and fire 10 shots with potential re-rolls that can sniper characters from inside units. There will be lots of t3 models with 5+ saves and 3/4 wounds that can be dispatched.

 

After that the Reiver unit will either need to be dealt with, or they will harass these units further in shooting and combat.

[Captain Idaho]

The thing is, anything in the Marines army that can fight Space Marines can also fight those T3 armies. Killing a character in melee is cool of course, but then you can just charge in with a character and pull off a Strategum for free with a Captain and Epic Duel said weak T3 character.

 

Assault Marines, Assault Intercessors, Vanguard etc all cut through infantry well and have added benefits of being faster or battleline or just superior in melee against light infantry. And heavy infantry for that matter.

 

Incursors have comparable melee potential to Reivers but also provide benefits to other units as well.

 

I don't know why Reivers haven't got a -1 AP. They really needed that to be worthwhile really.

[Karhedron]

True but none of those units can reliably charge out of Deep Strike (28%-ish pass rate). Assuming the effective 3D6" charge range sticks, that is 74% pass rate or 93% if you are willing to spend a CP for a reroll. Even the threat of that will make the opponent have to be a lot more careful with screening. 

[Minsc]

You want to spend points on something that scares the enemy (Reivers) ... or do you want to spend points on something that kills the enemy?

 

Reivers are bad. The 3D6 charge might redeem them a bit but its not amazing on a unit with their damageoutput, and it requires you to spend additional points on a character that isn't that great to begin with either.

[Kallas]

Reivers are great! They're so good they scare even Knights! 

[Lemondish]

Thread for findings.

 

Some fraters: "No, your findings are dumb!"

 

[Minsc]

6 minutes ago, Lemondish said:

Thread for findings.

 

Some fraters: "No, your findings are dumb!"

 

I'm not allowed to have an opninion? My bad.

[SkimaskMohawk]

Eh, i took reivers and the Phobos Lt in my last game. They work well for sniping throwaway, chaf, backfield objective holders and/or leaders, but the unit is 155 (and maybe slightly more if your index allows a good enhancement). At that price you can get two units of scout snipers, or a Gladiator, and are almost to incursor+land speeder territory. They're a nice to have unit; i doubt you'd ever take them over critical anti tank/infantry, so it's really about comparing them to other things like vindicares, snipers, artillery, etc. 

 

They're definitely easier to apply than some of their contemporaries with the 3d6 charge, but are dependent on screening and army composition.

[Orange Knight]

There is value in a unit that can arrive later into the game, when the armies are depleted, and is able to claim or contest objectives far from your own deployment. 

 

As I mentioned above the Reivers won't be doing much against other Marines, but they are definitely a legitimate option from the tool box.

[Vermintide]

8 hours ago, Tacitus said:

I wouldn't sleep on Reivers becasue they were bad in 8th/9th.  -1LD and forced Battle Shock Test(s) is a vast improvement for them.  Especially if you can layer in extra tests- with -1 a Ld 6 Battleshock becomes Ld 7 which is a 50/50, make them take multiple tests (Reivers in a given range is one, shooting from a Whirlwind is another, Charging by Assault Terminators is a third) - Two tests each are about 50/50, three tests are even more likely to battleshock something.  Two checks is about a 67% change to battle shock, three checks is about an 80% chance. 

I mean, yeah, I get what you're saying man, but. That ain't killing stuff is it. We playing Warhammer, we're interested in killing stuff. Sometimes we score points, but that's just to give structure to killing stuff.

 

That said it is weird Reivers are so bad at killing stuff. You wouldn't have thought the 1 point of AP difference between them and Assault Intercessors or even Death Company with chainswords really makes such a huge impact, but that's all it is, and we don't think of those units as wet noodles. We still didn't when they had no AP in 8th. Granted they are horribly overcosted in the current state of things, but still.

 

Perhaps it is in the mind. Perhaps we need to become the terror troops after all.

[Lemondish]

3 minutes ago, Vermintide said:

We playing Warhammer, we're interested in killing stuff. Sometimes we score points, but that's just to give structure to killing stuff.

 

Please don't speak for the rest of us. It's absurdly rude.

 

Sure, some people play for the ultraviolence. Others play to tell a story. Others play to jockey for position at a tournament or other organized event. Some people just play to win. There's no one way to enjoy this hobby, or this game.

Edited June 22, 2023 by Lemondish