10th ed findings!

[Tacitus]

Infiltrators and Incursors both lost "Battle Line" even though Infiltrators have the Battleline shoulder insignia, and Assault Intercessors with a Close Assault shoulder insignia kept Battle Line.   And they're the same price as just about anything else.

 

I was fairly surprised the Infernus Squad also doesn't have the Battle Line keyword 

Edited June 23, 2023 by Tacitus

[Malakithe]

Thoughts on Sternguard? Combi vs bolt rifles? Slow but trigger MWs on a 4+ or advance + shoot and volume of shots?

[Tacitus]

Before OOM:

 

20 shots (with Rapid Fire 1), 13-14 hits,  7 Devastating Wounds - maybe part of one more vs T3 

 

Bolter:  30 shots(Rapid Fire 1), 20-25 hits,  3-4 are Devastating, 10-11 more are regular -1 D1 wounds (vs a 4+) call it 3-4 more wounds. 

 

vs a 4+ Armor save or better, I'd go Combi, vs a 5+ or worse, I'd go Sternguard Bolters.  Vs Unknown/TakeAllComers, I'd go Combi.   If I were GW I'd make combi-weapons slightly worse, or more likely make the Sternguard Bolters slightly better. 

[Malakithe]

22 minutes ago, Tacitus said:

Before OOM:

 

20 shots (with Rapid Fire 1), 13-14 hits,  7 Devastating Wounds - maybe part of one more vs T3 

 

Bolter:  30 shots(Rapid Fire 1), 20-25 hits,  3-4 are Devastating, 10-11 more are regular -1 D1 wounds (vs a 4+) call it 3-4 more wounds. 

 

vs a 4+ Armor save or better, I'd go Combi, vs a 5+ or worse, I'd go Sternguard Bolters.  Vs Unknown/TakeAllComers, I'd go Combi.   If I were GW I'd make combi-weapons slightly worse, or more likely make the Sternguard Bolters slightly better. 

Follow up question: Are they worth the points vs other infantry options? And if yes, should they be spammed? 

[Minsc]

I don't agree with the above assessment at all - I think Bolt Rifles are the superior weapon.

 

You're essentially choosing between Anti-Infantry 4+ or +1 BS, +1 Shot, +1 AP, Assault and Heavy. 

- Combi-Weapons will result in 10 / 5 hits depending on RF-range or not.

- Bolt Rifles will result in 20(25*) / 13,33(16,67*) hits depending on RF-range or not.

(*= +1 to hit from Heavy added if they do manage to stand still.)

Against TEQ's:

- CW will do 5 / 2,5 mortal wounds.

- BR will do 3,33(4,16) / 2,22(2,78) mortal wounds and an equal amount of AP1 wounds.

 

Against MEQ's

- CW will do 5 / 2,5 mortal wounds.

- BR will do 3,33(4,16) / 2,22(2,78) mortal wounds and 6,66(8,32) / 4,44(5,56) AP1 wounds. 

 

Against GEQ's

- CW will do 5 / 2,5 mortal wounds and 1,67/0,83 AP0 wounds
- BR will do 3,33(4,16) / 2,22(2,78) mortal wounds and 10(12,5) / 4,67(8,33) AP1 wounds. 

 

Against though non-infantry stuff (like T8+ vehicles, monsters, etc)

 

- CW will do 1,67 / 0,83 mortal wounds.

- BR will do 3,33(4,16) / 2,22(2,78) mortal wounds.

Basically if you rapid fire into really heavy infantry, the combi-weapons are slightly better. Against all other targets, the Bolt Rifle is noticeably better. 

[Tacitus]

7 minutes ago, Malakithe said:

Follow up question: Are they worth the points vs other infantry options? And if yes, should they be spammed? 

That's up to you and the theme you're going for.  I get the feeling there are numerous paths to a good list now with so many small combos to choose from. 

[Tacitus]

1 minute ago, Minsc said:

I don't agree with the above assessment at all - I think Bolt Rifles are the superior weapon.

 

You're essentially choosing between Anti-Infantry 4+ or +1 BS, +1 Shot, +1 AP, Assault and Heavy. 

Whoops, I missed the BS 4+/3+ switch, I wasn't expecting it on "small arms". That'll slide the break even point to 3+ Armor save instead of 4+, but still TAC Yeah I think I'd go Combi-weapons. 

[Karhedron]

I think I would go bolters in a TAC list. Against an OOM target, a 10-man squad will reliably dish out 8-ish Mortal Wounds at close range, even against Knights or Daemon Primarchs. Against other infantry, they are noticeably better than Intercessors for just 2ppm more. They have abilities that synergise well with the Faction bonus and don't need a Leader or Stratagem support to do their job well.

 

Intercessors have better OC and sticky Objective Secured which makes them better for Objective capping. But in terms of firepower, I think Sternguard are definitely worth the slight premium they cost. I don't know if I would spam them but they are a very good anti-everything unit and their ability to put significant hurt even the toughest targets with OOM really gives them a level of utility beyond most basic Astartes infantry.

[Kallas]

We ran the numbers a while back in the Sternguard thread.

 

The Bolters are better than the Combis in most situations, as they're not nearly as restrictive in their targets. Combis are consistent regardless of target, but the Bolters are good into most things still. Give them some buffs and the Bolters are crazy good.

[Tacitus]

8 Mortals is pushing it - 30 shots, 24 hits, 4 Mortals, 12ish fails reroll, is 2 more mortals, reroll the full 20 non-mortals is a bad idea, but only gets you to 3 or so for a total of 7.   Plus you're still in the hole against Termiantors and Gravis equivalents.  Take-All-Comers I still say Combi-weapons for T4+ Infantry - you can still get about 2/3's of the same number of 6's vs Daemon Primarchs (20 shots vs 30 = 2/3) - but you're just not giving up much to tag so many more mortals on Terminators, Big Bugs and Suits Oh My.   That's the niche they've carved out for combi-weapons.

[Malakithe]

48 minutes ago, Karhedron said:

I don't know if I would spam them but they are a very good anti-everything unit

This here is what im trying to work through. One unit of 10? MSU max? Go absolutely haam and cap them at 3x10? Then theres how to move them around...bolters mean advance and shoot is nice. Or maybe stick take advantage of the Impulsor firing ports.

[Tacitus]

14 minutes ago, Malakithe said:

This here is what im trying to work through. One unit of 10? MSU max? Go absolutely haam and cap them at 3x10? Then theres how to move them around...bolters mean advance and shoot is nice. Or maybe stick take advantage of the Impulsor firing ports.

Depends on the rest of your army.  It really feels like they want us to pick 3-5 or so small 2ish unit combos and put them together into an army.  So what else do you have?  Where are you getting your anti-tank?   anti-monster?  anti-infantry?  (that's lower case anti- as in stuff you want to shoot X with, not ANTI- as in stuff that Crit Wounds X)  30 Sternguard are a lot of anti-infantry.  And a lot of points - about a third of your army and you still need to get some anti-tank and anti-monster which can get kind of expensive. 

[Karhedron]

36 minutes ago, Tacitus said:

8 Mortals is pushing it - 30 shots, 24 hits, 4 Mortals, 12ish fails reroll, is 2 more mortals, reroll the full 20 non-mortals is a bad idea, but only gets you to 3 or so for a total of 7. 

 

You can also reoll your misses with OOM. 30 shots = 27 hits on average, if you reroll just failed wounds (not all non-6s), you get just over 8 MWs on average. 

[Malakithe]

6 minutes ago, Tacitus said:

Depends on the rest of your army.  It really feels like they want us to pick 3-5 or so small 2ish unit combos and put them together into an army.  So what else do you have?  Where are you getting your anti-tank?   anti-monster?  anti-infantry?  (that's lower case anti- as in stuff you want to shoot X with, not ANTI- as in stuff that Crit Wounds X)  30 Sternguard are a lot of anti-infantry.  And a lot of points - about a third of your army and you still need to get some anti-tank and anti-monster which can get kind of expensive. 

Yeah im messing around in the app right now. AT is likely in the form of two GLancers as they are cheap for a battle tank and reliable. Not as tough as some others but like I said cheap. And also target saturation. Ill likely want a Brutalis too just to launch up as a rampaging distraction

[LSM]

Vis-à-vis the Sternguard Veterans' ideal loadout, I'd suggest waiting until the Codex to make up your mind. In the Leviathan box instructions the Sternguard and Lieutenant's Combi-Weapons have individualised rules:

• Sternguard Combi-Melta: [Anti-Vehicle 4+, Devastating Wounds, Melta 2] R24" A2 BS3+ S4 AP-1 D1
• Sternguard Combi-Plasma: [Anti-Monster 4+, Devastating Wounds, Hazardous] R24" A2 BS3+ S4 AP-1 D1
• Lieutenant's Combi-Flamer: [Anti-Infantry 4+, Devastating Wounds, Ignores Cover] R24" A2 BS2+ S4 AP-1 D1

For reference, the Index has:

• Sternguard Combi-Weapon: [Anti-Infantry 4+, Devastating Wounds, Rapid Fire 1] R24" A1 BS4+ S4 AP0 D1
• Lieutenant's Combi-Weapon: [Anti-Infantry 4+, Devastating Wounds, Rapid Fire 1] R24" A1 BS3+ S4 AP0 D1

It's possible that the Index's "Combi-Weapon" is going to go away in a few months.

 

It's also possible that the "full release" Sternguard Veteran squad will have something like "2-in-five" for each individual type of combi-weapon, meaning that what you model them with will suddenly be important again.

Edited June 23, 2023 by LSM

[Marshal Reinhard]

Hadn't realized they were 2 attacks each too. interesting.

[Kallas]

3 hours ago, LSM said:

It's possible that the Index's "Combi-Weapon" is going to go away in a few months.

It is possible. I would not advise betting on it. 

[Tacitus]

Yeah, I'm betting Leviathan Stats are 9E stats as we're getting Leviathan in 9E, much the way the old app is still around for people still playing 9E or they were printed before the 10E changes went final. 

[LSM]

Probably not 9th - 9th doesn't have [Anti-X], [Devastating Wounds], etc.

 

The gamble is on two scenarios:

• They made the Indexes, locked them in, and then got to work on Codexes: Space Marines and Tyranids (increasing the individuality of Combi-Weapons). They did not incorporate the changes that will be present in those Codexes back into the Indexes, as they were locked in. When creating the instructions for Leviathan, they used the stats that are going to appear in the Codexes.
• They made an early version of the Indexes. When creating the instructions for Leviathan, they have used those stats. They then got to work on Codexes: Space Marines and Tyranids (decreasing the individuality of Combi-Weapons), and went back and modified the Indexes to reflect this change.

Personally, I lean towards the former, but it is dramatically far from a surety. In fact, logically the latter should be more likely, as otherwise that means they are (at this moment) selling Index Cards that will be out-of-date in a handful of months. But... uhm... GW...

 

Edit: Of course, another point in favour of the latter is that the Sternguard's Bolt Rifles have [Devastating Wounds] but lack the [Assault, Heavy, Rapid Fire 1] of the Index. Warhammer Community made much of the [Assault, Heavy] change to Bolt Rifles, it would be bizarre if Sternguard were to lose it.

 

//

 

Either way, if someone is going to make an investment into Sternguard right now, possibly ripping off their old models' Combi-Weapons to be replaced by Bolters, or buying a bunch of stuff for conversions... I'd suggest waiting until their full release. It shouldn't be too far away, and could save some sorrow.

Edited June 24, 2023 by LSM

[Paladin777]

To take the conversation in a slightly different direction, which leader would any of you take with them? Librarian seems strong for the invul, and the lieutenant seems like a horrible idea as Lethal Hits doesn't stack with DW.

 

A foot captain with a MC bolt rifle might be nice for the free strats, and the ability to go ape once per game might help keep them from getting locked up in combat.

 

A leader in this squad really seems like a great candidate for either Adept of the codex or Bolter Discipline. 

[Silas7]

On 6/22/2023 at 10:34 AM, Vermintide said:

I mean, yeah, I get what you're saying man, but. That ain't killing stuff is it. We playing Warhammer, we're interested in killing stuff. Sometimes we score points, but that's just to give structure to killing stuff.

 

That said it is weird Reivers are so bad at killing stuff. You wouldn't have thought the 1 point of AP difference between them and Assault Intercessors or even Death Company with chainswords really makes such a huge impact, but that's all it is, and we don't think of those units as wet noodles. We still didn't when they had no AP in 8th. Granted they are horribly overcosted in the current state of things, but still.

 

Perhaps it is in the mind. Perhaps we need to become the terror troops after all.

 

After reading this I got the idea that if GW gave Reivers an ability that prevented strats from being used on units within 'x' inches, this unit would be getting a lot more consideration.

[Karhedron]

12 hours ago, Paladin777 said:

To take the conversation in a slightly different direction, which leader would any of you take with them?

 

The beauty of Sternguard is that they don't really need a leader to be effective. They are a cost-effective unit that works well just with OOM.

 

I am slowly forming the opinion that too many Leaders are a trap. A few key Characters are essential but overall, boys over toys is the way to go I think. 

[Lemondish]

14 hours ago, Paladin777 said:

To take the conversation in a slightly different direction, which leader would any of you take with them? Librarian seems strong for the invul, and the lieutenant seems like a horrible idea as Lethal Hits doesn't stack with DW.

 

A foot captain with a MC bolt rifle might be nice for the free strats, and the ability to go ape once per game might help keep them from getting locked up in combat.

 

A leader in this squad really seems like a great candidate for either Adept of the codex or Bolter Discipline. 

 

I'm going with the Librarian at first. The invulnerable save is the goal there, but a Captain is a bit more interesting just for the stratagem support. My Bolter Discipline bearer is sticking with the Hellblasters for now.

Edited June 25, 2023 by Lemondish