Winners and losers of 10th Edition so far?

[MoshJason]

39 minutes ago, phandaal said:

 

So what? I don't care if GW intended to do something stupid. It is a bad mechanic and should be removed from the game.

 

Why is it stupid? We had it last edition as "If you wound, this does mortal wounds" - if anything, they've toned it down for the most part. If Eldar have a problem with it - then remove or reduce the ANTI on their unit, or up their point cost. Mortal Wounds have been a thing for a long time, and before it, in 7e and below, we had rending which was very, very similar due to how rare invuln saves were at the time.

[Karhedron]

47 minutes ago, phandaal said:

So what? I don't care if GW intended to do something stupid. It is a bad mechanic and should be removed from the game.

 

But why? There are other mechanics in the game that generate Mortal Wounds, why is this one particularly bothersome? It is clearly intended to represent specialised weaponry that excels at a specific role.

[Karhedron]

34 minutes ago, Captain Idaho said:

I was this old when I found out the Eldar Fireprism was only 125pts 

 

The Gladiator Lancer is only 20 points more. The Lancer has T10 which is a significant help against Superkrak and Autocannons, it also has more secondary weapons. The Fire Prism has +4" movement and FLY which is good for lining up shots, it also has the Dispersed mode which makes it a lot more flexible. I think the Prism probably is undercosted and should be on par with the Lancer in terms of points but 20 points is only about 15% and you cannot spam more than 3 as it is not Battleline.

[Captain Idaho]

2 wrongs don't make a right, but the Fireprism benefits from the Eldar faction and Detachment rules plus its own unit special rules, whereas the Lancer just benefits from its unit special rules as they duplicate the faction rules whilst the Detachment rules for things like Gladius will seldom if ever be used with it in mind.

[Blurf]

3 hours ago, Karhedron said:

 

The Gladiator Lancer is only 20 points more. The Lancer has T10 which is a significant help against Superkrak and Autocannons, it also has more secondary weapons. The Fire Prism has +4" movement and FLY which is good for lining up shots, it also has the Dispersed mode which makes it a lot more flexible. I think the Prism probably is undercosted and should be on par with the Lancer in terms of points but 20 points is only about 15% and you cannot spam more than 3 as it is not Battleline.

You can also fly it it's maximum distance, Fire it AND two other fire prisms anywhere on the board at anything you want, and then stratagem to fly it back to safety.

 

Also, nerf the Lancer too.

3 hours ago, Karhedron said:

 

But why? There are other mechanics in the game that generate Mortal Wounds, why is this one particularly bothersome? It is clearly intended to represent specialised weaponry that excels at a specific role.

Are there other mortal wounds mechanics in the game?

I play Sisters of Battle so I'm only vaguely aware of Mortal wounds as a concept.

[MegaVolt87]

With no FOC, and the rule of three being the only limit, you can front load an entire force with just HS slot units. Whats the intended points now ? 3k pts ? Higher pts might fix some factions issues to at least compete. The real losers ? our wallets, because everything will be different in 6 months, likely invalidating new purchases so soon. Proxy everything and loosen up the WYSIWYG requirements for 10th ed, and try not to buy new models if you can help it, until we see things settle down some. 

[Scribe]

1 hour ago, MegaVolt87 said:

With no FOC, and the rule of three being the only limit, you can front load an entire force with just HS slot units. Whats the intended points now ? 3k pts ? Higher pts might fix some factions issues to at least compete. The real losers ? our wallets, because everything will be different in 6 months, likely invalidating new purchases so soon. Proxy everything and loosen up the WYSIWYG requirements for 10th ed, and try not to buy new models if you can help it, until we see things settle down some. 

 

I thought it was 2k? If its 3k...I dont think I want to play lol.

[Blurf]

1 hour ago, Scribe said:

 

I thought it was 2k? If its 3k...I dont think I want to play lol.

It's still 2k. 

[Abominant]

I think Aeldari should get a starting Fate dice pool based upon their army compostion, and those dice just shouldn't ever regenerate.

Like 3 dice per farseer, and 1 per warlock or something, with the same option to reduce the pool for rerolls at the start of the game.

Maybe there'd be a mechanic that provides an occasional chance to save a die.

[MegaVolt87]

Without a formal FOC and slot caps, I think larger point games at 3k will be more balanced than at the 2k pts level in 10th ed. 

[Special Officer Doofy]

Winner - Eldar

 

Losers - Battle Sisters, Death Guard, Admech, LoV and anyone that doesn't care for powerlevels in the form of 5 points per powerlevel instead of 20.

[Scribe]

38 minutes ago, MegaVolt87 said:

Without a formal FOC and slot caps, I think larger point games at 3k will be more balanced than at the 2k pts level in 10th ed. 

 

I just dont want to have to deal with that many models. If I wanted to play Apoc, I would have played it more. :D

[spessmarine]

16 hours ago, phandaal said:

Fate Dice should be changed to work once per unit per phase. That is still consistent, combined with their rerolls, but it prevents the early game mega-spikes people can do by blowing through their Fate dice early on.

 

Combo that with changing Devastating Wounds to something like +1/2/3 Mortal Wounds per critical wound, and removing the interaction between Anti and Devastating Wounds.

 

That would be a huge step in the right direction.

 

Yeah, the swingy start is brutal. And devastating wounds is enough on its own without guaranteed triggering of it.

 

14 hours ago, Rain said:

The mechanic of substituting dice rolls for known set values just shouldn’t exist in a game like this. If it absolutely has to exist for some reason, it should be strictly limited to 1 per unit per phase as others have said, or only to a certain kind of roll.

 

The removal of variance in general sucks. Gratuitous rerolls, fate dice, etc. all take drama out of the game. Sometimes that big scary gun should just whiff 3 turns in a row. Weird stuff should happen, it’s memorable.

 

I still remember back in 3rd edition, losing 3 Chaos Terminators in 1 round of close combat against Guard due to awful rolls on my part and great rolls on my opponent’s part. Don’t remember or care how that game ended, but I remember all the 1’s I rolled.
 

I also remember (again circa 3rd/early 4th) my daemon prince rolling like an absolute lad and wiping a GK Terminator squad single handedly. The guy I was playing (who was a lot older than me at the time) tried to get me to reroll the dice because I rolled “his dice” for my attacks, leading me to pack up my stuff and leave. People can suck, but variance is fun.

 

Yeah, definitely saps something from a game where your opponent is guaranteed to make every invulnerable save that matters.

[Plaguecaster]

Death guard are just complete garbage compared to the op ones like marines and Eldar 

Everything is so damn expensive and got massively nerfed losing survivability plus weapons being changed to deal barely any damage and barely any mortal wounds output or form of defense against compared to mostly every other army 

 

Absolutely unfair and stupid DG are basically one of the only armies that their entire identity has been forcibly changed making you do a completey different playstyle whilst other armies haven't

Dg was always know to be resilent Infantry marching up the board shrugging off damage and able to deal with alot of things in combat now its a complete joke where a weak breeze can remove an entire squad. Tau players would get angry if they had to do melee instead of shooting or deathwing with no terminators so why the are DG forced to change everything 

 

Also BS stuff like Fire prisms being only 125pts whilst PBCs are massively overpriced at 175pts 

Edited June 21, 2023 by Plaguecaster

[Meister Eisenfaust]

Man i do not know.
I just see a T8 Karamazov and want to tankshock him into something. 
 

Edited June 21, 2023 by Meister Eisenfaust

[Captain Idaho]

It's a combination of factors... Fate dice, eldar weaponry, dirt cheap points costs, unit abilities etc.

 

Using the example I mentioned above, what's the difference between a Primaris Lancer only being 20pts more than a Fireprism and getting reroll hits and wounds with it's big gun for free compared to the Fate dice on the aforementioned Fireprism?

 

Well Overwatch aside, the main difference is the ability of the Lancer contradicts the Faction ability, whereas the Fireprism does not and indeed enjoys its faction ability, it's Detachment ability and unit ability in a way that each doesn't damage the other.

 

The Lancer won't benefit much from the Gladius Detachment rules, benefits less from the faction Oath of Moment ability and because of OoM, doesn't really benefit from its unit ability. And ends up more expensive in points to boot.

Edited June 21, 2023 by Captain Idaho

[Captain Idaho]

Personally? None. Just watching games so far, as well as an understanding of the rules and game at large.

 

There's a bunch of YouTube channels you can watch to find out. Art of War, a bunch of tournament professionals, does a good breakdown of the factions here:

 

 

[phandaal]

11 minutes ago, Captain Idaho said:

Personally? None. Just watching games so far, as well as an understanding of the rules and game at large.

 

There's a bunch of YouTube channels you can watch to find out. Art of War, a bunch of tournament professionals, does a good breakdown of the factions here:

 

 

 

Mini wargaming Studios has a fun one. Harlequins vs Votann. Turn one, Votann army gutted via Fate Dice. He was a good sport and played out the next few rounds before conceding. In the post game, he said something like "I am going to try and be positive..." Then started talking about all of the powerful stuff the Eldar army could do.

[Azekai]

1 hour ago, EnsignJoker said:

How many games have you played against Eldar this edition and how many of those games have they won and by what margin? 

Seems to me you are heavily implying that one needs to be steamrolled by Eldar to see if they are overpowered. That doesn’t make much sense. A person’s take is only valid if they have personally gotten their teeth kicked in, repeatedly? C’mon. 
 

It doesn’t take a mathematician to see that undercosted units + controlled, nonrandom outcomes = really good. 
 

It isn’t like this is a new phenomenon either. Eldar have been over strong or terrible for a long time. ‘Glass cannon’ seems to be something GW really struggles to write rules for.

[Captain Idaho]

Yeah, I can tell right away that Mike Tyson is going to batter me in the boxing ring if I go up against him. Doesn't need to happen for me to tell that.

 

 

Edited June 21, 2023 by Captain Idaho

[DemonGSides]

Personally, I'd still rather see you get beat before deciding HOW badly you got beaten, but that's just me.

 

I'm willing to let you do science for us, in that regard

[Jorin Helm-splitter]

6 hours ago, Captain Idaho said:

Personally? None. Just watching games so far, as well as an understanding of the rules and game at large.

 

There's a bunch of YouTube channels you can watch to find out. Art of War, a bunch of tournament professionals, does a good breakdown of the factions here:

 

 

 

It's honestly really depressing after watching this that the fixation is on the fire prism. That far of a spread between the fractions just isn't acceptable, more so because a couple of the "balanced options" are marine chapter's unique detachments and those chapters can use the gladius detachment. 3 of their bottom 4 won't be getting a codex until next summer at the earliest.

 

I know that we need data to confirm it but I just don't see a lot to argue with in their video. My main issue is I think that SoB should be lower, but they have them bottom four so even that doesn't feel wrong I mean the difference between awful and worst isn't really that important. I guess I could see TS being a fraction where player skill could affect the rating quite a bit so maybe not second best. This would be a really concerning starting point, for this edition people were a lot more optimistic with 8th.

[Special Officer Doofy]

9 hours ago, Captain Idaho said:

Personally? None. Just watching games so far, as well as an understanding of the rules and game at large.

 

There's a bunch of YouTube channels you can watch to find out. Art of War, a bunch of tournament professionals, does a good breakdown of the factions here:

 

 

 

Death Guard at the very bottom. Could have saw that coming.

[Rain]

36 minutes ago, Special Officer Doofy said:

 

Death Guard at the very bottom. Could have saw that coming.

 
People will keep moving the goalposts, but the writing was on the wall pretty early. I’m actually worried about WE as well, especially as Fights First units will get to activate before you on your charge turn. There’s a BoK for fight on death on 4+, but still. Having no shooting to speak of, and being potential struck first on finally getting to charge feels bad. I feel like any army with access to FF will have a big advantage over WE, as it’s not like a WE player can rely on shooting the FF unit(s). I guess I could buy a Knight, but I hate painting big models.

 

Still, WE are far ahead of DG. It’s crazy that the same studio that put out Eldar, TS, and Custodes, put out DG.

Edited June 22, 2023 by Rain

[Scribe]

13 minutes ago, Rain said:

It’s crazy that the same studio that put out Eldar, TS, and Custodes, put out DG.

 

Without a doubt different designer, or someone who 'gets' those factions, but doesnt 'get' DG.