Winners and losers of 10th Edition so far?

[OttoVonAwesome]

I don't feel Deathguard are the very bottom that honour has to go Sisters they got screwed in points values hard. T 5 basic troops are good against a ton of factions and in old editions I used to table people just cuase they couldn't wound my Plague Marines for crap. AP having gone down your mostly still getting 4+ saves even against stronger infantry weapons, Contagion garuntees them an edge in CC and they get a plethora of power weapons with everything having lethal hits. They also have great characters they can attach like the Foul Blightspawn wich gives fight first and the only limits on doubling them up is you can't have two of the same guy wich isn't really a lmitation. Plague Drones and Blighthaulers are great the Crawler is pretty damn good too.

 

If the assumption they are bad is beacuase they have 1 inch less movement I think that's a mistake and you really shouldn't be short selling them this early. Plaguemarines aren't expensive and are very very good. I'm also pretty sure Land Raiders and Rhino's solve the movement issue. This is just thier basic detachment too the bones of the army are great even if the detachment isn't.

[Dark Legionnare]

1 hour ago, OttoVonAwesome said:

I don't feel Deathguard are the very bottom that honour has to go Sisters they got screwed in points values hard. T 5 basic troops are good against a ton of factions and in old editions I used to table people just cuase they couldn't wound my Plague Marines for crap. AP having gone down your mostly still getting 4+ saves even against stronger infantry weapons, Contagion garuntees them an edge in CC and they get a plethora of power weapons with everything having lethal hits. They also have great characters they can attach like the Foul Blightspawn wich gives fight first and the only limits on doubling them up is you can't have two of the same guy wich isn't really a lmitation. Plague Drones and Blighthaulers are great the Crawler is pretty damn good too.

 

If the assumption they are bad is beacuase they have 1 inch less movement I think that's a mistake and you really shouldn't be short selling them this early. Plaguemarines aren't expensive and are very very good. I'm also pretty sure Land Raiders and Rhino's solve the movement issue. This is just thier basic detachment too the bones of the army are great even if the detachment isn't.

Having played two games over the weekend and seeing the same result of:

 

"My toughness isn't changing how much I'm being wounded, (rerolls abound for wounding, lethal hits on anything with an LT attached for sm, etc, etc....) but my slow movement is gimping my ability to do various things." it's not some imaginary construct. The movement hurts a lot, but the toughness compensation isn't doing diddly.

 

Rhinos, LR's are all well and good. Rhinos are T9 now, but still pretty fragile. Land raiders okay, but I watched them get sliced open by OOM between friends playing other games vs each other. I'm not saying transports aren't good, but just that they're not always going to fix the issue.

 

On top of that, there's other incidental things like DG having no reliable anti-armor beyond lascannons. So, if you don't have predators, dreads, or landraiders you can be in pretty dire straights. The Entropy cannons on the PBC's also got dropped down to 24" for some reason...

 

There's a lot stacked against DG, compounding, with not much compensation for those various things. Lethal hits is an 'okay' mechanic, but it doesn't change the issue of the army's lack of firepower and movement that's supposed to be compensated with durability. DG's current durability, slightly higher T on some things, is invalidated by so many things.

 

I have direct experience now playing that against Necron warriors, Oath of moment annihilating vehicles with basically no effort, and as a more verbose example: watching my 10 man PM squad (200pts) toting all the ranged firepower they could, barely scratch 10 man heavy intercessors (220pts).  Said hvy ints then hose back with S5 firepower dropping PM's left and right. (Not to mention they're T6, 3W, and get +1 sv against dmg 1 weapons meaning those lethal hits boltguns are doing jack squat). The two "hardy infantry" of two different factions are leagues separated in hardiness, but not points.

 

I digress; it's not "nothing", that lessened movement and firepower across the faction without functionally-meaningful durability enhancements. Also, the loss of flavor and feel of "plodding hardiness" is very noticeable for me who's been playing DG since 4th edition, but that's a different story.

Edited June 22, 2023 by Dark Legionnare

[Azekai]

2 hours ago, Dark Legionnare said:

… as a more verbose example: watching my 10 man PM squad (200pts) toting all the ranged firepower they could, barely scratch 10 man heavy intercessors (220pts).  Said hvy ints then hose back with S5 firepower dropping PM's left and right. (Not to mention they're T6, 3W, and get +1 sv against dmg 1 weapons meaning those lethal hits boltguns are doing jack squat). The two "hardy infantry" of two different factions are leagues separated in hardiness, but not points.

 

Sounds like it’s time for those plague marines to start using loyalist rules and start a new career standing in for heavy intercessors. 

Edited June 22, 2023 by Azekai

[spessmarine]

1 hour ago, Azekai said:

Sounds like it’s time for those plague marines to start using loyalist rules and start standing in for heavy intercessors. 

 

Time for the some Black Templars Upholding the Honour and smelling bad doing it.

[Kastor Krieg]

7 hours ago, spessmarine said:

 

Time for the some Black Templars Upholding the Honour and smelling bad doing it.

I've done it yesterday - a 10-man blob of Templar Termies (2+, 4++, 6+++ fnp from Uphold) with TDA Chaplain granting them 4+++ fnp vs Mortal Wounds and Armour of Contempt (-1 AP for a phase) for 1CP were absolutely, totally, comically, disgustingly resilient.

Not to mention each of them has 4W and the Chappie 5W these days. Up yours, Death Guard xD

Edited June 22, 2023 by Kastor Krieg

[Joe]

Less performance, more list-building; it's great being able to build a pure Cultist/Traitor Guard force for CSM again. Admittedly they lack any suitable vehicles so we're forced to use daemon engines or allies at the moment, however I'm hoping it's an indication of a true return-to-form for Lost and the Damned/Renegades & Heretics.

[Jorin Helm-splitter]

@OttoVonAwesome I think SoB are easier to address then the armies that they have below them. Mainly for the reasons you mentioned that they have alot of horribly pointed units. Admech, votann, and DG need work on data sheets and fraction/detachment abilities.

 

Edit: to be clear I don't know if they can make them competitive but at least not a train wreck.

 

Edited June 22, 2023 by Jorin Helm-splitter

[Borbarad]

Winners: Games Workshop Shareholders

 

Losers: Beta Testers (us)

[Redcomet]

GW have embraced the AAA video game way. Release an unfinished product. Now soon we will get a roadmap and promises of fixes in the future . And just as 10th is “patched” 11th is out.

[Scribe]

1 minute ago, Redcomet said:

GW have embraced the AAA video game way. Release an unfinished product. Now soon we will get a roadmap and promises of fixes in the future . And just as 10th is “patched” 11th is out.

 

Need that sad emoji...

[Sky Potato]

22 minutes ago, Borbarad said:

Winners: Games Workshop Shareholders

 

Losers: Beta Testers (us)

Nothing stopping you being both dude…

[Blurf]

6 hours ago, Jorin Helm-splitter said:

@OttoVonAwesome I think SoB are easier to address then the armies that they have below them. Mainly for the reasons you mentioned that they have alot of horribly pointed units. Admech, votann, and DG need work on data sheets and fraction/detachment abilities.

 

Edit: to be clear I don't know if they can make them competitive but at least not a train wreck.

 

SoB is weird because it feels like the designer was EXTREMELY good and understood the faction perfectly.

 

And then went meticulously line by line to make 100% SURE the index wasn't any good. It's bad in a way that feels deliberate...almost spiteful.

[Plaguecaster]

Yep there's no way anyone can say GW didn't have clear bias for certain factions compared to others when you look at the massive difference in power for the more op factions.

Someone at Gw clearly lost badly to a DG army one time and vowed to make sure it would never happen again 

Edited June 23, 2023 by Plaguecaster

[Borbarad]

53 minutes ago, Plaguecaster said:

Yep there's no way anyone can say GW didn't have clear bias for certain factions compared to others when you look at the massive difference in power for the more op factions.

Someone at Gw clearly lost badly to a DG army one time and vowed to make sure it would never happen again 

Don’t attribute to malice what can be explained by incompetence 

[Redcomet]

55 minutes ago, Plaguecaster said:

Yep there's no way anyone can say GW didn't have clear bias for certain factions compared to others when you look at the massive difference in power for the more op factions.

Someone at Gw clearly lost badly to a DG army one time and vowed to make sure it would never happen again 

Or someone got Covid and blamed Nurgle.

[Redcomet]

2 minutes ago, Borbarad said:

Don’t attribute to malice what can be explained by incompetence 

Or lack of time. I honestly think it is due to the the dev team not having enough time to do a proper job. 

[Mandragola]

With Eldar it’s not a question of two fate dice per turn. You can use all of them in T1 if you want and you can generate more. 
 

Someone I know played world eaters against eldar least might. He was tabled at the top of T3 without killing a single eldar unit. Angron charged an avatar, which used seven fate dice to take no damage, then killed Angron with its return attacks. 
 

So don’t think of it as the occasional change of a dice roll. It can massively affect events on the board. Of course the eldar player was heavily drained of fate at this point but so what? Angron was dead and the avatar was free to run amok. GG. 

 

Imperial Knights and marines also look strong, though perhaps more fixable with points changes and minor errata. Desolators should just cost more, and personally I’d like them to delete any rule that removes the penalties for indirect. Knights do have the FW stuff coming soon, which could seriously impact them. 
 

The towering LoS thing is ok I think as it works both ways. I think they’ve mucked up how some other terrain works though, so a vehicle can sometimes be seen when it can’t see out of a ruin it isn’t fully in. I don’t know why they design LoS rules with one-way mirrors like this. 

Edited June 23, 2023 by Mandragola

[Karhedron]

You may have a point. I haven't played my Eldar yet but I can see the issue with burning large numbers of FD in one go to guarantee the outcome of a crucial clash or generate a massive alpha-strike. I am not generally keen TOs making their own house rules but the proposed "1 FD per unit per phase" would help prevent a lot of abuse.

 

Yes, I think both Marines and Knights are looking pretty strong because their faction abilities provide generous rerolls. I am not convinced Desolators are all that good. They are flexible which is good but their Superkrak shots are only S10 which struggles with anti-tank unless their target has OOM.

 

It looks to me like Dark Eldar are one of the losers so far. Their speed and mobility has been curtailed, especially with the changes to fly. Their vehicles have also become more fragile. They have not gained much in toughness like most other vehicles and their 5++ has been reduced to a 6++. They also struggle hugely against Nids since their splinter weapons are Anti-Infantry and their Haywire is Anti-Vehicle but they are mainly limited to Darklances to deal with Monsters. Also their melee options are looking a bit on the weak side with Incubi losing a points of Strength which will definitely affect their ability to handle MEQs.

[Captain Idaho]

Regarding the disparity between the power of factions, I hypothesised with a friend of mine that it's like some factions were done at the beginning of the development cycle, but weren't revisited sufficiently. It would explain why some unit rules just don't seem to match the faction rules, undermining them.

 

A great example is Death Guard lowering the toughness of models, yet their bolters get the benefit of Lethal hits, ignoring the faction special rule.

 

Whilst on the subject, I think GW has greatly overvalued Lethal Hits in many factions. It's a nice additional ability and does really well with more attacks, but it's just not the powerful attack to elevate things like Death Guard high enough to soar with the rest of the edition.

 

It does help Necrons, mainly because they're not paying points for a Faction ability that is undermined by Lethal Hits, but also because they get large horde types of units.

 

Even then, Necrons are about staying power over killing power, mostly.

[TrawlingCleaner]

Dark Eldar are an interesting one, the index is definitely a fall from grace from their 9th ed iteration (such is the nature of the edition change), however they do have quite a few overlooked strengths IMO.

 

The changes to fly and the changes to combat have hit the army very hard on top of some very harsh datasheet changes like Wyches and Incubi.

 

That said, what they've lost in speed and combat prowess, they've gained in damage output, board control and points costs. Dark Lances, Heat Lances and Haywire are all great weapons that haven't really lost that much damage output in the transition. With the way Devastating Wounds works, Haywire still has decent damage output into all targets.

 

Kabalites are very good, can have 2 special weapons and 2 heavy weapons as well as being the only (?) unit in the game that makes objectives sticky from inside transports. When you Empower a Raider or a Venom, you also Empower the weapons of the unit inside so you're getting very efficent shooting with reroll hits.

Scourges are real star units with their free Shoot'n'Scoot, lots of damage output with 4 Dark Lances, Heat Lances or Haywire plus they have Fly and infantry keywords so they can fly through ruins and aren't impeded by walls like vehicles and monsters are. You're able to Shoot, Scoot and Fire and Fade if you really want to as well for 34" + D6 if you advance which is pretty nuts. Heat Lances, Blasters, and Shredders are all Assault and you really don't need to stay still to use Heavy with these guys, just give them a Pain token and reroll everything

Ravagers are 95 points for 3 Dark Lances at T9 which is joint top Toughness for the index, they also have Deep Strike if you need it and don't really need a Pain Token for your first turn as their targets should all be unwounded so they get reroll 1s to hit

 

There's a good few other units I think are ace in the Index too. 1K points of Drukhari can also be taken in a Ynarri force and also all benefit from Fate Dice, Strands of Fate, all their strats can target them and they can get in their transports. My hot take is, I think Ynnari with a good chunk of Drukhari are probably what is going to be The BuildTM early on in the edition. Just take the most efficent units from both Indexes and smoosh in some Fate Dice and call it a day

 

I don't think Dark Eldar are bottom tier, they have lots of efficent datasheets and some gnarly weapons, although their play style is very different. They've been hard pivoted from Combat specialists with Dark Lances sprinkled in, to Dark Lances specialists that are very hard to interact with if played well. I'd probably put them somewhere in the middle with Sisters, Custodes and Votann. All not where they once were in 9th edition but all have decent play

[DemonGSides]

51 minutes ago, Captain Idaho said:

Regarding the disparity between the power of factions, I hypothesised with a friend of mine that it's like some factions were done at the beginning of the development cycle, but weren't revisited sufficiently. It would explain why some unit rules just don't seem to match the faction rules, undermining them.

 

A great example is Death Guard lowering the toughness of models, yet their bolters get the benefit of Lethal hits, ignoring the faction special rule.

 

Whilst on the subject, I think GW has greatly overvalued Lethal Hits in many factions. It's a nice additional ability and does really well with more attacks, but it's just not the powerful attack to elevate things like Death Guard high enough to soar with the rest of the edition.

 

It does help Necrons, mainly because they're not paying points for a Faction ability that is undermined by Lethal Hits, but also because they get large horde types of units.

 

Even then, Necrons are about staying power over killing power, mostly.

 

Lethal Hits is just the manifestation of the old plague weapon rule, so it fits with the army. It's a bit of a nonbo with the -1T, but it stacks in that it makes the faction feel like it should be doing some damage.  There's just also so much damage mitigation in this edition so far. 

 

The problem is that none of the damage matters if your guys are made of paper-mache and just get blown off the board by every other faction. The supposed reduce to lethality in the game is not manifesting for every faction, unfortunately, especially so for a faction that used to be called disgustingly resilient. 

[jarms48]

Guard Winners and Losers:

 

Winners:

- Lord Solar: Auto take. Enough said.

- Creed: Very cheap, decent abilities, locked to Cadians is the only disadvantage.

- Primaris Psyker: Cheap, good shooting and great defensive power.

- DKOK: Can be boosted to 2+ to Hit, can resurrect models, can take 3 special weapons, just a great unit. DKOK marshal will likely give them more utility. Really need an errata on their wargear.  

- Enginseer: 4++ on vehicles is very nice, pretty cheap too.

- Commissar: Autopassing battle-shock is great, will likely be needed to maintain objectives. Sad he can't join Ogryns and Bullgryns though.

- Scout Sentinels: Do I need to say anything?

- Hellhound: Inferno cannon is still pretty good, denying cover afterwards is fantastic. 

- Demolisher: Back to being one of the best tank choices. Likely slightly too expensive for what it does. 

- Exterminator: Carried by its ability. Like other Russes slightly too expensive.

- Basilisk: It's amazing. 

- Manticore: Same as Basilisk, S tier.

- Militarum Tempestus Scions: Don't really need orders to be effective. Their inbuilt ability and jumping out of Taurox Primes will do a ton of damage. 

- Platoon Command Squad: 6+++ is super nice, 24 inch order range on attached Lord Solar is great, flag is debatable between another special weapon.

- Taurox: If you want a cheap transport take this. Decent move and disembark after advancing. 

- Taurox Prime: Missile launcher seems like the best choice now. Twin-linked Volley Guns sounds like a nerf but you're basically putting out the same number of shots in RF range. Support ability is fantastic. Pretty cheap for the firepower too.

 

Average:

- Tank Commander: Just far too expensive for what they do. 1 with the enhancement can be viable, more is likely going to hurt your list.

- Cadian Shock Troops: Their special ability is probably the weakest part. Creed, Castellans, and Cadian Command Squads do give them more utility but DKOK are better. 

- Kasrkins: Hotshot nerf hurts, lost a ton of great stratagems, still okay but not fantastic.

- Executioner: Arguably still better than standard Russ, but there's better options. Also could go down a few points.

- Militarum Tempestus Command Squad: No orders on drop still hurts, attaching to 10 T3 Sv4+ bodies isn't fantastic. If warlord you get Scions as troops but lose out on the fantastic Lord Solar.

- Cadian Castellan: Good ability, but being locked to Cadians hurts them.

- Infantry Squad: Really need an errata on their wargear. Not terrible but not great either. 

- Bullgryn: 4++ shield and mauls are the way to go. Shame their gauntlets didn't go to S5 might have been worth considering. Also a shame Regimental Preachers and/or Commissars can't attach to them.

- Rough Riders: Lost a ton of attacks and damage. Can still be okay at killing MEQ's.

- Armoured Sentinels: Still incredibly durable, lack of utility is the only thing that hurts them. Small points cut would help.

- Dorn: Durability is great, damage not so much. Nerf to Oppressor Cannon is sad, should have been S14. Nerf to Castigator is also sad, makes the Pulveriser the obvious option. 3x heavy stubbers putting out 18 shots is kind of funny though. Just too expensive. 

- Heavy Weapon Squad: Mortars are still the go to. Will still die to a stiff breeze if left in the open. 

 

Losers:

- Regimental Attaches: MoO is the only useful one and only if you're spamming Basilisks and Manticores.

- Catachans: Better than they were in 9th. Spamming them and using their scout move can set up some early objective grabs. Still suffer from only 1 attack.

- Ogryns: Actually seem to be able to do a lot of damage now, problem is they're still not incredibly durable. Might be worth testing out, can do nasty shooting from the inside of a transport Baneblade. Shame Regimental Preachers and/or Commissars can't attach to them.

- FOB: Still sad the rocket launcher doesn't get indirect. Got slightly more durable which is nice. Heavy lascannons look interesting. 

- Chimera: Compared to the Taurox it's just too expensive now. 

- Valkyrie: Lost a lot of utility. Far too expensive.

- Baneblades (all of them): The issue is the same, in competitive play on tournament tables their models are simply too big to be viable. In friendly games they're worth considering. Out of all of them I would consider the Banehammer, Banesword, Doomhammer, Stormsword they got massive improvements while the rest were sadly nerfed. 

- Straken: His support buffs have been nerfed since 9th edition, and he's limited to only joining Catachan squads.

- Gaunts Ghosts: Heavily simplified, and as a result massively nerfed. Doesn't even get leader. 

- Ogryn Bodyguard/Nork: Sadly they seem to lose the ability to tank shots on their toughness. So their durability only factors in once they're outside of the bodyguard unit. Personally if you're planning on sticking Command Squads in blob squads, just take a ripper gun and huge knife. 

- Preacher: Can't leader Ogryn or Bullgryn. 

- Marbo: Doesn't do enough damage, lost a ton of rules. 

- Harker: Sadly lost his buffing aura. 

- Servitors: Still don't seem to be worth it. Datasheet inconsistent with Marines Servitors.

- Ratlings: Their issue has always been their durability. When bolter fire wounds them on 2+ it's just a waste of points. Their damage does seem a lot better now and they're still useful for zoning out infiltrators. Should have gotten something like lone operative.

- Banewolf/Devildog: Should have been separate profiles like the Russes and Baneblades. 

- Leman Russ: Great ability, battle cannon took a massive hit though. Needs to be cheaper.

- Vanquisher: Gone from being fantastic to being too swingy. Lack of ignoring invuls really hurts. Needs to be cheaper.

- Punisher: Potential mortal wounds is interesting, but can't be relied on. Needs to be cheaper.

- Eradicator: Will this thing ever be good? Needs to be cheaper.

- Hydra: Exterminator seems better than it now. 

- Wyvern: Sadly overshadowed by other artillery options. 2D6 is too swingy. Just take mortar HWS. 

- Deathstrike: Gone from decent in 9th to terrible again. Loss of mortals is a massive blow. 

[Colman]

19 minutes ago, jarms48 said:

Creed: Very cheap, decent abilities, locked to Cadians is the only disadvantage.

Locked to Cadians? No keyword, can join infantry.

[jarms48]

28 minutes ago, Colman said:

Locked to Cadians? No keyword, can join infantry.

Literally says Cadian Shock Troops, Kasrkin, Infantry Squad. Only exception is the latter.

Edited June 23, 2023 by jarms48

[Jorin Helm-splitter]

20 hours ago, Blurf said:

SoB is weird because it feels like the designer was EXTREMELY good and understood the faction perfectly.

 

And then went meticulously line by line to make 100% SURE the index wasn't any good. It's bad in a way that feels deliberate...almost spiteful.

 

I don't know if it was spiteful, honestly for the bottom four it feels like they were designed with goals of the edition in mind. They don't have as many re-rolls, they took down the lethality, and they tried to make you take battleline. Then they just flat out ignore those goals for half the fractions, which ironically a few of them are going to get updated before these indexes. I mean as bad as DG, Votann and SoB feel right now imagine how they'll feel once 6-7 codex have been printed cause alot those books are already considered very powerful and there will be creep (and hopefully they time to work on the Admech book because they shouldn't ship it if its based on that index).