Demo charges and Cult Ambush

[Abominant]

If I give an acolyte squad 2 demo charges, and that unit uses them, then dies; after the destroyed squad of acolytes are set back up on the board via Cult Ambush, can they use their demo charges again?

 

Are the Ambushing units considered a whole new unit when they come back?

 

If your opponent is getting all the VP's for destroying the acolytes, and all abilities that trigger when a unit dies work normally, it seems like they are considered destroyed for all other intents and purposes.

Edited June 21, 2023 by Abominant

[Rogue]

It's not clear from the Ambush rules, is it.

 

It feels like the answer should be yes, you can use the demo charges again, because this is functionally a new unit (the previous acolytes haven't resurrected; these are new acolytes arriving fresh to the fight). But I can't support that view with written rules.

 

Interestingly, the same issue occurs with the cult icon. What happens if you use the charges, then that model is killed (but the unit survives) - the icon allows you to return destroyed model and you choose the demo charges. In theory, this is again a new model arriving on the field. So can he use his demo charge or not?

[Zoatibix]

My gut instinct is that the ‘once per battle’ restriction on the DC is intended to stop us from respawning the DCs.

 

[Rogue]

I'm not saying you're wrong, but I also don't think anyone can do better than "I feel it works like this" which is not ideal.

 

Leaders are specifically called out as not coming back with their unit; demo charges aren't mentioned in the same way. Probably an oversight, but potentially an argument (by omission) that charges do refresh when the bearer cycles.

[Abominant]

Yeah, these were my impressions as well. Thanks for your feedback guys.

I supposed I can send in the question to GW's customers service and hope for an FAQ later.

[Zoatibix]

It's not a new unit - we're returning the same one (potentially several times)

 

Look in the designers note where it is clear that it is the same unit is being recycled.  

 

"...a unit with this ability is destroyed, returned with this ability then subsequently destroyed again..."

 

Also "...select one unit from your army that is in cult Ambush and set that destroyed unit back up on the battlefield..." (my emphasis)

 

Leaders are called out to stop someone bringing back e.g. a Patriarch 'because it picks up it's Bodyguard's abilities' argument.

[Rogue]

Fair point. And rules trump fluff. So what you're saying is that in theory, it's new cultists flocking to the battle, but in practice, it's the original unit reviving over and over again (implausible as that may be).

 

In which case, I'd incline more towards the "can't use demo charges again" side of things. Although it could still perhaps stand to be clarified properly.

[Colman]

Think of it as the original unit melting into the shadows and fleeing  before regrouping.

[Zoatibix]

Yes, ‘in-universe’ I would imagine a mix of either fresh units arriving and a few of the survivors of destroyed/scattered units mobbing up with each other to fight again.

In rules terms, it’s the same unit.

 

The rules are trying to balance GSC being able to constantly recycle horde units in a fun and effective way (something GW have occasionally done poorly) against the opponent’s desire to do something about that. Securing the area by blocking out more and more places we can put markers, or removing existing markers allows that.

 

I would go so far as to say that they’ve done a very good job of that. 

Whether Demo Charges need to be limited when Desolators are a thing is a different question.
 

 

[Abominant]

On 6/23/2023 at 1:59 PM, Zoatibix said:

It's not a new unit - we're returning the same one (potentially several times)

 

Look in the designers note where it is clear that it is the same unit is being recycled.  

 

"...a unit with this ability is destroyed, returned with this ability then subsequently destroyed again..."

 

Also "...select one unit from your army that is in cult Ambush and set that destroyed unit back up on the battlefield..." (my emphasis)

 

Leaders are called out to stop someone bringing back e.g. a Patriarch 'because it picks up it's Bodyguard's abilities' argument.

 

Gah, you are indeed correct. I apologize for being a bit obtuse. Sometimes understanding RAW requires you to leave your common sense at the door.
When I hear the word "destroyed", my brain tries to adopt the real-world definition instead of a mechanic label.

 

If you look up DESTROYED on page 12 of the Core Rules, you will find that it just means that the model is removed from the battlefield; and that's where the definition ends.
Simply put, "destroyed" is a label for units from your army that are not on the battlefield. It doesn't really even mean that they used to be on the battlefield, because units in Strategic Reserve that never come in are also counted as destroyed by the end of the game.
 

So, following this logic, the units that have already fired once with their "One Shot" Demolition charges ability, (that have also then been destroyed, and subsequently have returned from Cult Ambush), are indeed the same units; and hence, they cannot use their charges again.

It's not intuitive, and makes little sense when the returning unit is supposed to represent new cult members flocking to the battle.
Apparently the respawning cultists are not demolition specialists, lol.

Edited July 8, 2023 by Abominant

[Xenith]

On 6/23/2023 at 10:57 PM, Rogue said:

in theory, it's new cultists flocking to the battle, but in practice, it's the original unit reviving over and over again (implausible as that may be).

 

Maybe they gave all the best gear to the units that set up first, and there weren't enough demo charges for the backup guys?