Marks, and Dark Pact, how to make the most of them.

[Cpt.Danjou]

In another thread there has been a pretty good discussion about marks, but I thought we could discus them in this thread instead.

 

First of all I am not the most experienced with this new system, but so is very few others.

Reading about Dark Pact for the first time, I got a little annoyed, it is in now way as powerful as them Emperors lapdogs OoM, if you played WoW an OoM from the healer might give the tank a fright when in a Bossfight. The Lapdogs "point, bang you are dead" ability is probably done to make it easy for them to play (IT IS A JOKE!!) The chances that we take those pesky MW when failing the leadership, is quite small, specially if we have an Icon in the unit, Damn you Terminators without Icons! I roll it every time I have the opportunity to roll it  

When I built my first list I was always giving the units Marks, with the thought about what Stratagem to use, which meant that my assault heavy army had MoS, on several things, luckily for me all of them were supposed to get in cc asap, so it was not a complete waste. When marking a unit, think carefully what its main objective is, killing high toughness targets in CC, maybe MoK is better than MoT. Mark of Khorne is typically good for possessed, who very rarely shoot, and can't bring any characters who are as fast as them. Even if you want your terminators in close combat, I find MoT great for them, first of all, mowing down stuff with combi-bolters is not the worst thing in the world, but here the Strat "skinshift" shines, reviving a dead terminator is amazing, and on top of that giving back two wounds to another terminator, what is not to like, here is the kicker, you can do it TWICE, for the cost of one. If you have another unit with a Lord in Terminator armour, he can do it on his own unit, that is potentially 10 wounds back in one turn. Sure it is also fun for units like Obliterators, potentially 8 wounds back, but I don't bring units that has a Move of four so it is not an issue for me.

 

What are your thoughts and experience with the Marks and Pacts?

 

Cpt Danjou

[TrawlingCleaner]

I've yet to get a game in unfortunately but I'm almost going the opposite way for Marks in that I'm not thinking about the Marks stratagems but more about what the Mark does with the Pact. I figured as we've not got many ways to get CP, I'm not often going to be able to beef units up with a strat and will have to rely on their Mark+Pact. There's probably a lot of overlap in which Marks we'd put where to be fair!

 

How're you finding the MoK on Possessed? Purely from looking at them on paper, I would put MoS or Undivided on Possessed because I'd want to roll more Dice to wound to try and get Devastating Wounds off but it's probably offset by getting more autowounds through!

[Lord Bane]

I don't think I'd ever give a unit with Devastating Wounds the Lethal Hits ability – I'd even be careful to keep my Helbrutes away from my Possessed! That said, my army is somewhat shoeboxed by the way my models are built and painted. My terminators are totally MoN, you just couldn't sell it any other way. They also come with combi-bolters, a heavy flamer and twin accursed weapons, so they're not benefiting from Sustained Hits and MoN all that much. That said, they would like to keep a Helbrute close.

For Possessed, I'd go Slaanesh every time - together with the MoP's movement boost, the option for an advance and charge is just too good to pass up. I'd probably keep hold of my sparse CPs just to be able to pull off that 9+D6+1+2D6+1 inch catapult launch into an enemy unit.

[sonsoftaurus]

If you’re starting from scratch it is an interesting potential jumble. Unit, pact benefits, strat benefits, character attachments+enhancement. 
 

Less complicated for vehicles, no worries about characters and some strats don’t apply; pacts main concern.

[Iron Father Ferrum]

Reposted (with edits & additions) from elsewhere:

 

My theory crafting on Marks so far:

 

Lethal Hit-inducing Marks should go on units with low/medium-strength but medium-high rate of fire.  My anecdotes is Legionaries with bolters, heavy bolter, & RCC.  They already generate enough dice to clear light infantry, but S4-5 will be wounding most medium infantry on 3s or 4s at best.  Lethal Hits sidesteps that issue.  With the overall decrease in AP across the board, there is a powerful argument that Lethal Hits is straight up inferior to Sustained Hits as the latter gives more chances to push through enemy armor saves.  My counter-argument to that is that Lethal Hits lets you completely sidestep the wound-roll and thus is actually more useful if you're forced to fire at a non-preferred target.  To clarify, light infantry is a bolter's preferred target.  S4 wounds T3 or less infantry on a 3+ and the lack of AP isn't a huge issue when the target only saves on a 5+ or 6.  However, this is a game of dice and nothing always go perfectly to plan so it's entirely possible that you'll find yourself shooting bolters at a tank.  This is a non-preferred target for a bolter.  With Sustained Hits, you still have to roll 6s to wound that tank as well as face 2+ or 3+ saves.  At least with Lethal Hits, you'll skip the need to roll those 6s at the wounding step.  The mass of fire needed to push damage through the tank's saves comes not from having more shots per bolter but from having more bolters.  The mechanics of the past two editions always seemed to promote small units, but 10th seems to promote the opposite with more limited stratagems & the mass removal of character auras.  A Legionary squad of five guys with only three bolters firing?  That's not much of a threat to anything, even with Sustained Hits.  But if you're firing seven bolters, that's enough dice to start getting some swings in the odds.

 

Sustained Hit-inducing Marks should go on high-strength, low-medium rate of fire units.  My anecdote here is lascannon Havocs.  Average dice on four lascannons is one miss and one Sustained so it flattens your Hit percentage and increases reliability. On *good* rolls you can actually generate more hits than the number of shots, which is key because you're likely to drop a few hits on your wound rolls.  Back to my anecdote, in my first game three Havocs firing lascannons at a Repulsor actually scored five hits on Turn 1 and would have killed it but for Armor of Contempt-powered saves.

 

If you're going Undivided, you'd better have a well thought out reason for that.  The RR1s is nice, but honestly the choices for the other four Marks combined with increasing the Critical rolls to 5+ is just too good.  The only exemption to this is if you have a particular target in mind for Profane Zeal.  Getting full rerolls on both hits & wounds is amazing especially if it's something with Devastating wounds.  I used it on Possessed with Sustained Hits from Dark Pact, and rerolled every wound roll that wasn't a 6.  It generated a lot of mortal wounds and wiped a whole unit of BGV with attached Judiciar.  Shooting options would be Chosen and Terminators, because then you could reroll wounds rolls for the combi-weapon's Devastating Wounds abilities as well.  An interesting idea there is that while combis have Anti-Infantry 4+ to proc MWs, the Devastating Wounds from combis work against any other target as normal so Profane Zeal's rerolls give you a greater chance to lay some mortals onto non-Infantry targets as well.  Pull Sustained Hits from your Dark Pact and do your best to get within Rapid Fire range to maximize your hits.

[SanguinaryGuardsman]

Tripple Hellbrute is probably a good place to start to solve this issue.

[Gilbertus1]

On 6/23/2023 at 5:08 PM, TrawlingCleaner said:

I've yet to get a game in unfortunately but I'm almost going the opposite way for Marks in that I'm not thinking about the Marks stratagems but more about what the Mark does with the Pact.

 

I think consideration for both mark and strats would be for the best. I guess weighing up the pros and cons. 

I'll do a bit of analysis for a few units.

 

Terminators- Rerolls to hit make God based pacts amazing, and undivided almost useless.

Tzeentch is great for Terminator Combi-bolters and the strat gives you regen models.

Slaneesh- pact is good for fists / chainfists, strat is good for footslogging termies. Deepstriking would get the same effect from Rapid Ingress.

Khorne- pact is good for units with accursed weapons, personally I don't rate the Khorne upgraded strat as its based on a roll.

Nurgle is good for footslogging Termies due to the strat, pact is best used on units with full-combi weapons

 

Obliterators-

Tzeentch- Optimal to bypass wound rolls and regen models, also the horde profile already has sustaining hits so can double up natively.

Nurgle- Sustain hits on the melta profile would be good, though the limited rolls to hit would give less extra hits. The upgraded strat is kinda useless due to the short range of their weapons

Slaanesh/Khorne- Why, unless doing so for fluffyness.

 

Havocs- 

Same as Obliterators above, would depend on what weapons they use. Tzeentch Heavy Bolters natively double up on sustain and lethal.

 

Chosen-

Tzeentch- Pact isn't that great on their bolters, strat brings back a 3W dude.

Nurgle- Pact is bad on bolters, but god for combis(2 per 5 dudes though) strat is good for footsloging (but I'd rather put them in a nurgle transport instead).

Khorne- Great to beef-up their accursed weapons, strat is useful if they are going to die but as before I don't rate the Khorne uograde.

Slaanesh- Pact good for mass of dice, strat is useless for chosen as its already built in.

 

Accursed Cultists-

Tzeentch- Useless

Nurgle- Useless except for strat, but you'd rather these guys soak up some damage, (as they regen) so yeah.

Khorne- Great to beef them up to attack monsters and tanks (just not 2+ saves so much), strat is good on them too as many will die (and come back).

Slaneesh- Torment attacks are good to sustain, normal dudes not so much. Strat is useful on them, but can get the same effect by adding Dark Commune (plus 5++)

Undivided- Great for the strat making a bucket load of rerolls is good bang for buck. The (non)pact effect is good for reliability.

 

Transports-

Nurgle- Is best for the strat, even better on a Land Raider to make their lascannons sustaining

Tzeentch- Only good for buffing combi-bolters but the strat effect is wasted.

Khorne/Slaanesh- Only do it for the lulz or being fluffy.

 

Spawn-

Slaanesh or Khorne are BiS for damage, probably slaanesh due to strat and sustain hits is better for their D2 attacks.

Tzeentch only use for the strat if you want to regen models, wasted if you intend on returning Tzeentch termies or Obliterators. Pact effect is wasted also.

Nurgle good for ranged protection, but you'd want these guys in combat yes?

Undivided- Better for them as it increases reliability, especially for 4+ to hit models. Model count to low for the strat to be useful though.

 

Cultists / Evil Guard

Tzeentch- Strat is wasted on them, though the pact ability makes their mass shooting nice. Great if you have multiple large units.

Nurgle- Strat can protect the unit for objective sitting duty, pact isn't that great on S3 guns. Could make the special weapons okish.

Khorne / Slaanesh- If you want combat cultists, take accursed instead.

 

Edited July 4, 2023 by Gilbertus1

[Cpt.Danjou]

For a unit that is supposed to kill with its shooting, Havocs, Predators, Vindicators, and in my opinion Obliterators, the Undivided mark is amazing as you really want to hit with those heavier weapons, and "Profane Zeal" makes them even better. I had Undivided on my 2 legionaries units n my last game, and forcing Scarab Terminators to 3+ save, my 4 Havoc Autocannon shots was gold, as the killed at least one very turn after they arrived. Anyone who is better at math than me maybe can calculate which heavy weapon in best for killing terminators, but I am going Autocannons as my terminator hunter units. FYI i played my autocannons as they are [Heavy], in my legionaries units.

 

Cpt. Danjou

[Gilbertus1]

12 hours ago, Cpt.Danjou said:

For a unit that is supposed to kill with its shooting, Havocs, Predators, Vindicators, and in my opinion Obliterators, the Undivided mark is amazing as you really want to hit with those heavier weapons, and "Profane Zeal" makes them even better. I had Undivided on my 2 legionaries units n my last game, and forcing Scarab Terminators to 3+ save, my 4 Havoc Autocannon shots was gold, as the killed at least one very turn after they arrived. Anyone who is better at math than me maybe can calculate which heavy weapon in best for killing terminators, but I am going Autocannons as my terminator hunter units. FYI i played my autocannons as they are [Heavy], in my legionaries units.

 

Cpt. Danjou

 

Very true.

 

I had been considering undivided for my Land Raider. 

I instead decided to go Nurgle as using the strat and the bulk of the LR I could potentially shutdown my opponents fkrst turn long range shooting.

 

In terms of shooting prowess, the Nurgle mark was about the same as Undivided with the lascannons against regular tanks, though against T12 or higher the reroll wounds from the undivided strat pushed its damage potential higher than the Nurgle mark.

All up to preference I think, defense or offense.

 

 

 

[MasterDeath]

My MVP last game (vs GK) was a Triple Plasma forgefiend of nurgle. 3d3 shots with blast and exploding 5+ wrecks even Terminators.

[Maximus]

I'm just starting my CSM army and am not 100% sure about the whole Marks and Dark Pacts thing. I understand what the pacts do with regard to Lethal or Sustained Hits in shooting or melee, but what I'm not sure is whether I can stack them, for example a model with a Nurgle mark can also do a Khorne dark pact.

I'm leaning towards the idea that they can stack, but would like some definite answer so as to avoid any confusion in game.

Thanks.

[TrawlingCleaner]

4 minutes ago, Maximus said:

I'm just starting my CSM army and am not 100% sure about the whole Marks and Dark Pacts thing. I understand what the pacts do with regard to Lethal or Sustained Hits in shooting or melee, but what I'm not sure is whether I can stack them, for example a model with a Nurgle mark can also do a Khorne dark pact.

I'm leaning towards the idea that they can stack, but would like some definite answer so as to avoid any confusion in game.

Thanks.

 

So every unit in the codex can do a Dark Pact. When you do a Dark Pact you choose which part of the Pact you want the unit to have Sustained Hits or Lethal Hits

 

The Mark you've chosen for the unit (that cannot be changed during the game) then gives you a bonus to your Dark Pact based on which part of the Pact you chose, either Sustained or Lethal. You cannot benefit from a Mark your unit does not have

 

An Example would be:

I have a Nurgle marked unit

They declare a Dark Pact and choose Sustained Hits

They have the mark of Nurgle so they benefit from their Sustained Hits activating on 5s and 6s to hit

They may not choose to use another Mark, they only recieve the benefit of the Mark of Nurgle when they've used the Sustained Hits part of a Dark Pact

They can still use Lethal Hits but they don't get any additional benefits

 

The Mark of Undivided doesn't specify which part of the Dark Pact you need to use to get a benefit, it just needs a unit to have done a Dark Pact

The only exception to the above is Abaddon as he (and his unit, whilst he's alive) has all 5 marks of Chaos so can benefit from all 5

 

Hope that helps

[LSM]

9 hours ago, TrawlingCleaner said:

An Example would be:

I have a Nurgle marked unit

They declare a Dark Pact and choose Sustained Hits

They have the mark of Nurgle so they benefit from their Sustained Hits activating on 5s and 6s to hit

They may not choose to use another Mark, they only recieve the benefit of the Mark of Nurgle when they've used the Sustained Hits part of a Dark Pact

They can still use Lethal Hits but they don't get any additional benefits

 

Small clarification: Nurgle marked units get the 5+ Critical Hits on Shooting attacks. (ie. if you Dark Pact in close combat with a Nurgle unit and choose [Sustained Hits], you don't receive a bonus.)

 

And as mentioned the 5+ Critical Hits benefit can be used to trigger multiple rules. For example:

• I have a Tzeentch marked unit with Heavy Bolters (which inherently have [Sustained Hits]).
• They declare a Dark Pact when Shooting and choose [Lethal Hits].
• They have the Mark of Tzeentch so they benefit from 5+ Critical Hits. Any To-Hit Rolls of 5+ will now trigger both the Dark Pact's [Lethal Hits] and the Heavy Bolter's [Sustained Hits].
• They may not choose to use another Mark; they only receive the benefit of the Mark of Tzeentch when they've used the [Lethal Hits] in the Shooting phase part of a Dark Pact.
• They can still use [Sustained Hits] but they don't get the 5+ Crititcal Hits when they do, nor would the Dark Pact's [Sustained Hits] stack with the Heavy Bolter's [Sustained Hits].

Edited October 12, 2023 by LSM

[Dr_Ruminahui]

One final rules interaction that is relevant is the Hell brute's ability to use both aspects of the dark pacts rule at the same time.  This works the same way as the Tzeench unit with heavy bolters described by @LSM.  So, if you have a unit that can trigger critical hits by declaring a particular half of the dark pact rules (so, the above tzeench unit declaring Lethal Hits), the other half  of dark pacts (Sustained Hits in this example) also triggers on a 5+ as it triggers on a critical hit, which happens now on a 5+. 

 

If you were to declare the other half (Sustained Hits), you wouldn't trigger the 5+ critical, so even though you also got Lethal Hits due to the Hell brute, you wouldn't get the expanded criticals - so don't do this! 

Edited October 12, 2023 by Dr_Ruminahui

[Maximus]

Thanks  @TrawlingCleaner, @LSM and @Dr_Ruminahui that clears it up for me. I had forgotten that some weapons already have one or the other of the dark pact abilities built in (although they normally only trigger on 6). I'll keep my eye on that when allocating marks to my units (unless I want to maximise a particular one).