Good combos?

[Commander Nicky]

Anyone who knows some good combos for the new SM?

 

I myself have considered the idear of having an Primaris Captain with Bolter Disipline attached to a 10 unit sternguard with bolt riles. the idear is the have the captain using the Adaptive strategy as much as is necessary to keep them in devastator doctrine. When using the Bolter Displine this will mean, that critical hits will cause MW on 5+ in addition to the substained hits this will vause, maximizing the effect. I myself would put two heavy bolters on these guys and keep them within a Repulsor, have them disembark when close enough to use the rapid fire rule. The downside is that this unit will be a high target priority for the enemy and they have no great armour...

 

Another combo which was descriped by another Gentleman (a great thanks to him ) Was placing a biker captain with the honour vehement in a units outrider, also using hte Adaptive strategy to keep them in the assualt doctrine to maximal effect. Since their weapons are [assault] and they are in the Assault doctrine, they can advance, shoot and charge in the same turn, givning them a lot of movement + the captain will have +2S and +2A to his attack (I would give him a PF or TH) to really roll in.

 

Any other who have considered a few new combos?

 

 

[CCE1981]

Unfortunately Bolter Discipline causes Critical Hits on the Hit Roll, not the Wound Roll so you won’t proc Devastating Wounds on a 5+.

[Commander Nicky]

Ahhh.... bugger. sorry...

But will it also mean, that combi will cause MW on infantry with their anti?

[CCE1981]

Yes, the "Anti-" adjusts the Critical Wound Roll against the given target.

Edited June 23, 2023 by CCE1981

[Lemondish]

I have a Librarian planned to go with my Sternguard unit to bestow a 4+ invulnerable save.

 

I also like the combo of an Apothecary and Lieutenant with a 10 model unit of Hellblasters in a Repulsor. Lethal Hits helps boost the amount of high AP wounds that sneak through and the Apothecary helps piece back together those Marines that blow themselves up.

 

I like the idea of the new Apothecary Biologis with a Gravis Captain attached to truly any max-sized Gravis unit. Lethal Hits once again just makes them a tad bit more effective for sneaking through wounds while the Gravis Captain ends up being a particularly effective beat stick to boost up the OC of the unit after getting into a tussle.

 

Bladeguard with a Captain and Ancient rushing out of a Land Raider feel like an effective problem solving tool as well.

 

Getting away from the Leader based combos, I think Incursors and SS Thunderstrikes will be mainstays in most early lists as both units bring some strong support to the table for the rest of your army to leverage. I'm curious enough to give the Invictor a try to dissuade/punish targeting the Incursors as well as a solid overwatch resource in the early turns.

[SkimaskMohawk]

Lots of pretty solid but obvious combos.

 

Librarian or apothecary with the lethal hits on a unit like hellblasters or krak desolators. Terminator captain with assault terminators out of deepstrike. Terminator librarian with a block of terminators. Apothecary biologis with aggressors. Captain+Lt/banner with melee unit. Techmarine with vehicles. Land speeder with blast weapons, incursors/the one storm speeder with good weapons. Land Raider crusader/redeemer with good melee unit. 

 

There's obviously more, especially with firstborn units with more expansive character options and some of the doctrine flexibility and enhancements.

 

 

 

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

Jump chappy w/ RAS. Give the sgt a shield.

landspeeder tornado and you can be handing out a lot of MWs

[Tacitus]

10 hours ago, Commander Nicky said:

Ahhh.... bugger. sorry...

But will it also mean, that combi will cause MW on infantry with their anti?

Yes, you likely want sustained hits not Lethal hits.  Sustained Hits give you more hits with wound rolls for the mortal trigger, Lethal Hits skip the Wound Roll and the MW trigger.

[L30n1d4s]

Best combos I have had so far are:

 

1 - Chaplain on Bike with 6 Bikers (1 Grav Pistol/2 Grav Guns) -- Fast unit for grabbing objectives, which is also decently durable with 23 wounds at T5 3+. Chaplain gives unit shooting Devastating Wounds against a selected target within 12". Combined with Sustained Hits 1 (DW Mission Tactics) , +1 to hit from an Incursor "marker unit", and the Grav weapons Anti-Vehicle 2+ rule and this unit easily puts 10-12 MWs a turn on any vehicle it targets. Chaplain also gives them +1 to wound on the charge, when necessary.

 

2 - Deathwatch Grav Cannon/Missile Launcher Centurions with Oath of Moment - Combine this with +1 to Hit from Incursors and whichever DW Special Ammo strat you need (Hellfire Rounds against Infantry/Monsters, Kraken Rounds for more range and AP, Dragonflies Rounds for Assault and Ignore Cover on their shooting weapons) and this squad can just mulch about any target you point it at. You can even bounce it around the Battlefield for better LOS/avoiding enemy counter attacks with the DW Teleportarium strat... the only weakness that I have found so far is their high CP usage. 

 

3 - Sternguard with Pedro Kantor and Lieutenant with "Bolter Drill" enhancement attached -- Once per game, Pedro gives them +1A to ALL their weapons (shooting included) until the end of the turn. That means, in Rapid Fire range, the 10 Sternguard Bolters are putting out 40 x S4 AP-1 Devastating Wound shots for that turn... have them wipe out a unit with Oath of Moment, then use their special ability to shoot at another unit (again, benefitting from the +1A from Pedro). The Lieutenant also gives them Lethal Hits, Fall Back and Shoot, and Sustained Hits 1 (and, in Devastator Doctrine, his Lethal/Sustained Hits go off on 5+s).

[Minsc]

Lieutenant with Bolter Drill and an Apothecary in a unit of Hellblasters.

Deadly combo and the Apoth revives Hellblasters who get a bit... overzealous with overcharge.

 

I'd avoid putting a Lieutenant in Sternguard as every Lethal Hit is one less potential Devastating Wound.

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

Gravis captain with bolter discipline and aggressors is looking good

gravis captain-bolter discipline with heavy intercessors.

[CCE1981]

I am starting to like the idea of two units of Eradicators with an attached Biologis.  These two units can both be placed into Strategic Reserves in a 2k game.   Add a third Biologis and Captain in Gravis Armor attached to a 10-man Heavy Intercessors squads.

[Tacitus]

37 minutes ago, CCE1981 said:

I am starting to like the idea of two units of Eradicators with an attached Biologis.  These two units can both be placed into Strategic Reserves in a 2k game.   Add a third Biologis and Captain in Gravis Armor attached to a 10-man Heavy Intercessors squads.

Why?  The Biologis requires melee to trigger, and can't heal. 

12 hours ago, L30n1d4s said:

Best combos I have had so far are:

 

1 - Chaplain on Bike with 6 Bikers (1 Grav Pistol/2 Grav Guns) -- Fast unit for grabbing objectives, which is also decently durable with 23 wounds at T5 3+. Chaplain gives unit shooting Devastating Wounds against a selected target within 12". Combined with Sustained Hits 1 (DW Mission Tactics) , +1 to hit from an Incursor "marker unit", and the Grav weapons Anti-Vehicle 2+ rule and this unit easily puts 10-12 MWs a turn on any vehicle it targets. Chaplain also gives them +1 to wound on the charge, when necessary.

 

2 - Deathwatch Grav Cannon/Missile Launcher Centurions with Oath of Moment - Combine this with +1 to Hit from Incursors and whichever DW Special Ammo strat you need (Hellfire Rounds against Infantry/Monsters, Kraken Rounds for more range and AP, Dragonflies Rounds for Assault and Ignore Cover on their shooting weapons) and this squad can just mulch about any target you point it at. You can even bounce it around the Battlefield for better LOS/avoiding enemy counter attacks with the DW Teleportarium strat... the only weakness that I have found so far is their high CP usage. 

 

3 - Sternguard with Pedro Kantor and Lieutenant with "Bolter Drill" enhancement attached -- Once per game, Pedro gives them +1A to ALL their weapons (shooting included) until the end of the turn. That means, in Rapid Fire range, the 10 Sternguard Bolters are putting out 40 x S4 AP-1 Devastating Wound shots for that turn... have them wipe out a unit with Oath of Moment, then use their special ability to shoot at another unit (again, benefitting from the +1A from Pedro). The Lieutenant also gives them Lethal Hits, Fall Back and Shoot, and Sustained Hits 1 (and, in Devastator Doctrine, his Lethal/Sustained Hits go off on 5+s).

Lethal Hits cuts into your DW.

[Lemondish]

Just now, Tacitus said:

Why?  The Biologis requires melee to trigger, and can't heal. 

Only for his OC buff, which is personally why I run him with a Captain in a big Eradicator or HINT unit. That dude's enough of a beat stick to trigger it, and that's a unit that would benefit from a free Stratagem.

 

Lethal Hits on the other hand is such a great thing for a unit that gets that many rerolls baseline, in the case of the Eradicators, so on that alone he feels worthwhile.

[Tacitus]

TBH, I'd do it with Aggressors if I really wanted to do it.  The Beatstick Captain is unlikely to do it on his own unless the unit is already small/weakened.  6 Twin Linked Power Fists will easily help that along.   To be fair, I just don't like the Biologis.  He doesn't make any sense to me.   Making the OC9 the swap for +1CP would make sense so he can still heal.   Making him indifferent to the death of his battle brothers is just so out of character for the army. 

[Lemondish]

18 minutes ago, Tacitus said:

The Beatstick Captain is unlikely to do it on his own unless the unit is already small/weakened.

My mistake, I completely missed that it said unit, not model.

 

In which case, we're agreed, he's unlikely to do it on his own, but I'm also not bringing him to lean on that effect anyway. The Lethal Hits bit is my jam.

 

I'd run Aggressors if I didn't think they were the dumbest looking model in the game. But on paper, they look like a solid home.

[Tacitus]

He may actually help the Aggressors quite a bit:  I think they lost a LOT of their appeal when their gauntlets when half shots and Twin Linked - especially the poor Flamer versions that don't have a grenade harness.  But Lethal Hits on nearly 20 Twin Linked (But meh, its the OOM target) Power Fists is something to keep in mind.  That could even help them against vehicles, against the OOM target, you're looking at 13-14 hits,  2 Crits, 2 woundings, reroll 10 failures for another Crit and a half and Wounding and a half each for about 7 Mortal and 7 damage before -2 Armor saves total of about 10-11 damage before strats  (And Strats are unlikely to modify much - especially for value - 1 or 2 CP for Lance and an additional -1 AP is a pretty hefty cost)  - and that's before the 16 or so attacks from Calgar and his Victrix - or a more normal 6 or so from a Gravis Captain. 

 

I know you said you don't like the looks, but others are reading too, and I got curious.  I still don't like the Biologis, but Lethal Hitting aggressors I like. 

[Lemondish]

58 minutes ago, Tacitus said:

I know you said you don't like the looks, but others are reading too, and I got curious.

 

Oh yeah, by all means, theorycraft away, it's enthralling to read no matter the models involved 

 

I do think an important thing to note about the flamers is just how effective they are for Overwatch, but in that case you aren't going to add a Biologis there as the Lethal Hits aren't a thing for torrent weapons. The core strats are the ones I imagine will be getting most of our Captain's attention, at least for Gladius. Other Detachments like Deathwatch do have more general use ones.

[Tacitus]

I don't know about that, I've looked pretty hard on the "paired" strats - Adaptive Strategy + Storm of Fire/Honour The Chapter or maybe Squad Tactics with a little Heroic Intervention.  That looks to me like what the Captain(s) are for:  I want this unit to be in this doctrine - or A doctrine if its really versatile - pretty much the whole game, and occaisionally I want to dial it up to 11 with extra AP or something - I think that's the real strength of the freebie repeat comes in - This squad is in Devastator, that Squad is in Assault doubling up the Adaptive Strategy in your Command Phase.

[Sir Clausel]

I think a thing of note about flamer aggressors is that they dont really need OoM to be effective. They dont roll to hit on their ranged and they reroll both ranged and melee to wound. So they are good to use against non OoM targets. 

[Tacitus]

12 minutes ago, Sir Clausel said:

I think a thing of note about flamer aggressors is that they dont really need OoM to be effective. They dont roll to hit on their ranged and they reroll both ranged and melee to wound. So they are good to use against non OoM targets. 

Lethal Hitting a Land Raider to death with Flamers has some comedic appeal, but I'm still not sold.  Everything you mentioned except not rolling to hit also applies to the boltstorms.  D6+1 auto hits vs D6+3 roll (3+) to hit from further out doesn't feel equivalent.  I mean it probably averages out the number of hits, but that extra 6" of range feels significantly bigger than Authohitting on Overwatch. 

 

Edit to Add:  In fact that may even be my problem with the flamer Aggressors.  They overlap.  Inceptors have fairly different preferred targets for their weapon swap.  Same with Eliminators.  Other units with weapon swaps end up switching their preferred phase - like Reivers.   Maybe some of it is left over "favoritism" towards "bolt" weapons from previous editions too. 

Edited June 26, 2023 by Tacitus

[Tacitus]

Been doing some more theorycrafting:

 

Phobos Libby with Phobos armor unit we've been over:

 

Phobos Captain with Infiltrator Squad pops Freebie Strat on the Infiltrators, on a 5+ you gain a CP. 

Roboute Guilliman drops another Freebie Strat on the Infiltrators.  On a 5+,you gain a CP. 

 

I think I'd still prefer the Phobos Libby so that both they and Bobby G have Super Stealth, but getting "refunded" CP you didn't spend has some comedic value. And I was already thinking of swapping Incursors for Infiltrators as his Super Stealth bodybuard because of the Omni-Scramblers.  Can't shoot me unless within 12, and can't deepstrike within 12.  The Primarch decides when he wants to fight. 

 

Maybe do both, Libby with Infiltrators for the DS bubble,  Libby with the Incursors for...  Sustained Hits on the paired combat knives and some minor differences on the guns?  I thought the combat knives were better than that.

 

Ooh.  Reivers are Phobos.  And get 1 more attack from their Combat knife.

 

Of course I'm also pretty sure I prefer to surround him with Terminators anyway. 

 

The new Lieutenant with Combi-weapon is also a cheap way of giving Guilliman Lone Operative because he is a Lone Operative Infantry by himself. 

 

By the way everything that works for Guilliman should also work for the Lion.   (And it would even be sort of fluffy to have the Lion stalking his prey while surrounded by sneaky Phoboses trying to steal my prec... oh wait.  Wrong game.)

 

The whole thing behind the 12" Can't Shoot Me Bubble is a little like US Aircraft Carrier Battle Groups.  There's a bubble.  Nothing lives inside that bubble without my permission.   Its sort of a weird Deathstar in that not everything is an unkillable monstrosity that tears apart Titans with their off hand - but it's just so difficult to engage with it outside of it's own terms.  Normal Move + Charge is 13" - if you do move, but don't want to get Heroically Intervened (or charged on my next turn, you need to end up between 9 and 12 inches away along with some way to move after you shoot... 

 

Whoops, got a little tangential there.  As you can see there are a number of dirty tricks to be had with Phobos this time around.  Be interesting to see what Raven Guard can do after they get their codex/supplement. 

 

Tiggy is a tough nut to crack - losing the 4++ Unit shield for -1to hit, and 4+++ vs psychics and Mortals, while losing the ability to join Hellblasters makes him hard to plavce. 

Edited June 26, 2023 by Tacitus

[Minsc]

6 hours ago, Tacitus said:

To be fair, I just don't like the Biologis.  He doesn't make any sense to me.   

 

He's basically a stopgap, there to provide Lethal Hits to Gravis-units as there (currently) doesn't exist a Lt. in Gravis Armour-model that we can attach to said units. 

If GW where to make a Lt. in Gravis model that provides Lethal Hits at any point, they better rework the rules for the Biologis because at that point I'd agree that he no longer serves a purpose.

 

Edited June 26, 2023 by Minsc

[CCE1981]

8 hours ago, Tacitus said:

Why?  The Biologis requires melee to trigger, and can't heal. 

For Lethal Hits, even with re-roll needing 5s to wound is a bit of a stretch.  Lethal hits helps push through that many more wounds.

 

Trying to put forth as much anti-tank and anti-infantry as I can.   Those Eradicators have proven themselves reliable and I am comfortable with their points cost.

 

 

I tried out a couple of games with a 10-man Sniper Scout Squad and a Phobos Captain with Bolter Discipline.  It didn’t feel great against Necrons or Daemons, against squishier targets it would have been a bit overkill.   I don’t think it’s a great unit to lean into. A couple a 5-mans I think would be good against something like Guard or maybe Tau, but that seems to be a fair number of points that are better spent elsewhere.

[SkimaskMohawk]

From my 3 games of 10th I've really got the impression that CP are best used for defensive combos. Doing something like AoC and Smoke on a vehicle is way harder to get than a variety of the offensive combos, and imo is more impactful than a -1 or the non assault doctrines; even heroic intervention i think is a tough sell in the face of some of the defensive buffs. That being said, I've only really played against shooting lists and maybe HI is going to be a game changer later on.

 

It's still going to be hard not to use the captain freebie on AoC instead during the turn though.