Good combos?

[Tacitus]

2 hours ago, SkimaskMohawk said:

From my 3 games of 10th I've really got the impression that CP are best used for defensive combos. Doing something like AoC and Smoke on a vehicle is way harder to get than a variety of the offensive combos, and imo is more impactful than a -1 or the non assault doctrines; even heroic intervention i think is a tough sell in the face of some of the defensive buffs. That being said, I've only really played against shooting lists and maybe HI is going to be a game changer later on.

 

It's still going to be hard not to use the captain freebie on AoC instead during the turn though.

Heroic Intervention is going to be tough to use perfectly no matter what.  Any opponent worth it should know its coming, and because they can somewhat control the timing, they can decide which unit of yours gets to use it - assuming any of them do.   Worst case they don't charge at all, so you never get the trigger to use it.  If they do charge, they're smart to charge the unit you most want to use it on so you can't.   The only way you're getting it off is if you have at least two units it could be used on. 

 

But I think you're underselling the offensive combos:  Terminator TH/SS squad or SB/PF squad too - Assault Doctrine, Honour The Chapter.  TH or PF are now S8 -3 wounding on 4's to vs the T9 Carnifex.  Or vs that T11 Tervigon.  That's a big swing from wounding on 5's on 15 attacks. 

 

OOM target, 15 attacks 12 hit, 3 reroll for just under 3 more hits.  Call it 14.  4+ to wound, 7 wound, reroll for another 3.5 10.5 woundings  2+ save -3 is 7x2 = 14 damage out of 16 wounds. 

OOM target 15 attacks, 12 hit, 3 reroll for just under 3 more hits, call it 15 for easier math.  5+ to wound.  5 Woundings, reroll 10 fails for another 3 woundings, 8 total vs 2+ -2 = 4 unsaved for 8 damage out of 16 wounds. 

 

That's the difference between killing Old One Eye, and watching him regenerate D3 wounds because he has 1 left. 

[SkimaskMohawk]

16 minutes ago, Tacitus said:

But I think you're underselling the offensive combos:  Terminator TH/SS squad or SB/PF squad too - Assault Doctrine, Honour The Chapter.  TH or PF are now S8 -3 wounding on 4's to vs the T9 Carnifex.  Or vs that T11 Tervigon.  That's a big swing from wounding on 5's on 15 attacks. 

 

OOM target, 15 attacks 12 hit, 3 reroll for just under 3 more hits.  Call it 14.  4+ to wound, 7 wound, reroll for another 3.5 10.5 woundings  2+ save -3 is 7x2 = 14 damage out of 16 wounds. 

OOM target 15 attacks, 12 hit, 3 reroll for just under 3 more hits, call it 15 for easier math.  5+ to wound.  5 Woundings, reroll 10 fails for another 3 woundings, 8 total vs 2+ -2 = 4 unsaved for 8 damage out of 16 wounds. 

 

That's the difference between killing Old One Eye, and watching him regenerate D3 wounds because he has 1 left. 

 

Idk about your math; what unit are you using and what weapon, against what target? Powerfist terminators on oath average 5.18 damage to OOE; with Honour during Assault doctrine it jumps to 9.5. THSS on oath do 4.73 to OOE; with the other two they do 8.11.

 

Regardless, I guess I think about it in this way: if I'm oathing a target, its the target I'm going to be focussing my army onto; it's the unit I need dead the most. So why am I not shooting it with my anti tank in some way? One  heavy laser destroyer volley from an executioner averages 7 damage to OOE during oath, meaning I don't need to use any CP to clean him up, and I can save that and possibly the doctrine for some other time.

 

 

[Tacitus]

3 minutes ago, SkimaskMohawk said:

 

Idk about your math; what unit are you using and what weapon, against what target? Powerfist terminators on oath average 5.18 damage to OOE; with Honour during Assault doctrine it jumps to 9.5. THSS on oath do 4.73 to OOE; with the other two they do 8.11.

 

Regardless, I guess I think about it in this way: if I'm oathing a target, its the target I'm going to be focussing my army onto; it's the unit I need dead the most. So why am I not shooting it with my anti tank in some way? One  heavy laser destroyer volley from an executioner averages 7 damage to OOE during oath, meaning I don't need to use any CP to clean him up, and I can save that and possibly the doctrine for some other time.

 

 

That was power fists - 5 fists, 3 attacks each 3+ to hit +1 for Fury of the First, S8 +1 to wound for Lance, -2 +-1 to save for Honour. - I was rounding for easy math, and may have gotten it wrong in my head but if I'm right you can be punching holes in Carnifex with Terminators and Oath, while dumping two Gladiator Lancers into the Tyrranofex and delete two big bugs.  The Lancers don't - on average - need Oath and can delete the even bigger bugs.   If you're really worried about it I suppose you could OOM the Carnifexes?  Carnifexi? to get the +1 and rerolls for the Terminators, while you Master of Battle (which doesn't give the +1 to Terminators because its not technically an OOM target) from Guilliman onto the Tyrannofex for the Lancers. 

 

Don't get me wrong, OOM is great, but if you're pouring your whole army into something, I'm not sure it needs OOM, there are times it might be better to OOM the second priority target you've got other assets that need a boost against as opposed to the Big Number One Threat everyone else is shooting.   Plus it's "free" buff stacking on the Terminators. 

 

And maybe I'm coming at this differently philosophically as well.  The best defended units are the ones that can't get shot because the units that can shoot at it are dead.  Or because I'm working on CP Battery/Generation ideas too.  I mean the Apothecary bodyguard death giving you 1CP isn't quite what I had in mind, but Calgar generates one per Battle round, a Freebie strat on the Infiltrators every turn should generate one per Battle Round and a half or so.   5CP for Command Phases, 5CP for Calgar, 3 and a half or so for the Infiltrators is 13 CP in a game. 

[SkimaskMohawk]

I mean if you're doing an ultramarine battery then you'll definitely have CP to spare and there's no need to be frugal; spend them where you need them. Especially if you're able to double up on Oath with Gman to spread that huge spike in power.

 

But if you're not doing ultras and/or an infiltrator battery then you have to be far more careful with your CP, and a bit more tight on the units in the list/gameplan. Pretty thematic for the ultras to get so much flexibility though.

[Tacitus]

It doesn't work as well for the Lion, but All Marines can do the Infiltrator CP Gen - most of the other factions I've browsed have at least a unit or two with a similar CP Gen mechanic.  I'm kind of surprised we haven't seen more about this yet.  Also that there isn't a Strat mechanic for Sisters and to a lesser extent Eldar to trade CP for dice surprises me.  We can trade CP for extra doctrines. 

[Karhedron]

16 hours ago, Tacitus said:

Heroic Intervention is going to be tough to use perfectly no matter what.  Any opponent worth it should know its coming, and because they can somewhat control the timing, they can decide which unit of yours gets to use it - assuming any of them do.   Worst case they don't charge at all, so you never get the trigger to use it.  If they do charge, they're smart to charge the unit you most want to use it on so you can't.   The only way you're getting it off is if you have at least two units it could be used on.

 

I think that even just having the CPs for a Heroic intervention is going to force the opponent to think very long and hard about where and what he charges, The more choices you force your opponent to make, the more likely they are to start making mistakes.

[CCE1981]

5 minutes ago, Karhedron said:

 

I think that even just having the CPs for a Heroic intervention is going to force the opponent to think very long and hard about where and what he charges, The more choices you force your opponent to make, the more likely they are to start making mistakes.

If you want to Heroic Intervention Primaris Company Champions are only 55 pts and their unit can do it for free.  They also don’t have the rider limiting how many can do it.  So you would be able to do it up to FIVE times in one turn.  Once as normal, a Captain, then three Primaris Company Champions.

[Tacitus]

38 minutes ago, CCE1981 said:

If you want to Heroic Intervention Primaris Company Champions are only 55 pts and their unit can do it for free.  They also don’t have the rider limiting how many can do it.  So you would be able to do it up to FIVE times in one turn.  Once as normal, a Captain, then three Primaris Company Champions.

 I think the limiting factor is how many units will be in range not how many times you can afford it.

[CCE1981]

I am providing possibilities, it doesn’t matter that someone won’t be able to trigger all of them.  Plus, the fact you can do that so many times means that you have a lot better chance for it to happen somewhere.   2CP is a lot, but having four ways to trigger it at 0 CP and only one of them is restrictive means you can do a lot with it.

[Karhedron]

32 minutes ago, CCE1981 said:

If you want to Heroic Intervention Primaris Company Champions are only 55 pts and their unit can do it for free.  They also don’t have the rider limiting how many can do it.  So you would be able to do it up to FIVE times in one turn.  Once as normal, a Captain, then three Primaris Company Champions.

 

Good point. Despite their BGV styling, the Champions are quite flexible and can be attached to a decent number of squads.

[arnesh88]

Chaplain in Terminator Armour is my preferred character to attach to my terminators. The +1 Wound in Combat can be very helpful, and the 4+ FNP against Mortal Wounds is a solid defensive buff.

 

Primaris Techmarine with The Honour Vehement enhancement if you got the points. The enhancement adds the bonuses to all of the attacks, and the servo arms have Extra Attacks, resulting in +2/+4 Attacks in combat. Helpful to charge in with a Dreadnought to help with clearing chaff. Same thing can be done with Gravis Captain, though I think the Artificer Armour upgrade works better for him because he halves the damage for each attack.

 

 

Edited June 27, 2023 by arnesh88
spelling

[Dracos]

I don’t understand what they’ve done to the Apothecary 

 

just give me my dang Gravis Chaplain cuss it :)

Edited June 27, 2023 by Dracos

[Kallas]

1 hour ago, arnesh88 said:

The enhancement adds the bonuses to all of the attacks, and the servo arms have Extra Attacks, resulting in +2/+4 Attacks in combat.

This won't work, because [Extra Attacks] specifically says that you can't modify the attacks characteristic of that weapon

Spoiler

 

[CCE1981]

Hmmm, definitely missed that.  However, only the number can’t be modified.  The damage, ap, and strength can be modified.

[Djangomatic82]

Ive been thinking that an Impulsor with a Bellicatus missile array,5 Desolators and a Techmarine Lone Operative standing next to the Impulsor would be an interesting platform.

-Impulsor has 3.5/2/1 Bellicatus missiles, 3/6 heavy stubber shots, 4/8 storm bolter shots Base

Then it has Firing Deck 6, so add either...

-4 Superkrack/4 D3 Castellan shots, D6 Vengor shots,

-All hitting on BS3+ using the Impulsors Ballistic skill,

-then use the Techmarines Blessing of the Omnisiah ability to give the Impulsor +1 to hit, so you end up with...

alot of shots, hitting on BS2+, with solid anti tank output using the Krak/Superkrack missiles, solid indirect volume of fire, and a decent chassis.

* For that last firing deck slot, i was looking at the HQ's that could be attached to the Desolators and the Primaris Libby looks like the best option. You would get an 6th shot out of the tank and could utilize the Smite-focused witchfire attack. D6 BS2+ S6 Ap-2 D3 attacks and the Impulsor takes the hazardous wounds test, so only loses 3 wounds if it fails.

 

Edited June 28, 2023 by Djangomatic82

[Tacitus]

9 hours ago, arnesh88 said:

Chaplain in Terminator Armour is my preferred character to attach to my terminators. The +1 Wound in Combat can be very helpful, and the 4+ FNP against Mortal Wounds is a solid defensive buff.

 

Primaris Techmarine with The Honour Vehement enhancement if you got the points. The enhancement adds the bonuses to all of the attacks, and the servo arms have Extra Attacks, resulting in +2/+4 Attacks in combat. Helpful to charge in with a Dreadnought to help with clearing chaff. Same thing can be done with Gravis Captain, though I think the Artificer Armour upgrade works better for him because he halves the damage for each attack.

 

 

Pretty much.  That +1 to Wound makes the S8 power fist somewhat/usually effectively S15  and the 4+++ FNP vs Mortals added to the 2+ and 4++ vs just about antyhing non-mortal means they're never worse than a 4+.   

 

None of the other HQ's really touch that for force multiplier:

Rites of Battle comes close for half of that, but Reroll Charges isn't anywhere near the other half.

 

4+FNP vs Psychic when you already have a 4++ invuln against non-mortal pyschics isn't even close.

Sustained hits isn't bad but isn't as good as either +1 to wound or Rites of Battle. 

 

7 hours ago, CCE1981 said:

Hmmm, definitely missed that.  However, only the number can’t be modified.  The damage, ap, and strength can be modified.

And it can benefit from Sustained/Lethal hits. 

[Tacitus]

47 minutes ago, Djangomatic82 said:

Ive been thinking that an Impulsor with a Bellicatus missile array,5 Desolators and a Techmarine would be an interesting platform.

-Impulsor has 3.5/2/1 Bellicatus missiles, 3/6 heavy stubber shots, 4/8 storm bolter shots Base

Then it has Firing Deck 6, so add either...

-4 Superkrack/4 D3 Castellan shots, D6 Vengor shots,

-All hitting on BS3+ using the Impulsors Ballistic skill,

-then use the Techmarines Blessing of the Omnisiah ability to give the Impulsor +1 to hit, so you end up with...

alot of shots, hitting on BS2+, with solid anti tank output using the Krak/Superkrack missiles, solid indirect volume of fire, and a decent chassis.

* For that last firing deck slot, i was looking at the HQ's that could be attached to the Desolators and the Primaris Libby looks like the best option. You would get an 6th shot out of the tank and could utilize the Smite-focused witchfire attack. D6 BS2+ S6 Ap-2 D3 attacks and the Impulsor takes the hazardous wounds test, so only loses 3 wounds if it fails.

 

firing deck allows 1 model to shoot ONE WEAPON per X.  Which means each Desolator has to choose their Missile OR Castellan launcher. 

[Lemondish]

1 hour ago, Tacitus said:

firing deck allows 1 model to shoot ONE WEAPON per X.  Which means each Desolator has to choose their Missile OR Castellan launcher. 

Which explains why they presented it in that format, one choice of either 4 Superkrak/4D3 Castellan.

[Tacitus]

26 minutes ago, Lemondish said:

Which explains why they presented it in that format, one choice of either 4 Superkrak/4D3 Castellan.

That's the obvious one - but it would also apply to librarians with their psychic now being a "gun", and I'm sure other factions with Firing Deck rules have other units that fall into a similar category

[Lemondish]

13 minutes ago, Tacitus said:

That's the obvious one - but it would also apply to librarians with their psychic now being a "gun", and I'm sure other factions with Firing Deck rules have other units that fall into a similar category

That's something I hadn't considered - psychic busses.

[Tacitus]

14 minutes ago, Lemondish said:

That's something I hadn't considered - psychic busses.

 Mv12, T9 3+, 5++ 11W,  2 Stormbolters, an Ironhail heavy stubber and 5D6 3+ S6 -2 D3D attacks?  (5D6, because one slot is taken up by the Techmarine who can hop out after the advance/move, Stand next to the Impulsor during your opponent's turn as a LONE OPERATIVE, heal the HAZARDOUS mortals in your command phase, then hop back in for that turn's movement phase.   Of course that's about 520 points so... you know.  Plus you may have to swap one Libby for another Techmarine to be able to do the Hop and Pop every turn.  He can't disembark after the move on the same turn he hopped back in after the heal.  Not that you lose much by trading a HAZARDOUS smite for a Forge Bolter  A3, S5 -1 D2. 

Edited June 28, 2023 by Tacitus

[Lemondish]

1 minute ago, Tacitus said:

 Mv12, T9 3+, 5++ 11W,  2 Stormbolters, an Ironhail heavy stubber and 5D6 3+ S6 -1 D3D attacks?  (5D6, because one slot is taken up by the Techmarine who can hop out after the advance/move, Stand next to the Impulsor during your opponent's turn as a LONE OPERATIVE, heal the HAZARDOUS mortals in your command phase, then hop back in for that turn's movement phase.   Of course that's about 520 points so... you know. 

My favourite part of a new edition is that all these fun little things to try from my collection before the long slog of the meta makes it too difficult to make work outside narrative campaigns.

[Tacitus]

11 minutes ago, Lemondish said:

My favourite part of a new edition is that all these fun little things to try from my collection before the long slog of the meta makes it too difficult to make work outside narrative campaigns.

I'm not sure there is going to be just one Meta at a time this go round.  There are so many gimmicks, and they're almost all one-two unit mini combos that can then be slotted in with 4-6 other mini combos the mix and match potential is pretty high.

 

Also I just realized you can now stick Centurions in a Repulsor, Land Raider, or a Storm Raven.

 

Just let me me air-drop these three Cent Devs and a Ballistus Dread on that objective in your deployment zone for a firebase on your side of the table.... 

Edited June 28, 2023 by Tacitus

[Djangomatic82]

8 hours ago, Tacitus said:

 Mv12, T9 3+, 5++ 11W...

The Transport would not get the 5++ Invuln Aura from the libby, since he is technically not on the table. but everything else looks RAW.

A magic school bus would be heresy, but a Psychic bus is just gravy.

[SkimaskMohawk]

8 hours ago, Tacitus said:

Just let me me air-drop these three Cent Devs and a Ballistus Dread on that objective in your deployment zone for a firebase on your side of the table.... 

 

Can't storm raven a ballistus, it doesn't have the plain dreadnought keyword like the brutalis. And that's setting aside the RAW preventing the brutalis from even disembarking as you need to be wholly within 3" and the base is larger.