Good combos?

[Lemondish]

59 minutes ago, SkimaskMohawk said:

 

Can't storm raven a ballistus, it doesn't have the plain dreadnought keyword like the brutalis. And that's setting aside the RAW preventing the brutalis from even disembarking as you need to be wholly within 3" and the base is larger.

 

 

Handled in the rules commentary:

 

"Disembarking Large Models: When a unit disembarks from a Transport, it must be set up wholly within 3" of that model. If a disembarking model is so large that it is not possible to set it up wholly within 3" (typically because it is itself larger than 3" in all directions), set that model up with its base within 1" of that Transport’s base (or hull), and not within Engagement Range of any enemy models."

 

[SkimaskMohawk]

3 hours ago, Lemondish said:

Handled in the rules commentary:

 

"Disembarking Large Models: When a unit disembarks from a Transport, it must be set up wholly within 3" of that model. If a disembarking model is so large that it is not possible to set it up wholly within 3" (typically because it is itself larger than 3" in all directions), set that model up with its base within 1" of that Transport’s base (or hull), and not within Engagement Range of any enemy models."

 

 

Nice, glad to see.

 

I definitely think the storm raven as a flyer from reserves has some play in a similar way to a wraith knight coming in from reserves and just nuking stuff down (and grabbing an objective). Only problem is how expensive that package gets for its output, and that it kinda boils back down to the same ol' combo of bolter discipline, adaptive strategy, and good shooting unit (so, desolators because they're just so good right now). Maybe eradicators if it's vehicle/monster hunting? Dreads kinda optional, but a classic or iron clad could do some work. Still a pretty expensive unit getting closer to 600 points for the full deso combo.

[Tacitus]

6 hours ago, SkimaskMohawk said:

 

Nice, glad to see.

 

I definitely think the storm raven as a flyer from reserves has some play in a similar way to a wraith knight coming in from reserves and just nuking stuff down (and grabbing an objective). Only problem is how expensive that package gets for its output, and that it kinda boils back down to the same ol' combo of bolter discipline, adaptive strategy, and good shooting unit (so, desolators because they're just so good right now). Maybe eradicators if it's vehicle/monster hunting? Dreads kinda optional, but a classic or iron clad could do some work. Still a pretty expensive unit getting closer to 600 points for the full deso combo.

Centurions can ride in Stormravens now.  Only 3 but they can. 3 Cents, a Dread, and a Stormraven will run you about 580-640ish.  But the Stormraven gets to move on after the drop, the real "cost" here is the "wasted" turns.  At least 1 Turn(s) spent in Reservers.  First turn on the board with basically a 0 Move to get 6" onto a table edge.   3rd turn is a long move, 4th turn you can disembark the contents.  That's a lot time for a third of your army to sit around doing nothing.   Again, this is GW making it hard to dump and pump close combat in what is probably an overreaction on their part.  There's nothing wrong with some units able to do this - especially to avoid the Turn 4 "finally" effect. 

[CCE1981]

Why can’t you disembark turn 2 or three?   For turn 2 when a model is placed on board it is counted as making a Normal Move.  Then again on turn 3 you can disembark before the flier moves or, after it makes its long move.

[SkimaskMohawk]

6 hours ago, Tacitus said:

Centurions can ride in Stormravens now.  Only 3 but they can. 3 Cents, a Dread, and a Stormraven will run you about 580-640ish.  But the Stormraven gets to move on after the drop, the real "cost" here is the "wasted" turns.  At least 1 Turn(s) spent in Reservers.  First turn on the board with basically a 0 Move to get 6" onto a table edge.   3rd turn is a long move, 4th turn you can disembark the contents.  That's a lot time for a third of your army to sit around doing nothing.   Again, this is GW making it hard to dump and pump close combat in what is probably an overreaction on their part.  There's nothing wrong with some units able to do this - especially to avoid the Turn 4 "finally" effect. 

 

Woops, forgot that you don't actually "move" on from reserves. It's pretty bad then as a flyer, but I guess if you play with WTC ruins and player placed you can start it in hover mode and just move 20" up. 

 

I wouldn't take Centurions though. 205 for three compared to 335 for 10 desolators and a librarian with enhancement, or just 240 for the desos. You kill way more and have a higher oc.

[Karhedron]

10 hours ago, Tacitus said:

Centurions can ride in Stormravens now.  Only 3 but they can. 3 Cents, a Dread, and a Stormraven will run you about 580-640ish.

 

Would it be easier to drop a couple of Pods on the target on T1 or some Terminators on T2? I admit that screening against DS will make this harder but if your opponent is dedicating resources to babysitting their home Objective then you can push more easily into the midfield.

[CCE1981]

Lol, if you really want to throw Centurions into the Fight turn 1, take Blood Angels.  Librarian Dreadnoughts can throw an Infantry squad, Centurions are Infantry, 9” away from your opponent.

[Tacitus]

16 hours ago, CCE1981 said:

Why can’t you disembark turn 2 or three?   For turn 2 when a model is placed on board it is counted as making a Normal Move.  Then again on turn 3 you can disembark before the flier moves or, after it makes its long move.

On Turn 2 the Stormraven is only 6" on the board.  On Turn 3, you've moved (or you're still only 6" on the board), and can't disembark from Stormravens after moving. 

[Tacitus]

13 hours ago, SkimaskMohawk said:

 

Woops, forgot that you don't actually "move" on from reserves. It's pretty bad then as a flyer, but I guess if you play with WTC ruins and player placed you can start it in hover mode and just move 20" up. 

 

I wouldn't take Centurions though. 205 for three compared to 335 for 10 desolators and a librarian with enhancement, or just 240 for the desos. You kill way more and have a higher oc.

In a Storm Raven I wouldn't take anything.  It doesn't matter what it is, it's pretty much not seeing the table until turn 4. 

11 hours ago, CCE1981 said:

Lol, if you really want to throw Centurions into the Fight turn 1, take Blood Angels.  Librarian Dreadnoughts can throw an Infantry squad, Centurions are Infantry, 9” away from your opponent.

You can do the same with Uriel Ventris in Ultras. and then you can do it with 6.

[Karhedron]

3 hours ago, Tacitus said:

On Turn 2 the Stormraven is only 6" on the board.  On Turn 3, you've moved (or you're still only 6" on the board), and can't disembark from Stormravens after moving. 

 

I think you can still disembark after moving, you just can't charge.

 

Quote

■ If a unit disembarks after its Transport moves, it cannot move or charge this turn, but can otherwise act normally.

 

[Tacitus]

21 minutes ago, Karhedron said:

 

I think you can still disembark after moving, you just can't charge.

 

 

OK... you don't WANT to disembark after moving.  If you disembark, you can't charge, you're not protected by being off board until T10, W14 3+ -1D to incoming attacks Transport armor is destroyed etc.   Shootinators can Deepstrike on their own for free and faster.  Grav Devs can Pod Bomb for cheaper and even faster than Terminators.  As can the Assault Intercessors, assported Jump Packers, BGV, and other assorted Power Armor Melee units. Cent Devs don't need to move, they've got range.  The things you want to put in a Storm Raven want to charge.   Terminator Assault, Assault Cents, all the Dreads, potentially Aggressors and Wulfen.  Big Armor Shooters (HINTS and such) can go in a Mv10 Repulsor and don't need the Assault Ramp. 

 

The more I work on the combined unit, the less attractive it gets.  A Mv 2-+ flying Land Raider that only deploys on Turn 2+ and doesn't have the Assault Ramp costs two turns the Mv 10-12 actual Landraiders dont.   And that's only IF the Strategic Reserves Rules somehow allow it within the 500 point cap and somewhat ambiguous wording for the contents and reserves/strategic reserves etc.   It probably makes a decent bomber aircraft, but it feels like the transport part really missed the mark. 

 

I don't know, your milage may vary. 

[Captain Idaho]

Simple combo... Land Raider Redeemer and the Overwatch Strategum. Run it up the field, burn stuff in your shooting phase then in Overwatch burn some more stuff in the movement phase. Heavens forbid they charge you too.

[Tacitus]

47 minutes ago, Captain Idaho said:

Simple combo... Land Raider Redeemer and the Overwatch Strategum. Run it up the field, burn stuff in your shooting phase then in Overwatch burn some more stuff in the movement phase. Heavens forbid they charge you too.

Its nice, but Range 12" AFTER they move makes it tougher.  You've pretty much got to drive up on top of them.   It'd be nice if Overwatch allowed you to stop them at some point during their move instead of at the end.

 

Giving it some thought: Lean Into it. 

 

Redeemer transporting a Primaris Captain, Primaris Apothecary, and 10x Infernus Squad -

 

Drive up 5ish inches away, Deploy the Infantry - especially if you can do it in a way to bottleneck the opponent - Blast away with the flamers, flamers everywhere - you're looking at something like 40-50 varying strength flamer shots-hits, 6 Assault Cannon, 2 Multi Melta.  

 

35 from the Infernusators, vs T4 - 23 wounds, 7.7 wonds after 3+ Armor Save, 3.5-4 Dead marines.  13 S6 -2 D2 -  5.83 D2 woundings, 10+ damage, 5 more dead.   Its even meaner against big units of Orks or Necron Warriors.   It could be one of the best shooting based hard counters to Grots with a Runt Herd.   Whoops they just changed the Gretchin/Runtherd rule.   But I still like it for Warriors that grow back. 

Edited June 30, 2023 by Tacitus

[Malakithe]

Dont think this is a combo but I think stacking Leaders is a trap. Every list I build im wracking my brain over the wonky points I have left and try to fill in the gap. Im adding units, im cutting units, then I look at the Leaders and ask myself what are they really doing? I think GW wants players to really use the attachment system to the determent of list building. Between the really back transport restrictions and Leader-to-unit availability im just not bringing Leaders. My latest list is packed full of stuff but only has a single Leader. A Captain for the Terminator unit. Kinda strange but my list is made of units that are mostly fine without Leader support. Not sure if I did that on purpose or it was a happy little accident. Very stark contrast from my Necron list that has Leaders all over the place

[Minsc]

And some units don't really need a leader but are fine on their own, like Sternguard. 

Speaking of combos, I got the idea from someone at dakka, and I'll probably give it a go soon;
 

Gravis Captain (with Honor Vehements or Artificer Armour, undecided as both are good) + A. Biologis (with Bolter Discipline) +6 Aggressors with Boltstorm/Fragstorm, all stuffed inside a Land Raider Crusader.
Probably not the most competitive choice, and it's ... quite expensive at 660-665 pts, but the sheer amount of bullets and explosions spraying out of that unit as it burts out of the Land Raider is hilariour.
 

[Tacitus]

Double Down and make sure you're in Dev Doctrine - potentially with the freebie Strat from the Captain - when you do it for Lethal and Sustained to trigger on a 5+ instead of 6+.

 

Let's see:  6.5 shots per, 6 total - 39 shots  26 hit,  8 Lethal/Sustained means 26 hits, and 8 woundings.  26 hits vs T3 Hormagaunts screening some Screamer Killers.  16.5 or so woundings plus another 6 or so, 22 damage 7ish save, but the Captain and Biologis will take care of a few of those before the Redeemer twin Assault Cannon finishes them off. Either way, you're through the screen charging the screamer killer,  3x6 attacks, 18 attacks, 9 hits, reroll twin linked 13.5 hits 2 are Lethal.  11.5 S8 vs T9 2 or so woundings, plus another 1.5 for 3 woundings 6 damage out of 10 - meanwhile the Captain in Gravis Armor does 6 more attacks,  1 lethal, 4 regular hits, 1.5 or so woundings plus the lethal, 2.5 1.25 for another 2 damage out of the 10.   And you haven't shot the Redeemer yet  (Well you have, probably into the Screamer Killer over the heads of the Hormagaunts). 

 

And in this case the Redeemer is probably a better choice than the Crusader as its more oriented towards the Hormagaunts.  The Redeemer's S6 -2 D2 will be tough to wound the T9 2+ screamer killer but not as much as Hurricane Bolters, and at least one should get through finishing off the Screamer Killer. 

 

Its fairly potent.

 

 

I've thought of doing something similar: 5 Assault Terminators and a Chaplain in Terminator Armor - Maybe a captain, but I like the Chaplain +1 to wound better - Pile out, Charge, Battleshock tests all around, 15 Thunderhammers with +1 to wound.   T7 and less is wounded on 2's, T8 on 3's, T9+ is wounded on 4's.  Is there anything with T16+?  But that should put out a fairly shocking "You can do that?!?" to things like the IG Super Heavies etc. 

 

I mean most of the time, you see a Land Raider and 6 Terminators hop out to charge a Stormsword or a Knight Castellan and the opponent is going to rub their hands together in glee for the upcoming titanic feet stomping.   30 attacks,  4+ +1 for OOM, 20 hits, 10 woundings, reroll for another 5 is 15 woundings.  2.5 are Devastating, 12.5 at 2+-2 is 6.25 after saves for 5 + 12.5 = 17.5 damage just from the melee to a T13 24W 5++ vs ranged.  And that's not counting the Chaplain or the shooting from the Land Raider (you can do the Godhammer because you're 6 counts as 12.) 

[Commander Nicky]

I was actually considering a Chaplain in terminator armour with bolter discipline and a 10 model terminators squad with 2 cyclone missile launcher and some chainfists. Quite an expensive units, but also a rather solid one, which works well against most enemies. The bolter disipline works very well here, with so storm bolters. It also  works for the cyclone missile launcher as far as I am aware. which potential means that you can get 8 S9 AP-2 D6 wounds (I know it is unlikely scenario, but it is okay to have dreams, right?)

Edited June 30, 2023 by Commander Nicky

[SkimaskMohawk]

9 hours ago, Tacitus said:

Grav Devs can Pod Bomb for cheaper and even faster than Terminators. As can the Assault Intercessors, assported Jump Packers, BGV, and other assorted Power Armor Melee units. Cent Devs don't need to move, they've got range.  The things you want to put in a Storm Raven want to charge.   Terminator Assault, Assault Cents, all the Dreads, potentially Aggressors and Wulfen.  Big Armor Shooters (HINTS and such) can go in a Mv10 Repulsor and don't need the Assault Ramp. 

 

Err, dev cents definitely need the range on their grav and bolters, and need as much help as they can get in maintaining LoS. On WTC boards it's a bit miserable to only have 4" to try and get an angle on their targets.

 

And ya, all the power armour stuff doesn't really need the storm raven as a swift delivery method, but gravis units and cents definitely don't have that option. Their other transports are constrained by terrain and enemy model placement and are extremely telegraphed as a result. Again, the storm raven isn't looking amazing, but on WTC boards you can both hide it and move it with enough freedom/speed to take advantage of opponents mistakes, rather than needing to follow the path. I love my repulsors, but they have some drawbacks when it comes to patching and speed.

 

Like idk why youd be so focussed on putting melee units in it. It's obviously slower to deliver melee than shooting units and as long as the target unit(s) get killed off the disembark it doesn't really matter (in fact the shooting units can still provide output while holding the objective). And then you also talk about a redeemer with the flamer guys in another complete reversal of units that benefit the most from that transport. Fun/thematic combos really aren't the same as "good" ones. 

 

 

 

Edited June 30, 2023 by SkimaskMohawk

[Djangomatic82]

What are peoples thoughts on the Spartan?  305pts, 8x lascannon shots, 3 twin heavy bolter shots and a pintle weapon look like pretty good ranged damage compared to a lot of other vehicles.

add to that a Sv2+, T12,  10"M and 28 transport capacity and it feels pretty bonkers.

idk what to put in it, but it looks hella solid.

Edited June 30, 2023 by Djangomatic82

[Iron Father Ferrum]

I ran 6x Aggies with Bolter Discipline Apothecary Biologies in an LRR against Ultramarines and the LRR was the absolutely MVP hands down.  Get it up field with the flamestorms in range and you can roast damn near anything because those auto-hit in Overwatch.  Mine roasted five Incursors, most of a full Sternguard squad, a bunch of Terminators, Uriel Ventris. . . . The Aggressors did kill some Terminators, but the LRR is what cleaned out the center of the board.  Every time I activated it, whether in the shooting phase or for Overwatch, my opponent heaved a sigh because he knew the pain was coming.

[Colman]

The Spartan has no assault ramp though, so it’s for delivering a nice chunky gunline and a lot of heavy weapons up field. I’m thinking of filling it with gravis, take advantage of the fire support rule.

Edited June 30, 2023 by Colman

[Captain Idaho]

15 hours ago, Tacitus said:

Its nice, but Range 12" AFTER they move makes it tougher.  You've pretty much got to drive up on top of them.   It'd be nice if Overwatch allowed you to stop them at some point during their move instead of at the end.

 

 

Well you can Overwatch at the start of their move, which sounds a little unclear as to what is happening really, but I would consider that a player would declare they're moving said unit and you'd fire, but this could be another one for the FAQs... 

[Minsc]

Not that much of a combo but it happened today and I thought it was pretty funny: Brutalis Dread + Tankshock, averages 6,67 mortal wounds against anything below T12 (6 mortal wounds against anything T12+). And then you start actually swinging. :P

Also, a Full-Volkite Kratos (now confirmed at 245 pts) with OoM averages 13,83 mortal wounds against T10+, plus some AP0 D3 wounds and a multimelta and autocannon to boot. 
Incoming nerf in 3....2.....1....

Edited July 1, 2023 by Minsc

[Malakithe]

3 hours ago, Minsc said:

Not that much of a combo but it happened today and I thought it was pretty funny: Brutalis Dread + Tankshock, averages 6,67 mortal wounds against anything below T12 (6 mortal wounds against anything T12+). And then you start actually swinging. :P

Also, a Full-Volkite Kratos (now confirmed at 245 pts) with OoM averages 13,83 mortal wounds against T10+, plus some AP0 D3 wounds and a multimelta and autocannon to boot. 
Incoming nerf in 3....2.....1....

Isnt the Kratos Legends now? So it wont ever receive a nerf or buff

[Tacitus]

12 hours ago, SkimaskMohawk said:

 

 

Like idk why youd be so focussed on putting melee units in it. It's obviously slower to deliver melee than shooting units and as long as the target unit(s) get killed off the disembark it doesn't really matter (in fact the shooting units can still provide output while holding the objective). And then you also talk about a redeemer with the flamer guys in another complete reversal of units that benefit the most from that transport. Fun/thematic combos really aren't the same as "good" ones. 

 

 

 

If I'm taking Cents, they're probably not Dev Cents - I get more grav and more Las from Power Armor Dev Squads for less than I get from Cents.  Maybe it changes when points get updated.  Probably not.  Dev Cents pay 70 points per Grav+Las shot.  Double Devs pay 60 points per Grav+Las Shot.   Maybe put some Dev Cents in a Repulsor that doesn't have a ramp, but again.. there's just a Why? factor there.   You run out of room before you get to Cent Devs. 

 

The Flamer Guys in the Redeemer were also FIGHT oriented models that just happened to team up with the Redeemer for an Overwartch/Torrent gimmick.  Flamestorm Aggressors in a Redeemer will have the Torrent/Overwatch card in their back pocket, but their primary deal is to jump out and punch face.