+1 to all Vehicle Armour

[Stitch5000]

8 hours ago, MegaVolt87 said:

Abolition of the vechicle squadron rules would do wonders to buff tanks, while imposing the vechicle squadron rule onto dreads units would do wonders to fix the issues with both alone. How dread talons currently work is how tank squadrons should be working, it's the wrong way around currently. 

Careful what you wish for... Have you tried dreads in squadrons under the current rules? it is brutal (extremely)

 

[Xenith]

Yea, one dread returning fire is bad enough, but 3 at once? 

What about either allowing tanks to return fire with all weapons, like dreads, or allow dreads to only return with defeinsive weapons, like tanks?

 

Still doesn't answer the question of tanks being not that tough, though. 

[TheTrans]

I feel using dreads as any point of reference point its a bad idea haha, they are, as it stands, well overpowered in all of their abilities and benefits haha. 

[Marshal Mittens]

I think that a few issues cause this:

 

Marines are by far the most popular current army, meaning things that kill elite infantry well are good, and weapon options which kill hordes are largely un needed in most metas. 

 

Contemptor Dreadnaughts are also very popular.

 

HSS with Lascannons kill Contemptors and Elite infantry very well.

 

With Sunder, Lascannons are very good against all vehicles now.

 

The ability to take a unit with 10 Lascannons is pretty strong, and right now there is very little reason to take a HSS that's not 10 lascannons (though autocannons and Volkite are good too), given that they do good work against almost every target in a space marine dominated meta. 

 

Combine this with that many vehicles are good at killing hordes, which isn't needed in the current meta, or other vehicles, which HSS with Lascannons usually do better for cheaper, and the problem isn't that vehicles are bad, it's that HSS with lascannons are just very good in this specific meta. 

[Razorblade]

I think the issue with vehicles is twofold:

They're definitely not tough enough but giving them bonus armor would just take away the role of medium strength all round guns like autocannons which are already struggling. It would also do relatively little to address the Toughness issues of lighter vehicles, while making Spartans practically invulnerable.

My fix would be to increase hull points by roughly 50% and change explode to do "chain-reaction" causing an extra hullpoijt loss and an explosion if that kills the vehicle.

The other issue is reactions. This affects the performance of vehicles both offensively (they will get to shoot less often than something with proper reactions) and defensively (they eat extra fire in their on turn).

The easiest fix on that end would be to just allow vehicles to shoot normally during reactions, however I don't think that more shooty reactions would be a good thing for the game. 

Other Options would include making everyone unable to fire S7+ during reactions or making everybody count as being on the move during reactions, however this would drastically change the balance of the legions with some being far less affected by these changes due to traits or wargear than others (Imperial Fists, Blood Angels, Word Bearers, Deathguard) and the last solution in particular likely just forcing a shift from HSSs to Javelins.

[MegaVolt87]

On 6/27/2023 at 5:57 PM, Stitch5000 said:

Careful what you wish for... Have you tried dreads in squadrons under the current rules? it is brutal (extremely)

 

 

Dreads would have to maintain a 4 inch coherancy and take splash dmg on wounds with only one model in range, just like tanks do now. That makes them more vulnerable, robs them of multiple singular dreads acting independently. I know exactly what I am wishing for. Multiple dreads will need to use more slots to gain the power advantage of solo dreads they enjoy now. 

 

Tank units are the ones where if they worked like the dread talons now could act independently, benefit from the pts reduction from multiple vechicles would make them usable and move away from the current one vechicle per slot meta so that they are not at a disadvantage. 

Edited June 29, 2023 by MegaVolt87

[SkimaskMohawk]

Yea, while it'd be frustrating to have a battery of double las castaferrum all return fire or Overwatch, the current situation is still more advantageous for them.

 

First, you have supreme FoC flexibility, as you get three units for price of one slot. 

 

Second, it forces your opponent to split their priorities multiple ways. Theres no chance for a highroll spill over to kill multiple dreads from one shooting attack, or for a really potent unit to kill/heavily damage one and charge in to finish off the weakened unit. No, your unit is killing one dread a turn; if you do 20 unsaved wounds, it's killing just the one; if you shoot and kill a dread, you're not charging anything else. 

 

Third, it forces the dreadnoughts to commit to a target. They all have to shoot one unit instead of three, they all have to charge that one unit they shot, and they all have to stick together. 

 

Automata don't get to split into separate units, armigers don't get to split into separate units, sentinels don't get to split into separate units, and back in the days of 1st, shrikes didn't get to split into separate units. 

 

Honestly, i still don't know why all the walkers turned into monstrous creatures; you revert them back and they'd suddenly be perfectly balanced. 

[MegaVolt87]

I don't mind dreads as MC, but the wounds spill should be written in if it can't happen under the current rules. The extra elite slot on the FOC makes taking x2 dreads an auto inclue, it's a feast within a feast with x4 elite slots as well. 

 

Edits, edit- if there was ever going to be bonus slots it should have been an extra HQ slot, for a lot of reasons (more individual personalities in the era, the utility they add to an army etc) 

Edited June 29, 2023 by MegaVolt87