Wild Speculation on this summer's Space Marine Releases?

[TheArtilleryman]

2 hours ago, JayJapanB said:

 

Speaking of merge and purge. I kinda hate how the Primaris line up is so spread out. It's basically the opposite to the firstborn codex. Rather than clean and clear pillars you just have units all over the place.

 

Aggressors? Reavers? Do these have a place?
Suppressors? Inceptors?

Turning 1 Devastator squad into 4-7 "-ator" squads?

3 Dreadnoughts + a walker?

Another Apothecary, another lieutenant, another special weapon squad... etc

And people still want a Bladeguard Ancient?

If we get scouts, then we'll have scouts, reavers, infiltrators, incursors, eliminators.

 

I don't mean to be too much of a hater, but Primaris themselves seem to be a big contributor to bloat. Just feels like stuff for the sake of stuff.

 

Kind of this. I like the new primaris models but I really wish they had just brought out bigger firstborn models and added a couple of new units or vehicles. Too many “ator” squads like you say, CBA with all the different names. Smells like GW’s copyright paranoia working overdrive. Oh, and then they bring out vanguard marines when you already have vanguard veterans. :Facepalm:

 

Should have just had primaris tactical, assault and devastator squads. Infiltrators, reavers and incursors could have been updated scouts with extra weapon options and special rules. Then over time phase out the firstborn kits.
 

I know the reasoning for going down the primaris route was a desire not to invalidate the classic models/make them feel inferior by just updating the marines, but I really wouldn’t have cared about this. This is what primaris have ended up doing anyway.

Edited July 3, 2023 by TheArtilleryman

[Tacitus]

3 hours ago, JayJapanB said:

 

Speaking of merge and purge. I kinda hate how the Primaris line up is so spread out. It's basically the opposite to the firstborn codex. Rather than clean and clear pillars you just have units all over the place.

 

Aggressors? Reavers? Do these have a place?

They do now.  Aggressors were the Primaris Terminators in function but not fluff.  Reivers were pretty bad for a long time, mostly because their gimmick was a part of the game that was rarely part of the game.  Also it should have been a no-brainer to make Reivers with Graps and Chutes count as Jump Pack FLY.

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Suppressors? Inceptors?

Turning 1 Devastator squad into 4-7 "-ator" squads?

Pretend Inceptors are bikes or speeders and you'll start to see it.  I think Suppresors were a throw-in to make the boxed set work out right, and were never really intended to become a permanent thing.

The Heavy -Ator squads MOSTLY work for me.  Its a design philosophy change that goes with the "troops" not having a 1 per 5 upgrade - I think they're going to run into Rule of Three problems eventually though.   My Army is 3x6 Eradicators, 3x10 Desolators, 3x10 Hellblasters, and 3x10 Devastators.  Delete everything in your army except that guy right there. 

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3 Dreadnoughts + a walker?

First born had 4 and a Forgeworld for more.  The new Redemptor Chassis look like they're doing two things - the double gun fireplatform Dread for Primaris, and a replacement for Bjorn, and Furioso.

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Another Apothecary, another lieutenant, another special weapon squad... etc

And people still want a Bladeguard Ancient?

I think the Bladeguard Ancient was also a throw-away.  No seperate clamshell for him yet. He attaches to one squad.   If anything my guess is he becomes an alternate model for a generic (Primaris) Ancient, and/or a unit upgrade for the BGV squad itself and his datasheet disappears.  On the outside, I could see a Primaris Command box with the "Bladeguard" Ancient, Primaris Champion, Primaris Apothecary and two models who can be made into either Sternguard or Bladeguard.

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If we get scouts, then we'll have scouts, reavers, infiltrators, incursors, eliminators.

 

I don't mean to be too much of a hater, but Primaris themselves seem to be a big contributor to bloat. Just feels like stuff for the sake of stuff.

If we get scouts, it'll just be a new sculpt for taller better proportioned/quality models with recessed details more friendly to Contrast Paints. 

[Orion]

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Pretend Inceptors are bikes or speeders and you'll start to see it. 

...but there are Primaris bikes and speeders already.

 

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First born had 4

Ironclad, venerable, standard?

I think things like Bjorn and the Furioso worked because they were chapter specific. Where do you go with the Primaris ones a Furioso Brutalis? 

And the warsuit is just unnecessarily reinventing the dreadnought.

 

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If anything my guess is he becomes an alternate model for a generic (Primaris) Ancient, and/or a unit upgrade for the BGV squad itself and his datasheet disappears.  

For sure. These are these are the kind of things that would chill out the 200+ pages of datasheets. Like apparently there isn't room for wargear points in 10th but there's room for an entire datasheet for "Lieutenant with combi-weapon" along with 7 abilities.

 

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They do now.  Aggressors were the Primaris Terminators in function but not fluff.  Reivers were pretty bad for a long time, mostly because their gimmick was a part of the game that was rarely part of the game.  Also it should have been a no-brainer to make Reivers with Graps and Chutes count as Jump Pack FLY.

I mean the fluff can be whatever it wants to be, but I don't really see the point of them. Same same with Reivers. And there's not exactly a shortage of marines with fly. Especially not when they add 2-3 more assault squads.

 

I thought this would all start to settle down and I'd get more used to them this long after their introduction. 

But after seeing the cool new Terminator models, and the looming firstborn cull. I just kinda wished they updated the old units and didn't have all this Primaris bloat to begin with. Desolators, Inceptors, and Aggressors staying but things like an update to a traditional multi option Devastator squad feels like a bad trade.

[Orion]

1 hour ago, TheArtilleryman said:

Should have just had primaris tactical, assault and devastator squads. Infiltrators, reavers and incursors could have been updated scouts with extra weapon options and special rules. Then over time phase out the firstborn kits.

Basically this. I don't even think they ever needed to be super-super soldiers. Like why wouldn't they just be an armoury update? New power armour and a few new weapons. New sculpts all around.

[Tacitus]

7 minutes ago, JayJapanB said:

...but there are Primaris bikes and speeders already.

 

Ironclad, venerable, standard?

 

And Contemptors. 

[Dracos]

9 hours ago, TheArtilleryman said:

 

Kind of this. I like the new primaris models but I really wish they had just brought out bigger firstborn models and added a couple of new units or vehicles. Too many “ator” squads like you say, CBA with all the different names. Smells like GW’s copyright paranoia working overdrive. Oh, and then they bring out vanguard marines when you already have vanguard veterans. :Facepalm:

 

Should have just had primaris tactical, assault and devastator squads. Infiltrators, reavers and incursors could have been updated scouts with extra weapon options and special rules. Then over time phase out the firstborn kits.
 

I know the reasoning for going down the primaris route was a desire not to invalidate the classic models/make them feel inferior by just updating the marines, but I really wouldn’t have cared about this. This is what primaris have ended up doing anyway.

Oh yeah more Primaris hate complaining from Firstborn lover. Awesome way to keep the conversation from deteriorating. 
 

Sorry but I go all the way back to second edition and was chased out about time Apocalypse became a thing.  Only thing that brought me back was the Primaris models. 
 

 … and then almost chased out again by the waves of hate propagated for anything Primaris. Which always ticks me off because you never (almost) hear a player who loves his Primaris models complaining how Firstborn out of date make up and models are ruining the game for them. 
 

As designed … there is a niche for each Primaris unit and accept for the vehicles/dreadnoughts they are a lot easier on new (or returning) players to pick up and play without being enticed to mini/max to the last of 2000 points. 
 

Given my love for all things Phobos and Gravis I’d love to see Chaplain (Librarian and  Lt.) versions of those models

 

I am joyous that Terminators and Vehicles have crossbred to both “factions” and greatly saddened at the fate of the beloved boxnaught

 

 

Side note: Aggressors were never Terminators. Never will be Terminators. The 2+/4++ save and deep strike is unique to the Terminator and though I love both, the Aggressor just doesn’t compare. 

Edited July 3, 2023 by Dracos

[spessmarine]

12 hours ago, JayJapanB said:

 

Speaking of merge and purge. I kinda hate how the Primaris line up is so spread out. It's basically the opposite to the firstborn codex. Rather than clean and clear pillars you just have units all over the place.

 

Aggressors? Reavers? Do these have a place?
Suppressors? Inceptors?

Turning 1 Devastator squad into 4-7 "-ator" squads?

3 Dreadnoughts + a walker?

Another Apothecary, another lieutenant, another special weapon squad... etc

And people still want a Bladeguard Ancient?

If we get scouts, then we'll have scouts, reavers, infiltrators, incursors, eliminators.

 

I don't mean to be too much of a hater, but Primaris themselves seem to be a big contributor to bloat. Just feels like stuff for the sake of stuff.

 

Bloat precedes Primaris I'd say, but yeah, Primaris didn't help with it either.

For example, is it really needed to basically have Primaris Aspect Warriors instead of creating a special weapons units ala HH method? Basic troop (Intercessor) + special weapon upgrade sprue.

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

16 hours ago, Tacitus said:

That's probably close to the end game.  I'd guess the majority of Space Marine players weren't getting a lot of model turn-over from the First Born, which meant their biggest seller wasn't generating continued sales.  I know I was in that boat.  The only time I bought something was if it was a a new unit, anew sculpt with a significant improvement over the old one I already had, or an old unit that had a significant rules change (think optimal load, options choices etc) that fed into one of my themes  I had all the Rhino chassis set up for magnetized sponsons and turrets to easily change from Rhino to Razorback to Predator to Whirlwind.  The only thing I couldn't make 3 of were the original LasPlas cool turret Razorback. 

 

Some firstborn will stick around - Scouts, Terminators/Other Elite McVeterans - but my bet is anything firstborn that does stick around gets upsized and becomes homogenous in a not specifically firstborn or primaris.  Assume they do Primaris-ify the Vanguard Vets - then Retcon First Companies to say Any veteran in the First Company could be Primaris or could be First born, but they're still in Tacticus armor as a X-Guard Vet, or TDA as a Terminator, Scouts are scouts and not either of anything - who is going to even blink at that?  Not many.  Follow that up with the replacement of the Rhino with the Trans-Por-Tor APC Tank by giving a Land Raider and an Impulsor a lilttle too much to drink and a couple Barry White albums and they're pretty much done.   Drop Pods already cross over, The already existant Impulsor will naturally replace the Razorback, Tac Squads are already pretty meh, Land Raiders and Repulsors cross over AND have different specialties similar to Firestrikes and Thunderfires.  You can do 3 Outriders and an ATV or 3 Bikes and an Attack Bike now - that's just begging for a merge and purge. 

 

Melta Devs - Eradicators

Plasma Devs - Hellblasters

Lascannon Devs - Used to be Eliminators - and could be corrected back

Missile Devs - Desolators

HB Devs - HINTS

You're only missing Grav Devs, and who would be surprised to see a new Grav based kit announced for Primaris-sized marines along the lines of the new Flam-or Marines? 

 

Hunter/Stalkers are one of the Impulsor Turret Tops and can be reworked Taking Top X sets Transport to Zero and gives you this gun.

 

Gladiators and Predators. 

 

What's left that doesn't have a replacement already out there not implemented, or the "replacement" doesn't actually replace/coexist the First Born thing?  Old Speeders and the Vindicator? 

 

I'd say Primaris was always a plan to replace the line over time, and the pushback just made them take a little longer to be a little more subtle, and maybe rethink the iconic/fan-favorites.

Nah no FB will survive. Terminators have already been primarized 

[Orion]

6 minutes ago, Inquisitor_Lensoven said:

Nah no FB will survive. Terminators have already been primarized 

And they did a great job of the Terminators.

Like the Terminators, can we get tactical, assault, dev, marines "primarisised" keeping their old armour too? 

Is that how this works?

[Tacitus]

3 hours ago, JayJapanB said:

And they did a great job of the Terminators.

Like the Terminators, can we get tactical, assault, dev, marines "primarisised" keeping their old armour too? 

Is that how this works?

Probably not - We've already got the precedent of Sternguard moving to Tacticus Armor, while they've worked pretty hard to keep Terminator and Gravis separate if more in the fluff than in the tabletop role. 

 

The First born units most likely to stay but with a new larger sculpt are the Termiantors and Scouts.  Maybe the TF Gun.   The Aircraft will stick around, but won't get a new sculpt.

[TheArtilleryman]

10 hours ago, Dracos said:

Oh yeah more Primaris hate complaining from Firstborn lover. Awesome way to keep the conversation from deteriorating. 
 

Sorry but I go all the way back to second edition and was chased out about time Apocalypse became a thing.  Only thing that brought me back was the Primaris models. 
 

 … and then almost chased out again by the waves of hate propagated for anything Primaris. Which always ticks me off because you never (almost) hear a player who loves his Primaris models complaining how Firstborn out of date make up and models are ruining the game for them. 
 

As designed … there is a niche for each Primaris unit and accept for the vehicles/dreadnoughts they are a lot easier on new (or returning) players to pick up and play without being enticed to mini/max to the last of 2000 points. 
 

Given my love for all things Phobos and Gravis I’d love to see Chaplain (Librarian and  Lt.) versions of those models

 

I am joyous that Terminators and Vehicles have crossbred to both “factions” and greatly saddened at the fate of the beloved boxnaught

 

 

Side note: Aggressors were never Terminators. Never will be Terminators. The 2+/4++ save and deep strike is unique to the Terminator and though I love both, the Aggressor just doesn’t compare. 

You got me wrong. I did say I like the primaris, but would have just preferred they upgraded the FB rather than adding so much new stuff. More of a balance, as it were. In fact, I’m currently working on a Raven Guard army which will have some primaris stuff like infiltrators, but I am also converting primaris to proxy FB models e.g. assault marines. This is just so they all look more coherent.

 

I also go back to 2nd edition (been playing since 1996) and have seen loads of new stuff come along. The FB space marine models were sorely in need of improvement, just as the 2nd edition monopose desperately needed their new kit way back when.

 

As for staying on topic … wild speculation about what I think they will actually bring out next would be, as I commented earlier, vanguard vets and all other terminator kits. Further than that, I’d love it if they upscaled the standard marine kits, simply because I’d like to use both but they look odd side by side. Don’t think they will just yet though.

[Lord Nord in Gravis Armour]

Regarding the Bladeguard Lieutenant, it wouldn't surprise me if they don't introduce a new model but simply expect players who want one to build it from the multipose Bladeguard. Might be the whole reason that a Neo-Volkite pistol was included with that kit. It's the same approach they had with the Custodes characters and more recently with a couple of the loadouts for the Black Templars Castellan.

 

(Of course, that Bladeguard kit was designed before 10th Edition's embargo on fielding either minimum or maximum sized squads - one Lieutenant and a five-man Bladeguard squad was an acceptable yield from two three-man kits.)

[Wormwoods]

6 minutes ago, Lord Nord said:

Regarding the Bladeguard Lieutenant, it wouldn't surprise me if they don't introduce a new model but simply expect players who want one to build it from the multipose Bladeguard. Might be the whole reason that a Neo-Volkite pistol was included with that kit. It's the same approach they had with the Custodes characters and more recently with a couple of the loadouts for the Black Templars Castellan.

 

(Of course, that Bladeguard kit was designed before 10th Edition's embargo on fielding either minimum or maximum sized squads - one Lieutenant and a five-man Bladeguard squad was an acceptable yield from two three-man kits.)

 

Just do what I did, and turn the 3-model Bladeguard kit into a pair of Lt's and a Chaplain. They're great starting points for building character models, as I'm sure the eventual Sternguard multipart kit will be. 

[Malakithe]

According to a certain CM whos name starts with a V these ones are happening:

• New Jump Assault Captain
• Jump Assault Intercessors
• New Scouts (Kill Team Boxset)
• New Terminator Chaplain (Supposed to have a shield)

[Tacitus]

I'm not sure I'd trust that.  I mean how could they do a Kill Team that didn't include Reivers.  Again.

[Malakithe]

26 minutes ago, Tacitus said:

I'm not sure I'd trust that.  I mean how could they do a Kill Team that didn't include Reivers.  Again.

Im not trying to advertise for him or anything but so far his sources have been right about everything

[Tacitus]

3 minutes ago, Malakithe said:

Im not trying to advertise for him or anything but so far his sources have been right about everything

It was a joke about how they keep putting Reivers into everything.  Like Lieutenants. 

[Sea Creature]

Reivers are great at killing farseers.

[spessmarine]

42 minutes ago, Sea Creature said:

Reivers are great at killing farseers.

 

Guess you could call 'em farsightedseers.

[Malakithe]

Prepare to have your minds blown...imagine.....Primaris....DROP PODS! Larger and even more stationary then their smaller pod cousins! Just imagine all the room inside for activities!

[Dracos]

On 7/7/2023 at 10:42 PM, Sea Creature said:

Reivers are great at killing farseers.

“Things Good to Kill Farseers”

 

… that’s going to be a long list :)

Edited July 9, 2023 by Dracos

[Karhedron]

1 hour ago, Dracos said:

“Things Good to Kill Farseers”

 

… that’s going to be a long list :)

 

I play both Eldar and Marines and I can heartily agree with this statement. Farseers can only hide in T3 4+ save squads which are pretty easy to hose off the board. They are T3 with only a 4++ meaning that anything with precision will pop them pretty easily.

[Tacitus]

Eldar in general are going to be unhappy with precision. 

[Lord Nord in Gravis Armour]

Given the long lead time between model design and release, I'm going to expect that the upcoming multipose Sternguard kit was designed as a true successor to the Firstborn squad kit and will therefore feature an abundance of combi-options on both profiles, so we should see plasma, flamer, melta, and hopefully grav options along with the necessary bits to go with either standard or auto (maybe even stalker) profiles on the bolter side.

 

Rules-wise, they'll all still just be the same exciting "combi-weapon" profile, but maybe someday GW will correct their overcorrection.

 

(In the meantime, keep repeating "Simplified but NOT simple," GW. It sounds more convincing every time).

 

On top of that, one fellow per squad should have the heavy bolt variant option. Question then becomes whether the Sergeant will have any alternate pistol or melee weapons within the kit or if he'll just be expected to use leftover bits from the Assault Intercessor kit the same way the Intercessor Sergeant currently is.

[Tacitus]

I'm wondering if there will be a Heavy Flamer version which is now on the Devs not the Sternguard.