10th edition tournament results - it doesn't look good

[Karhedron]

22 minutes ago, TrawlingCleaner said:

Lay low the Tyrant is also definitely 1 hit roll and 1 wound roll now. 

 

I think that is a good clarification. Knights are doing so well anyway that this is not going to break them. Rerolling a single 1 to Hit and Wound each time it attacks is still good at making sure the biggest shots get through.

[TrawlingCleaner]

6 minutes ago, Ahzek451 said:

I know you laid out the changes, but is GW doing a comprehensive list of changes somewhere I am not seeing or is this just what people are finding manually as they look through?

 

I've only laid out some of the changes, there's a whole bunch! There currently isn't a full change log as this update likely went out before GW announces the FAQ/Errata, we should be getting the full change log later today.

 

1 minute ago, Karhedron said:

 

I think that is a good clarification. Knights are doing so well anyway that this is not going to break them. Rerolling a single 1 to Hit and Wound each time it attacks is still good at making sure the biggest shots get through.

 

I think most TOs were using this ruling already but it's good for those that weren't already and good for casual games that may not have caught it!

[Kastor Krieg]

6 hours ago, TrawlingCleaner said:

The Warhammer app has just updated

Did they add Legends to it? No?

Not news then. That app is feature incomplete.

[TrawlingCleaner]

33 minutes ago, Kastor Krieg said:

Did they add Legends to it? No?

Not news then. That app is feature incomplete.

 

As much as you're preaching to the choir about Legends not being in the app (I'm dryfitting Chaos Lord on bike as we speak), this is a thread about the Competitive Meta/landscape for 10th ed 

[Captain Idaho]

Latest update from GW:

 

 

Eldar went up, after the last raft of changes 

 

And GW doesn't even mention mirror matches or the fact Eldar are generally fighting top tables and therefore better opposition!

 

What a joke 10th edition balance is. I have to laugh. 

[Ahzek451]

4 minutes ago, Captain Idaho said:

Latest update from GW:

 

 

Eldar went up, after the last raft of changes 

 

And GW doesn't even mention mirror matches or the fact Eldar are generally fighting top tables and therefore better opposition!

 

What a joke 10th edition balance is. I have to laugh. 

It's a gutt punch to any scraps of faith that may be left in GW's ability to make effective changes. The stand out one being blanket changes that inenvertingly punish things that fall under the same class of units/rules that they themselves are not exactly menacing to begin with. Such as the sweeping points increase to towering units, and units such as the lord of skulls.....why did this get a points bump? 

[TrawlingCleaner]

2 minutes ago, Ahzek451 said:

It's a gutt punch to any scraps of faith that may be left in GW's ability to make effective changes. The stand out one being blanket changes that inenvertingly punish things that fall under the same class of units/rules that they themselves are not exactly menacing to begin with. Such as the sweeping points increase to towering units, and units such as the lord of skulls.....why did this get a points bump? 

 

To play Devil's Advocate: Towering, Indirect etc are all rules that need changing but to do that they need to change the Core Rules. When they released the points changes, the preorders for the Core Rulebook had only just gone up and were coming around for delivery, I'd imagine they were told that were not allowed to change the Core Rules so close to release/before release. The only real way to deal with units with those keywords is to give them points bumps.

 

I don't agree with giving blanket points bumps, they absolutely should have dealt with those problems head on and made Core Rules changes but here we are

[Ahzek451]

15 minutes ago, TrawlingCleaner said:

 

To play Devil's Advocate: Towering, Indirect etc are all rules that need changing but to do that they need to change the Core Rules. When they released the points changes, the preorders for the Core Rulebook had only just gone up and were coming around for delivery, I'd imagine they were told that were not allowed to change the Core Rules so close to release/before release. The only real way to deal with units with those keywords is to give them points bumps.

 

I don't agree with giving blanket points bumps, they absolutely should have dealt with those problems head on and made Core Rules changes but here we are

Generally I agree, but what you are saying is IF they are limited to only changing points, I can see that. However, if their limited to this one dial, my main point is primarily aimed at the same issue. Their half-baked and inefficient practices at times.  What comes to mind is that someone made the bad call and said "we are short on time, do a search for all towering units and increase by 10%". These kinds of half-measured practices stack alongside all the other issues such as print errors on datacards and general overarching lack of polish GW could apply to the game but choose not to for this reason or that. 

Patches happen and always will happen, the difference is the amount of effort to avoid some of the most basic low-hanging fruit patches. 

[DemonGSides]

If they had taken the time to do anything else, the anger in places here would have been frothy.

I wish the balance dataslate wasn't going to take until January.  Feels like October/November should be enough time.

[TrawlingCleaner]

15 minutes ago, Ahzek451 said:

Generally I agree, but what you are saying is IF they are limited to only changing points, I can see that. However, if their limited to this one dial, my main point is primarily aimed at the same issue. Their half-baked and inefficient practices at times.  What comes to mind is that someone made the bad call and said "we are short on time, do a search for all towering units and increase by 10%". These kinds of half-measured practices stack alongside all the other issues such as print errors on datacards and general overarching lack of polish GW could apply to the game but choose not to for this reason or that. 

Patches happen and always will happen, the difference is the amount of effort to avoid some of the most basic low-hanging fruit patches. 

 

I agree, I definitely think the majority of points increases on factions outside of IK, Aeldari and to a certain extent CK were a knee-jerk to the Towering Issue. Perhaps they overvalued Towering on some units like the LoS and thought it would be more of a problem than it was? Unsure, either way they could've taken more time to work on sorting those out

 

4 minutes ago, DemonGSides said:

If they had taken the time to do anything else, the anger in places here would have been frothy.

I wish the balance dataslate wasn't going to take until January.  Feels like October/November should be enough time.

 

There's a Point update and a Balance dataslate in the 2nd week of September, as Stu mentions in the video

[Ahzek451]

4 minutes ago, TrawlingCleaner said:

 

I agree, I definitely think the majority of points increases on factions outside of IK, Aeldari and to a certain extent CK were a knee-jerk to the Towering Issue. Perhaps they overvalued Towering on some units like the LoS and thought it would be more of a problem than it was? Unsure, either way they could've taken more time to work on sorting those out

 

Sometimes I Feel bad for ragging on GW. Simply a result of being young and dumb and new to the hobby around 2nd ed, thinking with every new edition GW will get better at HOW they go about balancing the game. Fooling myself into thinking things will get better. "maybe next time". The grumps have settled in from the years of abuse. We just want GW to succeed at the end of the day. And really...a lot has changed since 8th and again...a lot hasn't. Bad calls from bad managers sticking to ancient practices. I don't necessarily blame the game designers. I do think their hands are tied quite a bit. 

[Rain]

Low priority being placed on rules writing and balance, plus many games to support, plus a 3 year edition cycle equals this here cluter. Can’t rationally expect much else I suppose. By the time they get the indices quasi-balanced there will be broken codex lists, and by the time they get the codices quasi-balanced, they will be launching 11th edition.
 

Ah well, it is what it is. I wish that instead of HH, they had made a permanent 5th edition, just with slightly modified wound rules, and toned down GK, IG, and Eldar. Call it “Dark Millennium” or something and let regular 40k move off into 8th. Slowly add units to it, but keep the core rules fixed or close to fixed, and no “progressing the story.” Just soft-retcon in new units like they did with Centurions. 

[Bouargh]

Looks like Aeldari won the WTC 2023 in the Warmaster´scompetition (individuals). I did not had time to watch the coverages in details... However, one comment I caught was something like "Aeldari victory looks logical considering the current state of the meta...". 

 

See coverages here: Event Coverage – World Team Championship

 

Nation vs. nation games started and we will see how it goes...

[Karhedron]

Some new analysis on Blood of Kittens. Eldar are still doing well although not quite so dominating. It is interesting to note that pretty much every list includes 2-3 Fire Prisms. Expect to see another price hike here IMHO. Knights also seem to have been affected as intended by the price hikes. A few new armies are creeping into the top lists including some surprises such as AdMech, Guard and even Space Wolves.

 

https://bloodofkittens.com/blog/2023/08/13/aeldari-fall-with-a-big-warhammer-40k-tournament-results/?fbclid=IwAR1tw1fCHnMD9K4WBLokPKc0zvxTbx43Wobjcgod0mv1XYoBxo8QLklV6-4

[Iron Father Ferrum]

A little anecdote for y'all.  I was at a local tournament of 18 players this past weekend.  There were three Aeldari armies.  Two of them were stacked with Fire Prisms and had a Wraith knight -- they took 1st and 2nd place.  3rd place went to Imperial Knights.  The third Aeldari army was more "traditional" but still placed in the top half of the bracket.

[crimsondave]

2 hours ago, Iron Father Ferrum said:

A little anecdote for y'all.  I was at a local tournament of 18 players this past weekend.  There were three Aeldari armies.  Two of them were stacked with Fire Prisms and had a Wraith knight -- they took 1st and 2nd place.  3rd place went to Imperial Knights.  The third Aeldari army was more "traditional" but still placed in the top half of the bracket.

Like 7th edition all over again except Fire Prisms instead of jet bike swarms.

 

Are Fire Prisms still cheaper than Leman Russ tanks?  It’s amazing in an edition where tanks are actually good Russes are such turds.

[Indy Techwisp]

On 8/10/2023 at 1:17 PM, Captain Idaho said:

 

Not really liking the look of that.

Mostly 'cause TSons place at the top of the "intended" bracket means once the top 4 get adjusted tourney players are gonna jump to the army I play and get it nerfed as well.

(Nerfed more than it needs to be anyway.)

 

Also T'au and LoV desperately need some help...

And maybe not just points adjustments.

Edited August 18, 2023 by Indy Techwisp
Adding a further point.

[Special Officer Doofy]

On 8/18/2023 at 9:40 AM, Indy Techwisp said:

Also T'au and LoV desperately need some help...

And maybe not just points adjustments.

 

Death Guard as well, sitting tied with tau and other earlier rankings had them at the bottom.

 

It's funny, if you go back and look at the end of 9th there was like only 3 faction's above 55% and about 2-3 below 45%. And bam, 10th comes and is a balance disaster.

[Captain Idaho]

And the Codex books won't be fixing it either. Most are miles off anyway, with those coming not radically diverging from the Indexes. With the granularity of the points system removed in favour of power level, the balance of the game is dead on arrival.

 

I know it's early and all that, but GW really need to reboot the entire edition. The game is unhealthy and will turn people away from the hobby as time goes on. I've never seen an edition this broken or ill received on arrival in all my life in the hobby.

Edited August 21, 2023 by Captain Idaho

[Emperor Ming]

1 hour ago, Captain Idaho said:

I know it's early and all that, but GW really need to reboot the entire edition. The game is unhealthy and will turn people away from the hobby as time goes on. I've never seen an edition this broken or ill received on arrival in all my life in the hobby.

It might be two editions before another reboot, so we could be stuck with current format for 6 years

 

If certain things get tweaked, it could be ok

[Akerkoke]

Tournaments are a total disaster, but I'm playing with my friends and nobody plays Eldar, Knights or GSC, so the game seems balanced between us...
Competitive scene is the worst I've ever seen frankly

[Interrogator Stobz]

Went as a visitor to a Tournament last weekend. Usually 30ish tables, now 12.

All the casuals are staying home because it's ridiculous. 

Casuals matter, balance matters more to them than competitors. 

One of the players, a mate, looked me in the eyes whilst destroying his opponent and said it was fun, he didn't believe himself.

His opponent was visibly stressed.

The whole room was a pit of negative vibes, I left.

[Special Officer Doofy]

57 minutes ago, Interrogator Stobz said:

Went as a visitor to a Tournament last weekend. Usually 30ish tables, now 12.

All the casuals are staying home because it's ridiculous. 

Casuals matter, balance matters more to them than competitors. 

One of the players, a mate, looked me in the eyes whilst destroying his opponent and said it was fun, he didn't believe himself.

His opponent was visibly stressed.

The whole room was a pit of negative vibes, I left.

 

I've never understood people defending the imbalance and just blame everything on tournament players. I'm casual and since coming back in 8th I don't even play in stores anymore. My brother, my friend group and I all have our own tables and setups and balance matters dearly to us. When we pay $1,000+ for game pieces that take hours to paint, and have to pay for the rules to those game pieces seperately, I would like those said rules to not suck and be balanced terribly.

Edited August 23, 2023 by Special Officer Doofy

[DemonGSides]

I haven't seen anyone defend the current balance. Just that there's not much benefit in screaming at other posters about it like there's anything we can do.

 

Of course that's easy to mistake as a defense when someone is worked up over it. But it'll get fixed in time.

[phandaal]

On 8/21/2023 at 6:37 AM, Captain Idaho said:

And the Codex books won't be fixing it either. Most are miles off anyway, with those coming not radically diverging from the Indexes. With the granularity of the points system removed in favour of power level, the balance of the game is dead on arrival.

 

I know it's early and all that, but GW really need to reboot the entire edition. The game is unhealthy and will turn people away from the hobby as time goes on. I've never seen an edition this broken or ill received on arrival in all my life in the hobby.

 

I was actually hyped by the early rules reveals for 10th. USRs, unit buffs from leaders, new mission pack, all that stuff looked great.

 

In the end though, not so much. Power Levels, obviously beta Index rules, same old childish "and he can do this and this and this and he is SOOOO strong" rules-writing for some armies.

 

It is going to take a while to walk this one back. Feels like it would have been better to give this 6 more months of work, at least, before sending to the printers.