How prevalent is 3D printing? And is it affecting the hobby?

[Brother Tyler]

Note that this discussion was an off-topic (okay, tangentially related topic) in the Legions Imperialis - a teaser of upcoming hh releases topic.

 

3D printing isn't directly related to the new Epic scale game, but it is certainly a valid topic of discussion related to the larger hobby.

[SkimaskMohawk]

9 minutes ago, Marshal Rohr said:

The price will be fine. Most people didn’t print Titanicus stuff only a few extremely online clubs. 

 

People absolutely printed stuff for Titanicus. Any Lucius patterns out there are printed, the direwolf was available months earlier through 3rd parties that made an STL, and  not to mention any upgrade kits to avoid paying ridiculous prices for the guns.

 

I'm not really confident in saying the price will be fine. 2 warhounds for 90 cad is fine; 1 thunderhawk for 60 cad is...not. I'll be happy to be wrong, but the stands are going to have a premium GW price attached. I got a full spectrum dominance at printed for $30 so that's kinda what they're up against.

[Marshal Rohr]

The word most in the sentence acknowledges some people printed things but they are a minority of just extremely online hobbyists. 

Edited July 2, 2023 by Marshal Rohr

[Noserenda]

Every in person Titanicus event i went to had various people from all over the country talking about different 3d printers and the new toys available. Battlebling grew from a tiny bits printer to a decent sized one almost entirely on Titanicus stuff and finally, it may well have been just a broader movement in the hobby but in our group it was definitely the watershed that moved 3d printing from one guys niche to something we all partook in.

Whenever Specialist games leaves a hole, delays releases or overcharges (Though obviously this is a spectrum) on things these days, there will be a swarm of printers going brrrrrt these days.

As for extremely online... Certainly in my group of Grogs im the only one remotely online and half of us have printers, making stuff for everyone.

 

[Marshal Rohr]

47 minutes ago, Noserenda said:

Every in person Titanicus event i went to had various people from all over the country talking about different 3d printers and the new toys available. Battlebling grew from a tiny bits printer to a decent sized one almost entirely on Titanicus stuff and finally, it may well have been just a broader movement in the hobby but in our group it was definitely the watershed that moved 3d printing from one guys niche to something we all partook in.

Whenever Specialist games leaves a hole, delays releases or overcharges (Though obviously this is a spectrum) on things these days, there will be a swarm of printers going brrrrrt these days.

As for extremely online... Certainly in my group of Grogs im the only one remotely online and half of us have printers, making stuff for everyone.

 

Your experience does not reflect a universal. The vast majority of people in this hobby in all its facets do not buy 3D prints and do no not own their own printers and printing software. 

[SkimaskMohawk]

2 hours ago, Marshal Rohr said:

they are a minority of just extremely online hobbyists. 

 

1 hour ago, Marshal Rohr said:

Your experience does not reflect a universal. The vast majority of people in this hobby in all its facets do not buy 3D prints and do no not own their own printers and printing software. 

 

Dude you're just making these ridiculous assertions. Yea, most people don't own their own printers, that's true. It's untrue that any printing or buying of prints in AT is reserved for extreme online hobbyists.

 

Like it just shows how far off the mark you are for AT. Every previewed release for that system post warmaster has been instantly jumped on by 3d designers and beaten gw to the punch by sometimes up to 6 months. Armigers, mechanicum knights, dire wolf, acastus grav/volkite/conversion beamer upgrades, and whatever else I'm forgetting. All out within the day of the preview. And before that it was the castigator and Acheron, it was the warmaster arm connectors, it was the warbringer turntable, and it was all forgeworld guns that are priced at £15. And before all that, it was actual cosmetic stuff, like embossed tilt shields for the warlord, banners, alternative weapons/heads, and other 6mm details for the bases. 

 

People that don't get involved with printing think it's still some super expensive, shoddy quality, emergent thing, when it's really very accessible and very high quality. 

[Noserenda]

1 hour ago, Marshal Rohr said:

Your experience does not reflect a universal. The vast majority of people in this hobby in all its facets do not buy 3D prints and do no not own their own printers and printing software. 

 

You realise you are waving a double edged sword around right? Or are you claiming you experience is  universal? 
 

[Marshal Rohr]

And MOST people do not buy 3D prints. Only a small percentage of extremely online hobbyists because it requires you to be in online communities, know 3D printing exists, know how to purchase the files, and know where to print them. It requires extra steps that MOST people won’t do. A small fraction of people doing it doesn’t make it super pervasive. So nothing I said is off the mark or untrue and you can keep pushing that it’s common but you’re wrong. It’s niche

Just now, Noserenda said:

 

You realise you are waving a double edged sword around right? Or are you claiming you experience is  universal? 
 

 Lol. I’m claiming statistically most people do not buy or print 3D prints for their wargames. Most people buy the box directly from GW or a third party retailer. 

[Gorgoff]

21 minutes ago, Marshal Rohr said:

 

 Lol. I’m claiming statistically most people do not buy or print 3D prints for their wargames. Most people buy the box directly from GW or a third party retailer. 

People online very often make up statistics to validate ther personal point of view.

83.7% of all people know that.

 

In our gaming club of 70+ people we have 20 with at least one 3D printer, in every nerd forum 3D printing is a very common and prominent topic,  in the Discord server with over 6700 member it is the norm to have 3D printed parts etc pp.

There are people who don't have a clue how massive 3D printing already is and I have a strong feeling that a lot of them work for GW.

But all of this are just my anecdotes. 

 

Back to the topic. 

I can't wait to build my first Warlord Titan. That model is a beauty and I want it.

What I wonder is if we will see Rules for an Emperor Titan. 

They have to do it, no?

Edited July 2, 2023 by Gorgoff

[Noserenda]

1 hour ago, Marshal Rohr said:

And MOST people do not buy 3D prints. Only a small percentage of extremely online hobbyists because it requires you to be in online communities, know 3D printing exists, know how to purchase the files, and know where to print them. It requires extra steps that MOST people won’t do. A small fraction of people doing it doesn’t make it super pervasive. So nothing I said is off the mark or untrue and you can keep pushing that it’s common but you’re wrong. It’s niche

 Lol. I’m claiming statistically most people do not buy or print 3D prints for their wargames. Most people buy the box directly from GW or a third party retailer. 

Yeah, based on what, because its feeling like you are just pulling on your own opinions rather than anything actually subjective. Unless youd care to share?  

[SkimaskMohawk]

1 hour ago, Marshal Rohr said:

I’m claiming statistically most people do not buy or print 3D prints for their wargames. Most people buy the box directly from GW or a third party retailer. 

 

You need some basis in math to use statistics; some sets of numbers to show the total and the subsets that make up that total. Guesses and gut feelings don't allow you to make a statement based on "statistics". 

[Marshal Rohr]

Games Workshop made over 200million in core revenue last year. There is no way GW is selling 200million worth of core products and that be the minority of customers. The position you two are taking is that people are 3D printing at least 200million worth of GW product for MOST people to be 3D printing (50%+1). That’s an insane position to take. If you position is MOST Titanicus players are 3D printing their titans that’s also insane. The Grandmaster Box sold out and the upgrade sprues sold out multiple times. Unless your position is that was just a conspiracy and none of them ever existed, someone is buying the thousands of these things they are making. 

 

 

 

https://assets.ctfassets.net/ost7hseic9hc/7cfv9PJCBejp8hwsTrRqeA/329a5d998b3b40deac3e67d41e468f00/2022-23-half-year-report-final.pdf

 

 

Edit: Also, you both are the exact extremely online hobbyist I’m talking about because you’ve both been online as long as I have. We are all so far into the hobby ocean we just sank past the Titan sub. 

Edited July 2, 2023 by Marshal Rohr

[Bung]

3 hours ago, Marshal Rohr said:

And MOST people do not buy 3D prints. Only a small percentage of extremely online hobbyists because it requires you to be in online communities, know 3D printing exists, know how to purchase the files, and know where to print them. It requires extra steps that MOST people won’t do. A small fraction of people doing it doesn’t make it super pervasive. So nothing I said is off the mark or untrue and you can keep pushing that it’s common but you’re wrong. It’s niche

 Lol. I’m claiming statistically most people do not buy or print 3D prints for their wargames. Most people buy the box directly from GW or a third party retailer. 

 

I think you should Check some common sites that sell those files and Look how often they are downloaded.

 

As the guy with a 3d Printer i always Print a bunch of stuff for others.

The only hurdle for most people is the combination of toxic resin and small children and spouses. 

 

[DeRome90]

28 minutes ago, Bung said:

 

I think you should Check some common sites that sell those files and Look how often they are downloaded.

 

As the guy with a 3d Printer i always Print a bunch of stuff for others.

The only hurdle for most people is the combination of toxic resin and small children and spouses. 

 

Especially the spouses 

 

I hope that the additions/releases after the starting box won't be in resin. If I want resin, I would use my printer since it is by far cheaper. (And no, I am not an extremely online hobbyist)

 

While AT has awesome minis, I never got to more than priming on the sprue, since I have no one to play against. But I have the hope that this will change thanks to this box (who doesn't like moving huge armies?).

[Brother Tyler]

An interesting and important point has been brought up: What data is everyone using to argue their points?

 

It's very easy to provide anecdotal evidence based upon our own experiences (and speculation), but none of us can claim to have the universal experiences or universal awareness of global trends regarding the hobby. Additive manufacturing/3D printing has certainly been a disruptive influence on the hobby, and that influence is sure to grow (and it's interesting to see the companies that are leveraging the broader availability of 3D printing in their support of their customers). Each of us can easily speak to our own personal experiences, and perhaps we can speak with some authority about hobbyists in our close personal circles. However, we can't necessarily speak for all hobbyists beyond our close personal circles. While some of us might believe that our personal experience that doesn't involve 3D printing might be representative of the larger community, others might have the opposite experience and make the opposite claim. Ultimately, unless there is some validated data for the global community as a whole, none of us has any standing to make authoritative claims one way or the other.

 

Yes, many players (those without access to 3D printing capabilities) will purchase the official products. And even though many of us might not have direct access to 3D printing capabilities, there are more and more companies that will do that work for clients (one such business is about 5 minutes away from me, for example). At the same time, many players will leverage 3D printing capabilities - sometimes in addition to purchasing the official products and sometimes instead of doing that. These players might have their own 3D printers, or they might have friends/acquaintances with those devices, or they might have access to someone that will do it for a fee. Regardless, the growing availability of 3D printing is certainly having some impact on the hobby and the companies that produce goods - the democratization of production capabilities changes the paradigm.

 

So we can continue squabbling about personal opinions without having data to back our arguments up, or we can take a more constructive approach: accept that others have experiences that differ from our own and neither of us can claim to have the "truth" without having data. And then we can shift to a constructive discussion about how we think 3D printing might shape the future of the hobby.

[OttoVonAwesome]

3-D printing def on the rise. It's never gonna take over or hurt GW's bottomline for a few simple reasons people are either printing knock offs they can't afford and never would have bought otherwise or they printing things GW isn't providing anyway. I have one and if GW makes a cool model I buy it. I don't waste time and print cycles printing flawed knock offs I save them for cool things I can't get like conversion bits weapons shoulder pads etc, rescaled versions of fw style older marks and discontinued older models and unique sculpts in some cases straight up better versions of things.

 

The idea that there's this great barrier to it though I gotta disagree totally cuase it was insanely easy for me to get into and I'm barely computer literate. If you personally don't care for it that's fine cuase time is money and how you spend your time is your thing. However it is here to stay and there's a ton of really wonderful designers and it does contribute to the hobby in a positive way in my opinion by providing more content and for some a cheaper way to collect more and thus play more games with things they normally could only dream of someday owning.

 

I have like 5 legion projects going thanks to 3-d printing and there's still alot of GW plastic in there one being 100% new mk 6 kits (not raven guard or alpha legion btw) and the others I never would have started if it weren't for the awesome stl's out there and have zero intention of printing tanks for and last I checked I can't print paint so that's 4 projects right there GW profiting off they normally wouldn't have either. I don't print proxies for other people either not so much that I'm morally against it I just don't want to be responsible for ugly models and think it's poor use of equipment compared to what I could be printing. The screens only have so many cycles before they burn out and you need to replace them same with the fep film.

 

I think when the new Epic comes out the fact that people kept it alive though 3-d printing will be a definite boost to it's potential success. You'll have players with fully painted legions already ready to go and not just a whole bunch of dudes with Titan legions wich of course there will be anyway lol. But yeah I think 3-d printing is great and that's my story.

[Sword Brother Adelard]

Ok, here's an example I think I can back.

Maximal Fire runs the biggest AT events going, I just went back and looked at their pictures from their last event and there were I think 20 entrants, by my reckoning all but 3 of the armies had 3D printed parts of some variety. And that's far from uncommon in AT. Be it 3D printed weapons, terrain, or even just titan name base plates, 3D printing is a massive part of the hobby in that game, to the extent that it's pretty much omnipresent.

 

I myself print the vast majority of my terrain with a filament printer, and have even moved onto making my own base toppers as well. 

[Warhead01]

I did start to read up on buying and running a 3d printer but decided against it. I realized I just had no interest in learning the software needed. It's just easier to get on the google and do image searches until I find what I want and who is selling prints. I own a handful of 3d prints, weapons and bits mostly. I have a few friends who were talking about getting printers themselves but I have no idea if they ever did.  I had imagined most people knew 3d printing was a thing and were more familiar with it than I am. So the idea that it's not common place would surprise me.  The club had several people with printers, which would make me think that where ever you find a pool pf players at least one or two of them might have a printer or know someone who runs prints. It feels like a natural progression to the hobby experience at this point.  

[Guest]

4 minutes ago, Warhead01 said:

I did start to read up on buying and running a 3d printer but decided against it. I realized I just had no interest in learning the software needed. It's just easier to get on the google and do image searches until I find what I want and who is selling prints. I own a handful of 3d prints, weapons and bits mostly. I have a few friends who were talking about getting printers themselves but I have no idea if they ever did.  I had imagined most people knew 3d printing was a thing and were more familiar with it than I am. So the idea that it's not common place would surprise me.  The club had several people with printers, which would make me think that where ever you find a pool pf players at least one or two of them might have a printer or know someone who runs prints. It feels like a natural progression to the hobby experience at this point.  

 

Pretty much me. 

 

One of my good friends has a printer and frodo's the hell out of me :).

 

To the point I am replacing all my shoulderpads, guns, helmets and backpacks.

 

 

[Orion]

Nobody prints anything in my circle of friends. We don't attend larger clubs and events but we do buy a lot of stuff. 

 

I like the point about empirical evidence. Profit data as well as what GW chooses to release I think are decent data points. 

Like I'm not sure Epic would have been made without Titanicus selling well.

[Arkhanist]

Certainly no-one can say beyond their own experiences as to the prevalence of  3d printing, as it no doubt varies heavily within different groups and communities. I can definitely say that there's at least one person who owns a good 3d resin printer and still buys GW plastic - me!

 

Resin printing is not a trivial thing to get into, and involves chemicals that need to be handled with appropriate care (99% IPA is no joke in its own right), so I'm not going to argue that buying off-the-shelf plastic isn't just easier if you're just after stock models, and plenty popular if GW's sales figures are anything to go by. And there's nothing wrong with that - GW's plastic is good quality, intricate designs, and easy to work with.

 

Good knock-off 3D designs of full GW models also tend to be short lived due to the DMCA, and are morally questionable at best, so often most of what you see of whole model designs are eh, kinda iffy - you can usually tell the difference if you're familiar with the original models. If you can't afford GW models, then 3d printing knock-offs or 3rd party designs is definitely cheaper in the long run - but it's not really a *direct* substitute, and I don't believe it's a HUGE part of say the overall 40k market any more than chinacast is, and for the same reasons.

 

Where 3d printing really comes into its own currently though, is making stuff you *can't* buy off the shelf from GW.

 

There is a company that is doing a brisk trade in selling 3d printed parts, that I see a *lot* of in conversions - shapeways - shoulderpads, guns, dreadnought parts, nameplates, the list goes on. Pop goes the monkey was selling enough there to be worth setting up their own store with even more options! Ebay and etsy also have plenty of sellers of various bits and models; they come up more often than resin casters when I search. There is a HUGE amount of 3d printed DnD stuff.

 

(Hell, I'm designing my own custom 3d print parts these days for personal use, stuff I used to buy - beats the hell out of sculpting greenstuff! But I believe that's still VERY niche.)

 

Conversion World, one of the highest quality resin casters of unique bits I've come across, have just shut their doors due to long-term falling demand, and are shifting to shapeways.

 

When it comes to alternative models, Anvil Industry and Victoria Minis, two well respected and long standing resin caster companies are both getting into 3d printing as an alternative to traditional casting. There are absolutely TONS of well funded patreons selling their own unique STLs for every game system imaginable - for just one example, one page rules, who have been mentioned a few times here with grimdark future as a niche alternative to 40k, sell a lot of designs intended for use with it. And those patreon models are a lot of what show up on ebay and etsy from licenced merchant-tier printers if you're after something different than e.g. GW or WOTC sell.

 

So I think 3d printing is currently competing mainly with 3rd party resin casters, and I believe it is becoming quite a dominant force there, either directly printed or via 3d printed part sellers - because they're as good and even more varied, and definitely cheaper, and they are easy to buy.

 

Another one is games that GW gave up on. Battlefleet Gothic has been kept alive quite nicely by 3rd party models, and Net Epic Armageddon too - when basically your most prevalent option is to print your own or buy from someone who does, or a caster, well, that's what people do. I believe metal casting is still a goer here too, but I couldn't guess which is more popular. Niche games, of course. But I believe this is first time GW is returning to an old game where 3rd party models, including 3d printed, has become very prevalent and normalised for some time for the existing players. How much the draw of new official plastic will bring back in old and new players who only want GW models, and who will switch over, and what the relative success of either will be in future, especially if GW relies heavily on FW resin as they have for AT? I guess we'll find out!

Edited July 2, 2023 by Arkhanist

[Orion]

Not to derail, but the "beyond the tabletop" guy builds conversion parts with styrene and casts those in resin.

Definitely gives a cool oldschool FW look.

 

Just thought it was an interesting deviation from most 3rd party's processes (printing then casting, or just stls). 

[sarabando]

just searching #epic30k on instagram shows 8/9 pics being related to printing. (first pic is a warmaster but is from a well know printing services page) 

 

[Vassakov]

I think people are talking a little bit at cross purposes here - to a degree, I think 3D printing is rapidly becoming the norm, but supplementary to the main hobby rather than replacing it. 

 

When I started, 20 years ago (Russ' fangs, I'm getting old) if you wanted custom bits, you essentially had to make them yourself, or maybe something existed online but there really wasn't much. Green stuff and kitbashing was basically it, and I've got the slightly derpy Space Wolves to prove it.

 

Now, though... well, I've probably dropped the better part of £1000 on GW Horus Heresy plastic and resin (admittedly mostly from a FLGS with a good discount ) and then I've picked up plenty of 3rd party 3D printed bits, either online or from a friend, to customise them as Word Bearers- books, candles, parchment, a couple of gnarly weapons and some shoulder joints for a resin Contemptor to utilise the spare plastic weapons. 

 

Sure, you'll get a few  who proudly proclaim they 3D printed an entire force, but they are (at least for now) a noisy minority. But I wouldn't be surprised if a substantial minority - maybe even getting towards a majority - are using it as another tool in their hobbying to make a collection theirs.

 

But hey, just my two Imperial Crowns. 

[Lexington]

9 hours ago, Marshal Rohr said:

The word most in the sentence acknowledges some people printed things but they are a minority of just extremely online hobbyists. 

Uh, I just got back from the game store, AoS and Heresy day, and at least half the armies there had some printed minis in them.

 

It’s quite a bit more prevalent than you might think.