How prevalent is 3D printing? And is it affecting the hobby?

[Beaky Brigade]

I think Blood Bowl is a useful segment of the Games Workshop hobby to analyse the impact of 3D printing. Though the actual game is beyond the scope of this forum I think it's worth mentioning it as it's a GW game that has been impacted by 3rd party model production in general, and more recently 3D printing, and we may be able to draw some conclusions on how this might affect the 40k hobby going forward. For disclosure I do not own a 3d printer and do not support models that aim to copy GW sculpts 1:1

The first thing to note is that 3rd party teams were already widely accepted within the community before 3D printing really took off. This is mainly down to official teams being unavailable after GW discontinued specialist games the 1st time round, up until the relaunch in 2016. If you wanted a new team, 3rd parties and second hand models were your only options, and at a non GW event no one will bat an eyelid at your 3rd party team.

 

When I started playing Blood Bowl in 2017 kickstarter teams and very old pewter minis from creaky websites were the main ports of call for 3rd party minis, though until recently I've only purchased offical GW teams and minis. Traditional 3rd party makers generally did not compete with GW on price, a full metal or resin team is maybe £60-£100, compared to £30.00 for a GW plastic box (though this has not always been a complete team so it gets a bit more muddy). What you get with a 3rd party team nowdays is visual variety from the GW teams, and also support for long standing teams that GW has not yet made into plastic in the 2016-2023 period.

The other important thing is that Blood Bowl players, in my personal experience, are more interested in playing the game itself over any particular visual aesthetic that GW has proprietary ownership of. They want high fantasy sports teams, and that's a very general brief that can vary to suit a lot of tastes, and is also hard for GW to claim exclusive ownership of this, and the 3rd party sculptors generally do their own thing rather than trying to copycat existing GW sculpts (with some exceptions). Veteran Blood Bowl players IMO have a more counter cultural and less fanboyish attitude to GW than many 40k players (for good and ill), and are happy to play with minis they bought in the 1980s, and still haven't painted!

 

Another thing about Blood Bowl is the very slow pace of change. Up until the 2016 relaunch new teams were rarely added to the game, and existing teams barely changed, so what miniatures were required to play was very consistent.

Finally we can consider the miniatures required to play a game of blood bowl, which is generally 11-16 figures per team, which can be seen as a complete product, and optional accessories and Star Players. This lends itself well to a small 3rd party maker or digital sculptor, as they can design a complete team fairly quickly and it doesn't have to match up to the design aesthetic of any other existing products. As long as you can differentiate one player type from another anything goes.

 

So we have a niche skirmish game under supported by GW for years with a cult following that already accepts non GW models, which IMO has made it a fertile ground for 3d printing.
 

So what has the impact of 3D printing been? This is just based on my anecdotal experience of getting back into the game lately, and is not scientific in any way.

3D printing has added a new way to obtain a 3rd party team, which for a non 3d printer owner like myself, does seem to be cheaper than buying directly from a traditional cast miniature company, and perhaps on par with a GW plastic team, and it has also created a very aggressive release schedule of 3rd party teams; some of the more prolific digital sculptors are releasing STL files of 1/2 a new team or a whole new team every month. This stands in contrast to GW who perhaps release 1-2 teams a year as of late. Some high profile Blood Bowl podcasts include the release of 3rd party teams in their news round ups, treating them on par with official GW news for the game.

The main hurt to GW has probably been to Star Players and Big Guys, who can been considered equivalent to special characters in 40k, the heroes for hire and hulking thugs/monsters of the game.

Since 2016 Games workshop has sold these mainly as Forge World Resin models, in the region of £20.00 to £40.00 per single figure. Some of these sculpts have been hit and miss, and the pricing sometimes egregious. Now, on platforms like Etsy a 3d printing enthusiast can sell you a licensed print of an alternative 3d sculpt for £10.00 including postage, which I consider to be a slightly mad. I recently went down this road with obtaining a Minotaur for my chaos team. The GW model was ok but I felt that £30.00 was too much for the GW version and I dreaded dealing with all the inevitable forge world quality issues, so I took a punt on a £10.00 Etsy model and was pleasantly surprised with the whole process. That's £30.00 not going to GW.


The problem for GW is the same as character models for 40k, they are important to the game but it's hard to sell many of them, and if you make rules for them and no models then 3rd parties will fulfil the gap in the market.

Some of these sculptors move so quickly now, that they can gazump an official GW Star Player release between the announcement of the GW release and the pre order, sometimes within two weeks! So GW have had to keep their cards close to their chest about releasing new Star Players.

Despite all this, I personally think that most people are still buying GW plastic teams. Browsing a few of my favourite Blood Bowl facebook groups this evening it still seems like the overwhelming majority of recently painted teams are the GW plastic teams. It's the most logical entry point for a new player lured in from another GW game, the PC game, or just seeing players at the local gaming club, and plastic teams represent decent value IMO.

I think that most players buying 3rd party teams are veterans who may already have several teams, or are 3d printing enthusiasts.

I think also that the range of alternatives on offer is expanding the market rather than entirely cannibalising it, but if there is cannibalising then I would be more worried as a traditional 3rd party miniature producer, who may have invested in metal or resin production techniques and is now being undercut on price and in some cases, quality, by a 3d printing upstart.

 

Personally I still see 3D printing as a supplement to my hobby, I still think it will take a couple more generations of tech before I would own one, and the number of makers and enthusiasts out there makes it a competitive market for people wanting stuff printed. For now it's not killing GW (just look at their sales figures), but giving every hobbyist more options.

Edited July 2, 2023 by Beaky Brigade

[Squark]

I could attitudes towards 3D printing being a regional thing. My Heresy group has a fair number of printed models (disproportionately stuff that would be resin), while others use it to supplement stuff that's OoP or unreleased.

Edited July 3, 2023 by Squark

[Evil Eye]

Speaking as a proud owner of a Mars 3 Pro, who gets a lot of use out of it and is designing my own models for it, my personal take on it is that I prefer using it to get models GW simply doesn't offer (be they of completely unrepresented subjects or ones where the official models aren't my bag/lack variety). I generally don't bother with direct clones of GW models, unless said model is OOP unobtainable normally.

[KenaiPhoneix]

3D Printes are not going anywhere. And GW (or anyone) cant do a thing to it. Now if they where smart they would find a way to take advantage of that.

 

People will always get the "Official" products, but maybe they could even just post the files to print what you want in the case that you have a 3D Printer and know how to use it (And lower you prices ofc). This with the more accessible rules and free units info (aka Codex) and rules, with get more people into the 40K universe. And it is in this last stuff that they can get the money: Official games, comics, books, TV Shows, etc. The tabletop game is just the hook to get people into really getting into the universe. Yes, they do all of that, but Im talking about taking those products to anther level.

 

Even if 40K is a really known IP, many people just "heard" about it. And when you tell them "Just read all this books", "Look at these 3 hours documentary of the beginning of the imperium" or "Just get a combat patrol and lets play! Oh yeah that the official price" scare them. But if they have a block buster TV Series and then you can practically start playing the tabletop game for free. You can get more people hook into the universe and in now time they will be masters of the 3 and half hour documentary of the Imperium and the war in the heaven

[Orion]

23 minutes ago, KenaiPhoneix said:

3D Printes are not going anywhere. And GW (or anyone) cant do a thing to it. Now if they where smart they would find a way to take advantage of that.

 

People will always get the "Official" products, but maybe they could even just post the files to print what you want in the case that you have a 3D Printer and know how to use it (And lower you prices ofc). This with the more accessible rules and free units info (aka Codex) and rules, with get more people into the 40K universe. And it is in this last stuff that they can get the money: Official games, comics, books, TV Shows, etc. The tabletop game is just the hook to get people into really getting into the universe. Yes, they do all of that, but Im talking about taking those products to anther level.

 

Even if 40K is a really known IP, many people just "heard" about it. And when you tell them "Just read all this books", "Look at these 3 hours documentary of the beginning of the imperium" or "Just get a combat patrol and lets play! Oh yeah that the official price" scare them. But if they have a block buster TV Series and then you can practically start playing the tabletop game for free. You can get more people hook into the universe and in now time they will be masters of the 3 and half hour documentary of the Imperium and the war in the heaven

 

Likewise, GW aren't giving you official STLs anytime soon because of piracy. It would be like recasts on steroids.

[MegaVolt87]

3D print guys are just like the air brush bro's in their preaching etc. 3D printing is still too much trouble for many people, just like airbrushing is. Yes its had an impact, but its not the revolution people keep saying. 1:1 copies of OOP GW models is a non issue, GW can't lose money on something they no longer sell. However, 1:1 copies of existing GW models but re-scaled is much more of a grey area. (eg HH SoH Reaver Squad). With GW's current range sprawl, many of us are not getting any younger either. Can we really wait much longer for something like SoH Reavers re-scale, given that they are relatively new models all things considered.

 

The best thing 3D printing can do, is give GW a kick to do things faster so they don't have range gaps and lose out badly if they take too long to fill it. GW is driving people who like buying official product into going 3rd party, good example is lack of HH melee/ troops upgrades. Also inconsistent application of the no model, no rules is eroding attachment to the models themselves. The CSM jump lord with lightning claws, discontinued + rules pulled. Loyalist JP cpt, never had a proper model to represent it, still has rules regardless. At that point, why not do an alt model for basically free for SM Cpt vs kitbashing one with GW parts ? Kinda related, but really GW are eroding their own character sales through a combination of monopose/ mono loadout, uninspired sculpts (eg- primaris Lt you can kitbashlast after you buy majority of a 2k 40k list). 

[The Unseen]

If GW was forward thinking, they'd be looking into selling licensed STL files. When the hobbyists and small sellers can look at a preview image and then have printed decent looking parts 6 months before release date of the "official" stuff, its moved well beyond a niche. Yes of course people would then immediately have them online, but even now the barrier for the copies are so low it wouldn't matter much, almost everything GW makes can be found as a free or cheap STL fairly quickly, often within weeks of release.

As is, I'm in the process of moving and plan on diving in myself once thats done (my current apartment is not conducive to it at all, only 1 openable window right in the middle of the living room and poor ventilation) - I'm not waiting another year for rescaled assault marines, and GW has really ticked me off with their recent choices so I don't feel like *waiting* to then give them money.

[Gorgoff]

A couple of years ago I read a bis ass survey from the EU on how much money is lost in the toy business because of Recaster. Was 400 million back then. I guess around 2018-ish? So way before 3d printing became a thing.

 

Speaking of, a minute ago I saw the first 3D files for every :cuss:ing SM model inside the new box plus alternatives in different armor marks, so that is that. 

I'd still buy the box from third parties (to get the sweet 25% off) to show my support for this game but it is good to know that I can print additional reinforcements if I want to.

[Karhedron]

I have only dabbled slightly with 3D printing but my experience is that it is not going to threaten GW's business model in the next few years. Standard filament printers don't have a high enough quality to make good minis although they are passable for things like terrain. Higher end resin printers can compete with stuff like FW on quality but have a higher cost. Buying other people's 3D prints online is often more expensive than GW's own kits so is not likely to be a problem. Someone gave some resin bodies they had printed and I actually needed to buy an original kit to complete them since buying the arms, heads and backpacks individually would have been even more expensive.

 

3D printing may disrupt GW's business in the future but it is not quite there yet IMHO.

[Bung]

13 hours ago, JayJapanB said:

Not to derail, but the "beyond the tabletop" guy builds conversion parts with styrene and casts those in resin.

Definitely gives a cool oldschool FW look.

 

Just thought it was an interesting deviation from most 3rd party's processes (printing then casting, or just stls). 

 

 

I still do some silicone moulds for stuff, even if i own a 3d Printer Its a nice skill to have and if you only can afford a small printer its an easy way to duplicate models.

 

The question is rather what part of the hobby does 3d printing affect?

GW, all table top gaming or something else?

 

Its mostly miniatures bits GW doesnt make or are simply to expansive for most or alternate Models (lets be honest, there are better artists out there as the ones hired by GW) or OoP models which mostly hurt recasters. (for GW and a few other games)

 

The other point is, it helps driving smaller games or games without official support like Epic or BFG.

 

The other thing that may change is how you get terrrain, there are a lot of designers doing modular stuff from boards to buildings, here is where i expect the support with plastics will decline for most games in favor for files and MDF stuff.

 

If i look into other games, there is only one games, that comes close with 3d file support and bits to 40K stiff and that is Star Wars Legion.

But thats incorporated in SW as a lot of players want alternative Miniatures for Aliens, etc.

Other smaller not GW games dont get much support from the 3d printing Community, Corvus Belli tries to do a decent game and keep their customers buying stuff, which seems to work, same for a few other games (or the time isnt worth it for the stl designers).

 

What else could be affected?

Its probably the Meta Chasing Tourney scene when players show up with the latest cheese for cheap, but to be honest, dont really care.

 

GWs bottomline? Probably not how much people imagine, they get probably will get enough new customers to compensate foor years.

 

 

[Matcap86]

I use 3d prints almost exclusively to get stuff I can't get from GW themselves. (i.e. conversion bits and rescaled kits)

 

It's a nice addition to the hobby, but still plenty expensive when I pay someone else to do it; as it is a hobby in itself to get decent prints out of the machines. Or at least, prints I'm okay with quality wise. Then it sits between regular GW and FW expenses wise. 

 

I'm not expecting it to really affect GW's bottom line. Mainly because most of the stuff that comes out of 3d printers, is dependent on, derivative of or straight up copying GW's stuff. 

 

 

[Scribe]

3D printing probably hurts your local non-GW shop, far more then it hurts GW.

[Cactus]

A couple of people have said that the cost of ordering 3d printed parts is close to parity with buying GW's product. Does this place a soft price ceiling, for at least some people, where they would switch from GW to 3d prints if GW went above a certain price point? In that case the presence of 3d print alternatives benefits everyone (apart from GW) by exerting a little downward pressure on prices.

 

I don't honestly expect it to make even a blip on the annual profit charts but it's an interaction I hadn't considered before.

[Badpainting]

3D Printing is very much a thing in my local wargaming community.

 

The majority of the players tend to purchase the products but a few have also simply 3D printed their entire armies plus extras.

[Warhead01]

8 hours ago, Scribe said:

3D printing probably hurts your local non-GW shop, far more then it hurts GW.

I don't think I agree.  You have no way to measure that in a meaningful way.  For example you are not accounting for any person who buys or prints who also does no frequent an local game store, just plays at home. That particular person isn't hurting any game shop. 
I mean what's hurting them more, 3d printing or not having inventory and telling a would be patron that the shop can order the product. It's the future now the would be patron can just order what ever they want from who ever has it at the best price online.  I think most shops have bigger problems for their bottom line than 3d printed models. 
I'd say shops should step up their game. Better terrain on their tables to bring people in, charge to use the tables*, stock their shelves or get 3d printers in house. 


* I would pay, especially if it meant not having a herd of gamers who were not invited standing around the table.


 

[MegaVolt87]

3 hours ago, Cactus said:

A couple of people have said that the cost of ordering 3d printed parts is close to parity with buying GW's product. Does this place a soft price ceiling, for at least some people, where they would switch from GW to 3d prints if GW went above a certain price point? In that case the presence of 3d print alternatives benefits everyone (apart from GW) by exerting a little downward pressure on prices.

 

I don't honestly expect it to make even a blip on the annual profit charts but it's an interaction I hadn't considered before.

 

This is a good point, 3D printing is already getting pretty popular here in Australia (guess why). However, despite that there are still plenty of people like myself who don't like the print quality or the look of many STL's,  so are still buying the official product regardless. GW is on the clock, but it's a slow one fortunately for them. As soon as the high quality prints that cost mega bucks currently, become affordable that's when GW will be in trouble. 

 

GW is a sunk cost hobby, no point in me saving a couple bucks on a good primarch STL, high quality printer/ printer order. By the time I get what I want, I may as well have bought the official primarch model at that point anyway. Same with transportation of warhammer minitures, I have spent thousands on them, may as well spend several hundred dollars more on good cases/foam from battlefoam. 

[spessmarine]

On 7/2/2023 at 7:09 PM, Squark said:

I could attitudes towards 3D printing being a regional thing. My Heresy group has a fair number of printed models (disproportionately stuff that would be resin), while others use it to supplement stuff that's OoP or unreleased.

 

Which I feel makes sense, given quality control issues, pricing, and the material itself, FW has more to be concerned about when it comes to 3D prints.

Large scale injection moulding, especially for plastic cement friendly materials, will be trickier to best.

[Scribe]

2 hours ago, Warhead01 said:

I don't think I agree.  You have no way to measure that in a meaningful way.  For example you are not accounting for any person who buys or prints who also does no frequent an local game store, just plays at home. That particular person isn't hurting any game shop. 
I mean what's hurting them more, 3d printing or not having inventory and telling a would be patron that the shop can order the product. It's the future now the would be patron can just order what ever they want from who ever has it at the best price online.  I think most shops have bigger problems for their bottom line than 3d printed models. 
I'd say shops should step up their game. Better terrain on their tables to bring people in, charge to use the tables*, stock their shelves or get 3d printers in house. 


* I would pay, especially if it meant not having a herd of gamers who were not invited standing around the table.


 

I mean, I wildly disagree. The margins at your local shop are probably a bit tighter than GWs.

[Orion]

17 minutes ago, MegaVolt87 said:

 

This is a good point, 3D printing is already getting pretty popular here in Australia (guess why). However, despite that there are still plenty of people like myself who don't like the print quality or the look of many STL's,  so are still buying the official product regardless. GW is on the clock, but it's a slow one fortunately for them. As soon as the high quality prints that cost mega bucks currently, become affordable that's when GW will be in trouble. 

 

GW is a sunk cost hobby, no point in me saving a couple bucks on a good primarch STL, high quality printer/ printer order. By the time I get what I want, I may as well have bought the official primarch model at that point anyway. Same with transportation of warhammer minitures, I have spent thousands on them, may as well spend several hundred dollars more on good cases/foam from battlefoam. 

I was looking into this recently, and the idea that Australian prices are high is kinda overblown. It varies greatly from model to model. Some models end up cheaper than even the UK. Aus list prices also include all tax and duty, which many other countries don't. (but you still have to pay)

 

Totally agree about your second paragraph though. I've also found as I've got older, hobby time and energy is valuable enough that I'd rather spend it on models I like the most, regardless of cost/quantity.

[Bung]

12 hours ago, Scribe said:

3D printing probably hurts your local non-GW shop, far more then it hurts GW.

 

That non GW Shops pay their bills mostly with Magic and other Trading Card Games, Tabletop and Boardgames are just a bonus.

 

[Scribe]

Just now, Bung said:

 

That non GW Shops pay their bills mostly with Magic and other Trading Card Games, Tabletop and Boardgames are just a bonus.

 

 

 

Yes, and the ongoing efforts by Wizards to cut out the middle man (FGLS) has continued to cut into the margins of those shops. I know, as I frequent many of them and have talked to the owners for years, or in a few cases over a decade.

 

So who is hurt more by someone rolling up with a 3d printed army instead of one they bought via the FLGS?

 

The shop, or GW?

 

I'm failing to see how it can be anyone but the shops that are already struggling.

[Orion]

24 minutes ago, Bung said:

 

That non GW Shops pay their bills mostly with Magic and other Trading Card Games, Tabletop and Boardgames are just a bonus.

 

 

Why don't they just print cards on a 2D printer?

[MegaVolt87]

1 hour ago, JayJapanB said:

Why don't they just print cards on a 2D printer?

 

Same reason why they don't sell GW recasts and 1:1 3D printed GW models- they get blacklisted and sued for copyright infringements. There is already big drama when the odd good counterfeit cards slip through and sold as legit product as singles. 

[Arkhanist]

3 hours ago, Scribe said:

 

Yes, and the ongoing efforts by Wizards to cut out the middle man (FGLS) has continued to cut into the margins of those shops. I know, as I frequent many of them and have talked to the owners for years, or in a few cases over a decade.

 

So who is hurt more by someone rolling up with a 3d printed army instead of one they bought via the FLGS?

 

The shop, or GW?

 

I'm failing to see how it can be anyone but the shops that are already struggling.

 

The same applies if they turned up with an army they bought from a different shop, or GW online though - either way, they haven't bought the models from the FLGS.

 

FLGS can of course ban 3d printed armies; the guys that tend to do that also tend to be sort of people that will also brag about how they saved sooo much money and you should do it to. Same as if they came with e.g. green army men or spruecons.

 

I don't think many would have a problem with the shop kicking out the kind of person for actively promoting getting models from somewhere else and harming the gaming experience of others, same as if they turned up and started telling people they should buy from $online_discount_store instead. For a FLGS that doesn't charge for tables, then the implicit contract is that you also buy some stuff from instore too, and that applies regardless of 3d printing, buying 3rd party proxies, or from an online disounter.

 

The bigger problem, IMO, is FLGS banning 3d prints entirely, just as some ban forgeworld and 3rd party proxies (cos you can't buy them in the FLGS). I like my models having my personal touch, and not having duplicates, and 3d printing provides far more options and bitz to personalise my GW models. My latest thing is printing taller legs; bringing old plastic 1stborn models up to the CSM/mark VI standard - they look much better proportioned. That, or shoulderpads, or custom helmets or banners has no impact at all on whether or not I'm buying the base kits from the FLGS on not. (forgeworld, in not being able to sell their obscenely priced assault arms to me though, different story) And even when I have a substantial backlog (which I do), I definitely always need paint! So banning me and others like me - who I think are a lot more common than entire army guys - THAT hurts the FLGS for no real benefit.

 

My current FLGS just charges for tables instead, and are plenty happy for people to play games they don't sell, don't care what models you bring, and even have store copies of boardgames if you like. I've heard of FLGS that even have their own 3d printers, and offer printing as a service for e.g. terrain.

 

3d printing has a number of facets, and chucking all 3d printer users - whether they have their own, or buy their parts from online - in one bucket isn't accurate and doesn't help. If a FLGS business model is totally reliant on selling GW models to physical customers, then surely cheaper online discounters are a much bigger threat than 3d printers are.

Edited July 4, 2023 by Arkhanist

[sarabando]

every generation of printers make them more plug and play, we have come from having to build your printer from a kit that produced a low resolution plastic spaghetti mess to a 12k airfiltered, networked resin printer that you can load presupported minis into with nothing more than a usb stick. in the space of about 3 years. So 3 years from now, with possible AI integration in the software side of things you are going to see easier to produce results faster. 

 

Now will this kill gw? no it wont, any one who thinks it will is delusional. It will however knock them back, because frankly printer artists are faster and more in touch with the community. GW likes to keep their minis a secret until release to maximise preorder hype. So if they drop a dud mini they have no chance to change it before its too late in the production cycle, for example the SW mk6 heads. Someone like redwarden minis however he can act on feedback and tweak his release before making it available. 

 

GW doesnt sell a pack of 10 mk4 jump packs which is why sanguinary guard packs on ebay are £7 each. or i can buy a printed version that is near identical for £1 + shipping.  This is the reason i got a printer, i LOVE studded shoulder pads, mk5 armour is THE tits. However i cant get huge numbers of studded pads (pre mk6 release) they normally cost more from bits resellers or were a FW only thing. So i could print out a squads worth easily. 

 

convienence to the consumer will be the name of the game in the future, look at streaming it offered convenient choice to the viewer over cable TV and it basically killed cable (and like lucius the eternal it turned into cable itself but thats a whole different thing) 

 

IF Gw wanted to address printing in a positive manner the easiest way to do it would be to offer a licencing program where a creator can get a shiny official GW licenced product badge and can use their copywritten terms etc with what ever caveats GW wants and GW then gets a kick back on a product that cost them nothing for a sale they were never going to make.  They could add it to perks on WH+ if they keep that going or make it available through WD.