How prevalent is 3D printing? And is it affecting the hobby?

[Marshal Rohr]

Post a picture of the printed models. 

[Helias_Tancred]

I know a few people in my hobby circle that have used 3D prints for 40k, Horus Heresy, and Titanicus. There was a four man group that played mostly Horus Heresy and didn't spend a dime on official FW models, they got all their stuff from a couple Chinese recasters. You couldn't tell a difference when they were painted and on the table top.

 

It's becoming more numerous. I'm not a pro on the data, but I'm seeing and hearing more of it, and I'll leave it at that.

 

I do believe it is something Games Workshop is going to have to develop a plan for and address because it's a wave thats still far off but building and moving closer to them and the tabletop hobbies overall. If I were any company involved in table top and miniature wargaming my top future plan would be how to handle the emergence of 3D printing. Its coming and nothing is going to stop it.

 

 

[Castlerook]

4 hours ago, Marshal Rohr said:

Post a picture of the printed models. 

I would if I had any printed up yet. The last 6 months were crazy in my old job and I'm working on a Dark Angels army for HH, as well as a Militia force and starting an Eldar army for 10th, so the Solar Auxilia are a little low on my list at the moment.

 

Wait, I do have a test print and test scheme.

(Oh and for reference, they're roughly the same size as the current Cadians and Chaos Cultists)

Edited July 7, 2023 by Castlerook

[Orion]

7 hours ago, Castlerook said:

I spoke about this in another thread but it feels more appropriate to share here.

 

Ever since they came out, I have wanted a Solar Auxilia force, but the price always dissuaded me. €323 for a bare minimum force of one Command Section and 2 Lasrifle sections (€99 and €224 respectively). As you can imagine, I was not paying that...at least not without selling someone else's liver and kidneys... Where was I?

 

Oh yeah, Solar Auxilia. Well, as luck would have it, when the Navy Breacher team was released last year for Kill Team, I was inspired to look around for proxies. And came across a fantastic sculptor that not only did an amazing Breacher team, but did them in a style reminiscent of the Solar Auxilia. Not just the breacher squad, but so much more.

 

For half the cost of FW Solar Auxilia command squad, I got files for lasgun troopers, veterans with power axes, heavy weapon troopers, command squad and the commander, which resin permitting means I can print up my dream Auxilia army...right after I finish my current armies...

 

But the fact remains, I was forced to look for alternatives because GW forced my hand by pricing me out of their product. I'm not an isolated incident and I can only see this happening more and more until GW acknowledges they've created a problem and deals with it, or they get outdone by 3rd party sculptors. And the latter isn't that far off.

So they forced your hand.... but you haven't finished your current armies yet?

"I can't afford that" - proceeds to show massive backlog

I don't think that's an isolated thing either

[Castlerook]

1 hour ago, JayJapanB said:

So they forced your hand.... but you haven't finished your current armies yet?

"I can't afford that" - proceeds to show massive backlog

I don't think that's an isolated thing either

There's a major difference between having to pay over €300 for 46 resin minis for a barely legal army and then having to expand that force and the various plastic army boxed sets GW has released over the last few years. The Militia is going to be an allied force solely from the Cadia Stands boxed set.

[Orion]

52 minutes ago, Castlerook said:

There's a major difference between having to pay over €300 for 46 resin minis for a barely legal army and then having to expand that force and the various plastic army boxed sets GW has released over the last few years. The Militia is going to be an allied force solely from the Cadia Stands boxed set.

You do you.

Personally I've found I get a lot more joy out of "€300 for 46 resin minis" than consuming the latest boxed set hype trains.

Value is only value if you actually want to build and paint the minis.

[Grotsmasha]

Here's a thought. A lot, a lot of FWs cost to the consumer is the cost of labour. Creating and maintaining molds, casting and demolding casts.

What If? FW offered both Resin cast AND physical 3D print versions, prints being reduced cost? Say, 15-20% less

Would you go for the Prints or Casts?

Edited July 7, 2023 by Grotsmasha

[Orion]

13 minutes ago, Grotsmasha said:

Here's a thought. A lot, a lot of FWs cost to the consumer is the cost of labour. Creating and maintaining molds, casting and demolding casts.

What If? FW offered both Resin cast AND physical 3D print versions, prints being reduced cost?

Would you go for the Prints or Casts?

Personally I like casts.

Also labour is local jobs for Brits. Jobs that haven't been outsourced to cheap overseas casting. I can respect that. 

As for it being cheaper. I'm not sure it necessarily would be. It's hard to say without knowing their current setup. 

[Bung]

28 minutes ago, Grotsmasha said:

Here's a thought. A lot, a lot of FWs cost to the consumer is the cost of labour. Creating and maintaining molds, casting and demolding casts.

What If? FW offered both Resin cast AND physical 3D print versions, prints being reduced cost? Say, 15-20% less

Would you go for the Prints or Casts?

 

With FW Quality Control as it is now?

Neither.

 

I can get better miniatures with my cheap 4k printer than stuff that is Sold by FW.

There are a lot miniatures from FW sold that show the layer lines from the master miniatures. Exodus or the big orc bomber for Aeronautica as example.

 

As long as GW doesnt do higher quality prints or do some post cleanup on their printed masters i refuse the FW price.

You can get better and cheaper prints from a lot of small 3d printing vendors.

 

[Grotsmasha]

1 minute ago, Bung said:

There are a lot miniatures from FW sold that show the layer lines from the master miniatures.

Yeah, my DA Leviathan does too.

[Felix Antipodes]

FW lasted as long as it did as a top dog resin caster because it offered models that GW itself wouldn’t put out and because they offered better quality prints than their third party rivals.  Neither of these things are now true.  Their range is visibly shrinking by the week and the third party companies are producing models and bits equal to, if not better, than FW itself.

3D printers are not yet at the stage where they threaten GW itself, although I believe FW is already on the clock (imho of course).  I see current 3D printing as the same stage as PCs once were in the late eighties, early nineties; an expensive and niche item, desirable but expensive and (considered) complicated.  Once 3D printer tech makes that leap, similar to what PCs did, it will slowly put third party producers out of business and start making dents in GWS revenue stream.  The question is how quickly the tech takes to mature.

[Bung]

2 hours ago, Felix Antipodes said:

FW lasted as long as it did as a top dog resin caster because it offered models that GW itself wouldn’t put out and because they offered better quality prints than their third party rivals.  Neither of these things are now true.  Their range is visibly shrinking by the week and the third party companies are producing models and bits equal to, if not better, than FW itself.

3D printers are not yet at the stage where they threaten GW itself, although I believe FW is already on the clock (imho of course).  I see current 3D printing as the same stage as PCs once were in the late eighties, early nineties; an expensive and niche item, desirable but expensive and (considered) complicated.  Once 3D printer tech makes that leap, similar to what PCs did, it will slowly put third party producers out of business and start making dents in GWS revenue stream.  The question is how quickly the tech takes to mature.

 

We are at the stage that they arent expensive anymore.

You can get one for under 200€ that will work for bits and models up to Rhino size in a decent time.

 

We are at the stage going from MS Dos to Windows user Interface compared to PC development.

Even most STL Files you can buy come pre supported so you need less knowledge.

 

The actual biggest problem is the Resin itself and the IPA for cleaning.

As long as you have to handle toxic materials a 3d printer will not be user friendly.

 

The biggest impact will be if there is a development of a non toxic material that replaces the Resin.

[Marshal Rohr]

3 hours ago, Felix Antipodes said:

FW lasted as long as it did as a top dog resin caster because it offered models that GW itself wouldn’t put out and because they offered better quality prints than their third party rivals.  Neither of these things are now true.  Their range is visibly shrinking by the week and the third party companies are producing models and bits equal to, if not better, than FW itself.

3D printers are not yet at the stage where they threaten GW itself, although I believe FW is already on the clock (imho of course).  I see current 3D printing as the same stage as PCs once were in the late eighties, early nineties; an expensive and niche item, desirable but expensive and (considered) complicated.  Once 3D printer tech makes that leap, similar to what PCs did, it will slowly put third party producers out of business and start making dents in GWS revenue stream.  The question is how quickly the tech takes to mature.

Except everyone was using one of a select few types of PC. 3D printing is a huge number of people with very crappy homemade PCs trying to play at the same table as people who bought real PCs and then a very very small group of people with really nice homemade Tony Stark PCs 

[Redcomet]

Privateer Press is switching to 3d printer farms for all their future minis. Honestly think it would do FW good to do this. Would cut down labor costs, would make creating the minis easier as they can be printed in larger pieces, and would probably also give better “casts”

[Bung]

30 minutes ago, Redcomet said:

Privateer Press is switching to 3d printer farms for all their future minis. Honestly think it would do FW good to do this. Would cut down labor costs, would make creating the minis easier as they can be printed in larger pieces, and would probably also give better “casts”

 

I doubt it would cut down labour cost if they want to do a decent quality.

It would mean running a big printer farm with at least a few people competent enough to produce a decent quality.

 

But at this time, GW / FW isnt even willing to spend enough time to print a decent master for their silicone moulds.

 

[AenarIT]

2 hours ago, Marshal Rohr said:

Except everyone was using one of a select few types of PC. 3D printing is a huge number of people with very crappy homemade PCs trying to play at the same table as people who bought real PCs and then a very very small group of people with really nice homemade Tony Stark PCs 

But right now you can get better detail with 3D printed resin compared to modern day GW plastic. 
I apologize for the non-40K related miniature in the pic below, but that's what I have on my desk now as I'm building a High Elf warband for Mordheim:

 

The model has been primed and basecoated with an airbrush, so some detail is lost compared to the marine on the right which is still bare plastic.

Printed with a €199 printer (Anycubic Mono 4K) and good resin (€45 per liter). 

3D printing is not for everyone as it requires time and effort to get it right, it's messy and must be done in a well ventilated room. 
But it's not incredibly expensive nor inaccessible, if one is willing to give it a try.

 

Edited July 7, 2023 by AenarIT

[Grotsmasha]

15 minutes ago, AenarIT said:

But right now you can get better detail with 3D printed resin compared to modern day GW plastic. 

 

Better? Nope. Comparable at best.

 

That's a REALLY clean print, but you should be comparing that model to what it is proxying, a model with the same complex detail, not a plain-jane Reiver.

 

Don't get me wrong, I love my printer (Mono not X),  and am super satisfied with the results I get, and am an advocate for people to try 3d printing with the hobby, and I hope GW embrace it at some stage.

[Aarik]

Anecdotally, I've seen 3D printing have the most effect on FW stuff and specialist games.  It's becoming pretty common to see Heresy armies online making heavy use of 3D printed parts, and I think that it fits particularly well with the more modeling/customization focus that the Heresy community seems to have.  

 

And in particular, I think the rise of 3D modeling and printing has done a good job of (1) highlighting segments of the market that GW is not fulfilling, and (2) showing that it's really not that hard to replicate the level of 3D sculpting that GW does -- at least for marines.  With respect to the first point, there seems to be high demand for more proportionally-scaled Heresy marines (i.e., Mk. II-V that match the Mk. VI/CSM scale, terminators that are proportionally larger, etc.) and legion-specific units and upgrades, which GW/FW have been very slow to put  out themselves.  I'm at the point in my life where I can afford to buy whatever plastic kits that I want at the rate I can paint them, and I think GW by and large does a great job with their plastic kits.  So, I'm more than happy to buy as many Mk. VI kits as I need, but I want proportionally larger Cataphractii, etc. so I turn to the 3D printed and third-party market for those rather than buying the undersized (to me) plastic kits.  Or why wait years and years for GW to eventually re-scale Mks. III and IV, and produce Mks. II and V, when I could get the same 3D printed now?  The same is true for upgrades like arms, weapons, shoulderpads, etc.  FW has been slow to produce these upgrades, I think the price is insane for them, and they often still have 3D print lines from the masters on them anyway.  So why would I wait months and months for the despoiler arm upgrades, for example, only to have to pay through the nose for them, when I could get some 3D printed at the same quality faster and cheaper.  Or even simply just buy cool, alternative bits to sprinkle into my army, get some of the numerous legion-specific alternative Contemptor or Leviathan dreadnought designs floating around, or true scale versions of legion-specific units like SOH Reavers, etc.

 

And that leads to the second point.  There are a number of creators who are putting out designs that are on par or almost on par (largely just tiny differences in proportions that are really only noticeable if you're looking closely and super familiar with the original models) with what GW and FW produce.  Those creators are certainly not the majority, but we are relatively early still in the 3D printing life cycle, and I think the quality will only improve across the board.  And these creators are putting out GW/FW-equivalent models at a blistering pace compared to GW and FW themselves.  Obviously, producing plastic kits takes more work because GW has to cut the digital models into individual pieces to go on the sprues, and do so in a way that maximizes ease of assembly and minimizes mold lines -- which I think GW has done a great job of.  But I think it goes to show that the initial 3D modeling itself is well within the province of normal folks.  The GW standard is far from unobtainable.  And that is what I think will really impact GW in the long run.  Until now, GW had a decent monopoly on the ability to design quality models at a large scale, but I think 3D modeling and printing has broken that monopoly.  We're not yet at an inflection point, but I think it's coming in the next 5-ish years.  Printing technology has rapidly developed even in the last year or two, and affordable printers can produce models with 95-100% quality of the plastic kits.   And it will only get easier and cheaper.  I don't think it will put GW out of business or anything because there's still a much higher barrier to entry than just buying plastic kits and the market for them will always be there, but I think it will make a pretty big dent around the margins for FW/resin stuff that's targeted towards "more advanced" hobbyists.  Those hobbyists are precisely the segment that is more likely to overcome the 3D printing barrier to entry, and the third-party market can move much more quickly and cheaply to fill the gaps that GW is not.

 

So, in short, I think that 3D printing has exploded the options that modelers have, some of those options are outcompeting GW and FW, and I think they will continue to do so simply because the demand for more specific bits and kits is simply beyond GW/FW's ability to supply at the necessary scale.  It's just not practical for them to sell the wide variety of bits and upgrades that are available from the third-party market.

 

And so that people who aren't into 3D printing at all can have some context, I found a lovely gentleman online who prints stuff for me and charges $0.50/bit with a $2.50 charge to support/rescale files.  So for full "kits" with numerous different bits that need to be supported or resized, the upfront cost can exceed what an equivalent plastic kit would cost, but then printing more afterwards is a relatively trivial cost.  And even if I end up paying a bit more up front, I'm happy to pay the marginal difference to get exactly what I want (e.g., correctly proportioned marines).  And for bits where I'll but multiples of the same one, like shoulderpads or helmets, I can get 10 shoulderpads for $5 (or $7.50 if you include the initial $2.50 charge) versus paying $25 for the same from FW.  

[Shield-Captain]

If you have a 3D printer, I think 3D printing is cool and a great way to enjoy the hobby. As someone who bought some STL files and thought “well there’s farms out there who will prim them off for me” you can imagine my surprise when it was $300+ for a single GW sized building. I get that’s anecdotal but it was my experience. 
 

I also just simply don’t have the space and resources to buy a 3d printer. And I’m not comfortable handling toxic materials. I’ll stick with GW doing the legwork for me. 

[Orion]

13 hours ago, Grotsmasha said:

 

Better? Nope. Comparable at best.

 

That's a REALLY clean print, but you should be comparing that model to what it is proxying, a model with the same complex detail, not a plain-jane Reiver.

 

Don't get me wrong, I love my printer (Mono not X),  and am super satisfied with the results I get, and am an advocate for people to try 3d printing with the hobby, and I hope GW embrace it at some stage.

 

Given that plastic can't do undercuts you could get more complex models without a million parts.

They definitely have potential to be more detailed than plastic.

 

(and I've been nothing but critical of 3D prints up to this point in the thread, haha)

[Bung]

16 hours ago, Aarik said:

Anecdotally, I've seen 3D printing have the most effect on FW stuff and specialist games.  It's becoming pretty common to see Heresy armies online making heavy use of 3D printed parts, and I think that it fits particularly well with the more modeling/customization focus that the Heresy community seems to have.  

 

 

Heresy has been on life support for years before the release of the new Edition.

Years Heresy didnt even get a FaQ.

Even some models varnished.

 

With not much support from GW / FW most Heresy players had to go third party etc. and if you are already there, then there isnt much holding you back with 3d printing.

 

If GW laments people printing their own stuff, then they themself are Part of the reason die to lack of support.

 

[sarabando]

On 7/7/2023 at 9:53 PM, Shield-Captain said:

If you have a 3D printer, I think 3D printing is cool and a great way to enjoy the hobby. As someone who bought some STL files and thought “well there’s farms out there who will prim them off for me” you can imagine my surprise when it was $300+ for a single GW sized building. I get that’s anecdotal but it was my experience. 
 

I also just simply don’t have the space and resources to buy a 3d printer. And I’m not comfortable handling toxic materials. I’ll stick with GW doing the legwork for me. 

there is a issue with cost, as some printers will charge you far more than what GW would for the same minis, they value their hourly rate much higher. This is most prevalent imo in smaller "garage" printers who are trying to make it their job, and not in bigger "professional" groups.

Its all down to finding the right people to do it. I wanted some mkII land raider sponsons doing and my nearest printer wanted the cost of a land raider for each set, which imo was insane. I was VERY lucky that a friend was closing up his print business and did them at cost for me (about a tenner) 

 

 

Printing did something that GW doesnt like to do which is cater to customer needs, for example if i want just swords all the same style its pretty hard to get enough for a squad from GW/FW but takes an hour and i can have 100 made for literally the cost of a pint. 

[Doghouse]

One interesting development in this area is Turbosquid just announced text to AI 3D modelling. It's going to be pretty rough at first I would imagine but I expect to see an explosion of stls available online in the not too distant future. Whether they are decent quality or not is another matter.

 

I can honestly see Battle Fleet Gothic players taking advantage of this.

Edited July 15, 2023 by Doghouse

[NovemberIX]

For a bit of perspective, a buddy of mine who couldn't get a hold of Leviathan instead decided to buy a Mono X 6Ks. His logic is there is price parity, pre-supported STL's look good enough, and we'll only be playing at my place anyway, so why not. Which then leads to now also considering playing AI and Battlefleet with our own models as well.

 

I'm at the point in my hobby life where I want stuff that doesn't look stock, or want something completely custom. A point that a lot of my gaming cohort is also in. All but one of us has a 3d printer, we've all bought and used custom printed bits, and again, we're not playing in a store, so our novelty is guilt free.

[sarabando]

3 hours ago, Doghouse said:

One interesting development in this area is Turbosquid just announced text to AI 3D modelling. It's going to be pretty rough at first I would imagine but I expect to see an explosion of stls available online in the not too distant future. Whether they are decent quality or not is another matter.

 

I can honestly see Battle Fleet Gothic players taking advantage of this.

oh God i hadnt even thought of this, "create me a warhammer 40k science fiction power axe in the style of a two handed danesaxe" *poof* and print