Guard & FW Index 10th Edition - Jarms' Quick Fix Adjustments

[jarms48]

Meta Monday is out and we're sitting at 35% with the index. The only tournament we've won so far is the Aussie one with artillery spam and that's an outlier due to how our meta works (I'm Australian). 

 

Like in 8th and 9th edition I've done up a google document with point and datasheet adjustments to play around with. Here's the link:

 

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1vEZalecZ6Bo7ouYO-adJOswmn6qXqTA_FXLkDi9GMkM/edit?usp=sharing

 

Main takeaways:

- Point drops for all tanks. Many of them are simply overcosted to be competitive. 

- Point increases to nearly all indirect fire. Except HWS, FOB, Deathstrike, and Wyvern.

- Added heavy to every tanks "main weapon". Seems strange that all of our artillery gets heavy on their main weapons and our tanks don't. It's also not as powerful as turret weapon as it's an all or nothing rule that's lost if moving, and you need to move to secure objectives or get line-of-sight. 

- Lord Solar Leontus, Commissars, Preachers, and Primaris Psykers can now join Ogryns/Bullgryns. Commissars can also use their limited pool of orders on Ogryns/Bullgryns. This is to increase synergy and open up more strategies. For example, the 4++ shield on Bullgryns won't always be the default choice if you attach a Primaris Psyker. 

- I fixed up missing keywords, missing wargear options, and other errata/FAQ issues. 

- Changed Vanquisher Cannons to be in-line with Tau Railguns so they're not as terrible. 

- Changed Tank Commanders to be 20 Points + Vehicle. They can now choose between Carnodon, Hellhound, Leman Russ, Malcador, Rogal Dorn, Macharius, or Baneblade (they still can't order Baneblades though).

- Tempestor Primes now give Scions OC2 as well as Battleline if Warlord. Which matches other Battleline units. 

 

I might still need to play around with the point costs but the rest of it I think is fine.  

Edited July 3, 2023 by jarms48

[Emperor Ming]

Well guard had a low winrate for ages and the only thing that made a difference was the turret rule and order splash

 

Those need to come back asap

[Emperor Ming]

Commissars need access to more orders or be cheaper, or both

 

[Tokugawa]

Someone reported that the 5-0 player used Creed ability on destroyed units, which should be incorrect application. 

[jarms48]

2 hours ago, Tokugawa said:

Someone reported that the 5-0 player used Creed ability on destroyed units, which should be incorrect application. 

 

Completely agree that seems to have been a strange decision of that TO. Even from the way the ability and stratagem is worded suggest this is impossible. I might do a true FAQ section with basic questions and answers to give insight. 

 

  

3 hours ago, Emperor Ming said:

Commissars need access to more orders or be cheaper, or both

 

Personally I think Commissars are fine, the problem is battleshock not being a massive worry compared to how much GW hyped it up. It's largely forgettable especially for Guard. Platoon Commanders still allow stratagems when battleshocked, standard banners still give +1 OC even when battleshocked. So we basically ignore it. That's why I expanded their leader ability to include Ogryns and Bullgryns, because they have no way to mitigate battleshock and will benefit from those 2 orders. It's also very thematic as Commissar attaches are incredibly common with Ogryns. 

Edited July 4, 2023 by jarms48

[jarms48]

Adjusted for index 1.2 and added a small FAQ section

[Sergeant Bastone]

On 7/3/2023 at 9:54 PM, jarms48 said:

Personally I think Commissars are fine, the problem is battleshock not being a massive worry compared to how much GW hyped it up. It's largely forgettable especially for Guard. Platoon Commanders still allow stratagems when battleshocked, standard banners still give +1 OC even when battleshocked. So we basically ignore it. That's why I expanded their leader ability to include Ogryns and Bullgryns, because they have no way to mitigate battleshock and will benefit from those 2 orders. It's also very thematic as Commissar attaches are incredibly common with Ogryns. 

How does that add up to commissars being fine tho?  Since battleshock has ended up being the least impactful that morale has ever been, basically a commissar seems like 35 points for a BS3 plasma pistol and power sword.  Summary execution seems like it would rarely be useful (and no way i'd execute a bullgryn for battleshock reasons) so i think they need to be super cheap to bother bringing. 

[jarms48]

I’m saying they’re fine in relation to my changes. Their orders are a massive boon to Ogryns/Bullgryns. You’re either giving them +1 WS, or +1 Ld and +1 OC.
 

So now they’re either hitting on 2+ in combat, or are relatively tanky with OC2 and Ld 5+ (from the Commissar getting the +1 Ld). 

Edited July 6, 2023 by jarms48

[Trickstick]

I like a lot of what you have done, although I don't agree with everything. I'll put some of my thoughts down, although I may get a bit rambling:

 

I feel that handing out heavy to all of the russ main guns will encourage stationary play too much. Maybe just for the longer barrel versions, such as the battlecannon, but I don't think a demolisher should have heavy. I would rather have some sort of vehicle order availability buff instead. For the superheavies, I can see some of the longer range fixed barrel versions getting heavy, such as the banesword, stormblade, and macharius.

 

I like the idea of a Tank Commander being an upgrade. Having Hellhounds in the list seems a bit odd to me, but that is just personal preference I guess.

 

I love the idea of lone operative Ratlings.

 

I really like the niche that your Eradicator change would create. Having a Russ that can strip cover would be nice. 18" is harder for a Russ to get than a Hellhound, but I suppose it is a cost you have to pay for a powerful rule.

 

I do disagree with two of your suggested FAQs though. I will preface this by saying I understand that these are very ambiguously worded in the rules, and the ruling could go either way. However, I would have ruled the other way from you on both the Leontus CP and Creed + reinforcements questions.

 

Leontus + CP, I feel there are enough examples of CP gain "at the start of your command phase" to make this not included in the limit to CP gain outside of the start of the command phase. You have rules from armies like Votann, which have an explicit exception, and Knights, who have a rule giving 3CP that would only give you 1CP with your interpretation of the CP cap.

 

Creed + reinforcements is a trickier question, and I admit it may be disallowed only for balance reasons. However, it can be read that there is a step between "destroyed" and "removed", and that reinforcements could be used in this timeframe to allow it to be within 12" of Creed. Rules like deadly demise act in this time gap, as they are destroyed but still need to measure distances for their effects.

 

I agree with both other FAQs though.

 

Finally, I don't feel qualified to talk too much on the points costs. Every time I try to think of changes, I worry that I am getting too much into biased wishlisting. So I will leave that to others. I agree that Russes are quite high though, it is very hard to justify taking them in any numbers.

 

I found your work interesting though, good job.

[Diagramdude]

Using Creed for Reinforcement shouldn’t be as confusing as people think and IMO it’s legal. When a unit loses its last wound, it is destroyed THEN removed. There are a lot of rules that occur when you are destroyed but before you are removed. Deadly Demise is the most obvious example. If you couldn’t measure from a destroyed vehicle you could never inflict mortal wounds from the explosion.
 

Since the timing of Reinforcements is when your unit was “just destroyed” it has not been removed yet and you could have creed within 12” inches.

the wording of the imperial knights fight on death stratagem also cements the difference between the destroyed step and the removal step.

[domsto]

Looks good overall.

With the suggested points decrease and the heavy keyword added our Tanks might become usefull again.

I would also rebalance a few of our Weapons.

The Vanquisher is a good start, but not the only Gun in need of a Statsbuff, give the Battlecannon Ap-2 for Emperor's sake

But i would also suggest to give the Tank Commander two Orders. As out of my experiance from my 10.Ed games is that Tank Orders are very limited and hard to get. The only real Option for Tank Orders is our Age of Sigmar wannabe Leontus, as the Tank Commander in it's current state is not valid at all.

[Sergeant Bastone]

The multilaser needs something to be usable.

 

I've often thought that making it Rapid Fire would make it more useful.  

 

An outside the box idea is to make it Assault.  This seems like it would be most useful on the chimera and maybe makes it as good as the Heavy Bolter?

 

A simple solution is to use the separate weapon BS and just make it BS 3, reasoning that it doesn't have recoil.