How to destroy Armor at Range with GK

[OverchargeThis!]

Our index is a bit sparse. Dedicated anti-armor is inefficient points-wise namely due to dual-use units.

 

Razorbacks and Land Raider have to pay for transport capacity in addition to their las cannon armaments.

 

Dreadnoughts have to pay for the close-combat capability, and the missile launcher arm to replace the close combat weaponry isn't good for the points.

 

Seems like we have to opt for mortal wound delivery, so three librarians in this role become essential.

 

Four servitors with a pair of multi-meltas in the squad can deepstrike if attached to a Brother Techmarine. This is an option, but not a very good one. 135 points for a unit that is largely situational. I think I'd prefer to use servitors in teh back field, arming them with plasma cannons. If stationary when firing, they can hit on 3+. This is pretty good and cost-efficient, but is not an anti-armor solution.

Lastly, the Imperial Knight Armiger Warglaive is very points-efficient at 140 points each. If we were to take three, that would be 420 points. First page of the Imperial Knights Index says we can take Freeblades. Either a single Knight or 3 Armigers. I'm going to suggest this as the first choice. The Warglaive's primary armament is a 'Thermal Spear', which is A2, S12, AP -4 Damage D5 with MELTA 4. It has secondary Meltagun and Heavy Stubber. It's fast and has a very effective melee attack.

 

Given the sparse choices for anti-tank, Armigers are looking very good. What are your thoughts?

 

NOTE: My first time posting here in about 13 years. Hello everyone! I'm back into 40K first time since 5th edition.

[WAR]

Welcome back to the B&C @NeoIsolationist and Welcome to the Halls of Titan. 

 

Last few editions Dreadnoughts were our go to for Anti Tank at range. My one game I ran to 2 lascannon Razorbacks against my friends Killer Kan list.  I did lose both of them by turn 3. Armigers seem the right direction to go, but I'm gonna try land raiders a go

[OverchargeThis!]

Land raiders should be very effective but again points-inefficient. They’ve been very good on the table top when I’ve used them, but usually in th form of an assault squad delivery unit.

 

too bad we can’t take predators. 

 

of course knowing gw they probably did this intentionally to get us to branch into imperial knights. 
 

I had a very large daemon hunters army back in third edition. I opted for imperial guard Allies. By fifth edition it became about 10000 points worth of guard. Still have them too. Way to go GW. =) Daemon hunters were also anti-armor deficient…

 

 

[Valerian]

In my limited view, the best solution for enemy armor is simply to ignore it.  As long as their vehicles aren't stopping you from achieving primary and/or secondary missions, it can be ignored.  

[Orion]

2 hours ago, NeoIsolationist said:

Land raiders should be very effective but again points-inefficient. They’ve been very good on the table top when I’ve used them, but usually in th form of an assault squad delivery unit.

 

too bad we can’t take predators. 

 

of course knowing gw they probably did this intentionally to get us to branch into imperial knights. 
 

I had a very large daemon hunters army back in third edition. I opted for imperial guard Allies. By fifth edition it became about 10000 points worth of guard. Still have them too. Way to go GW. =) Daemon hunters were also anti-armor deficient…

 

 

 

I loved the dynamic in the old Daemon Hunters codex. At least from the cool-factor.

Trying to remember. What was the go-to Space Marine AA back then? Predator Annihilators? Lascannon Devastators?

[OverchargeThis!]

3 hours ago, JayJapanB said:

 

I loved the dynamic in the old Daemon Hunters codex. At least from the cool-factor.

Trying to remember. What was the go-to Space Marine AA back then? Predator Annihilators? Lascannon Devastators?

Digging deep here to try to remember....

 

I think you could take 0-1 HQ, 0-2 Troops, 0-1 Elite, 0-1 Fast, and 0-1 Heavy. I think you needed to take at least one HQ and one Troops choice before you opened the other options. As far as what could be taken, I think any entry in the SM codex could be selected.

 

[OverchargeThis!]

4 hours ago, Valerian said:

In my limited view, the best solution for enemy armor is simply to ignore it.  As long as their vehicles aren't stopping you from achieving primary and/or secondary missions, it can be ignored.  

I read your post on this very subject. Very solid analysis. A few highly mechanized armies could cause a lot of problems for such a strategy.

[Orion]

10 minutes ago, NeoIsolationist said:

Digging deep here to try to remember....

 

I think you could take 0-1 HQ, 0-2 Troops, 0-1 Elite, 0-1 Fast, and 0-1 Heavy. I think you needed to take at least one HQ and one Troops choice before you opened the other options. As far as what could be taken, I think any entry in the SM codex could be selected.

 

 

Sorry I was just thinking for Space Marines in general. Not inducted ones.

I feel like the whole landscape was different back then when Lascannons were the tank cracker. Have No Predators and having Purgation Squads instead of Devs starts to shrink that.

 

But yeah, that all sounds about right on force org slots. Good memory.

Another thing I remember is that Grey Knights could join a Marine army, but Marines couldn't join a Daemon Hunter army with Grey Knights. I get what they were going for, but a bit of a weird distinction.

[Marshall Bretton]

Are heavy psycannons on dreadknights not a viable option?

 

I know they are S10 as opposed to s12 and have a lower ap and D, but they also get 6 shots as opposed to 1.

 

The utility of a dreadknight seems greater to me as well given dreadnoughts don't have the mobility options and LR obviously doesn't have melee attacks.

 

I haven't actually played in years so I'm not really that good at knowing what is good and what isn't.

[OverchargeThis!]

1 hour ago, Gaius Maximus said:

Are heavy psycannons on dreadknights not a viable option?

 

I know they are S10 as opposed to s12 and have a lower ap and D, but they also get 6 shots as opposed to 1.

 

The utility of a dreadknight seems greater to me as well given dreadnoughts don't have the mobility options and LR obviously doesn't have melee attacks.

 

I haven't actually played in years so I'm not really that good at knowing what is good and what isn't.

I think the primary criticism is the low AP value. They are AP-1.

[Corvus Fortis]

11 hours ago, Gaius Maximus said:

Are heavy psycannons on dreadknights not a viable option?

 

I know they are S10 as opposed to s12 and have a lower ap and D, but they also get 6 shots as opposed to 1.

 

The utility of a dreadknight seems greater to me as well given dreadnoughts don't have the mobility options and LR obviously doesn't have melee attacks.

 

I haven't actually played in years so I'm not really that good at knowing what is good and what isn't.

Against stuff like Leman Russ it is barely going scratch up paint. Against 3+ vehicles it will be random - 4+ is 4+. 3-6 wound is the best you can expect in single volley against lighter vehicles. 

[Helias_Tancred]

On 7/6/2023 at 6:03 PM, NeoIsolationist said:

 

 

... of course knowing gw they probably did this intentionally to get us to branch into imperial knights. 
 

 

 Truth! lol ..... 

 

[Orion]

I'd take a Castigator over two Dreadknights any day.

They fit well with GKs aesthetically. Double barrelled arm gun with ammo belt. Sword. Knight themed armour.

Edited July 8, 2023 by JayJapanB

[OverchargeThis!]

Here's a draft list that is still 140 points over, so I have to pare it down a bit. I might drop a librarian and change the paladins to regular brother terminators. But we'll see. For now, here's a 2140 point draft list that will eventually be a 2000 list:

 

DRAFT

2 Librarians (220)

1 Kaldor Draigo (155)

3 Armiger Warglaives (420)

1 Brother Techmarine (85)

5 Paladins (2 Incinerators) (255)

2 Servitor Squads (2 Plasma Cannons Each) (100)

1 Servitor Squad (2 Multi-Meltas) (50)

 

1 Strike (Justicar, 3 Troopers, 1 Psycannon) (135)

2 Interceptors (Justicar, 7 Troopers, 2 Psycannons) (640)

2 Voidsmen-at-Arms (1 Voidsmaster, 3 Voidsmen, 1 Voidsman with Rotor Cannon) (80)

 

Grand Total 2140

 

The voidsmen and plasma cannon servitors will sit in the back field, hold point, and project fire cautiously. Shooty servitors are mid-to-end game units that excel with low board density. So they might not do much the first few turns unless i can get a few opportunistic shots in.

 

The brother techmarine will attach to the multi-melta servitor squad and follow the warglaives up providing repair and fire support. The combined techmarine/servitor unit can also deepstrike. Which is interesting.

 

Draigo will be with the paladins looking for a solid assault on the drop. He will try to coordinate with the amigers which may push forward depending on what is going on.

 

Ideally, if I could keep both libarians, 1 would attach to the strike squad, the other to an interceptor squad. The libarian/strike squad is small enough to find a flank with cover to land a vortex of doom on thedrop and push something off an objective in the following turn. The interceptors/librarian squad will cause as much problems as possible, screening for the armigers or landing supporting assaults for Kaldor/paladins. The second of the two interceptor squads might have incinerators instead.

 

I have observed the psycannons work well if they are used en masse. I have few, and thus will focus on mobility and landing crippling assaults where possible.

 

Comments please. I'm now just getting back into the hobby after 13 years away. I was a competitive player from 3rd through 5th, having played Imperial Guard, Daemonhunters, and Blood Angels. This is all theoretical, but I think the list can work in most cases.

 

When I ran Daemonhunters with GK, my 2000 point list had 6 squads of inquisitorial storm troopers and an inquisitor with a retinue. I only had two squads of 10 strikers, 1 10 man purgation squad, some terminators, and a pair of dreads for fire support. Worked out very well in most cases. I say this because you may be curious as to why I have so many T3 models tooling around in the army. It's quite normal for how I played GK back then.

 

Thanks.

 

 

[Holier Than Thou]

Librarians can’t attach to Strikes or Interceptors (nothing can attach to Interceptors), they can only join Paladins or Terminators.

[OverchargeThis!]

6 hours ago, Holier Than Thou said:

Librarians can’t attach to Strikes or Interceptors (nothing can attach to Interceptors), they can only join Paladins or Terminators.

OK. Thanks. Too bad.

 

Edit: I need those Librarians for supplemental anti-armor firepower. I don't want to drop to just one, so I have to think up some way to join them to another squad. I don't want to overdo it on Terminators. They don't do too much more offensively than regular power-armored GK. I definitely agree with Valerian on the use of power-armor GK over terminators, despite taking several in my list.

Edited July 8, 2023 by NeoIsolationist

[OverchargeThis!]

With the balance data slate being released, I've come up with a 620-point high AP, high strength, long-range firebase concept for Grey Knights.

 

What's notable is the number of models that can be put down and the buffs and synergies they all provide. Here are the units:

 

3 Razorbacks with twin-linked las cannons

1 venerable dreadnought with twin-linked las cannon and missile launcher

1 brother techmarine

3 munitorum servitor squads with dual plasma cannons

 

synergies:

1. anything close to the dreadnought gets to re-roll ones to-hit and to-wound

2. the transported squad in each razorback gets to re-roll to-wound rolls if they target whatever the razorback shot

3. stationary sentinels hit with their heavy weapons on 3+

4. The techmarine can attach to a servitor squad. He gives the unit +1 to-hit.

 

The servitors can do chip damage against whatever their razorback transport shot at. Overcharging the plasma shot is of minimal risk if they are close to the dreadnought due to re-rolls of one to-hit.

 

I might opt not to use the missile launcher on the dreadnought and retain the close combat arm instead so it could counter-charge along with the tech marine anything that gets close.

 

So what we end up with are four twin-linked las cannons, six plasma cannons, and (possibly) a missile launcher). All for 620.

 

85-point razorbacks made me think twice about our long-range firepower options. Overall, in a 2000-point list, this represents about 30 percent of the total points so I'm going to suggest it's quite points efficient. Fluff-wise I think it's interesting that the tech marine rolled up with a bunch of transports loaded with servitors to provide fire support.

Edited September 7, 2023 by NeoIsolationist

[OverchargeThis!]

My above suggestion looks like it can work and has the benefit of plasma cannon-armed servitors that can also go after heavy infantry very effectively.

 

But it also looks like I can spend about the same points doing the following, and get the same number of las cannons to the fight whilst having more durability:

 

2 Land Raiders

1 Brother Tech Marine

2 Servitor Squads (2 PC)

 

This adds up to 640. The only issue is the redundancy of transport capacity on the Land Raiders.

 

What we need are either Predator Annihilators or Centurion Devastators. 3 Annihilators with Las sponsons would add up to about 400. A couple squads of three Centurion Devastators with Las and Missile would be about 350. Either of these options, keeping the plasma cannon servitors in the mix for long-range low-AP supplemental firepower, would put GK near the top of the pack.

 

I'll have to play test both, although I am quite sold on the idea of the servitors. GK absolutely miss the mark when it comes to low-AP mid-range firepower.

 

One last thing:

 

If a Brother Techmarine leads a squad, he can also attach as servitor squad to it and the whole unit can still teleport. A strike squad with these attached would be very interesting, and useful.

 

Edited September 9, 2023 by OverchargeThis!

[Wind Whistler]

Here’s a silly idea I threw together as an example of what you could get by going all in on land raiders while also taking full advantage of their transport capacity:

 

3 Land Raiders

3 ten man Strike Squads led by Brotherhood Champions 

1 five man Strike Squad to stick your home objective

1 Venerable Dreadnought

Edited September 20, 2023 by Wind Whistler

[librisrouge]

12 hours ago, Wind Whistler said:

Here’s a silly idea I threw together as an example of what you could get by going all in on land raiders while also taking full advantage of their transport capacity:

 

3 Land Raiders

3 ten man Strike Squads led by Brotherhood Champions 

1 five man Strike Squad to stick your home objective

1 Venerable Dreadnought

The problem with lists like this isn't that they're bad. They have a lot going for them actually. However, Space Marines can do the same thing but better in every way.

 

This list takes no advantage of being Grey Knights (faction and detachment rules), whereas a marine army with roughly the same options (swap strikes for terminators or bladeguard) will have Oath of the Moment, Doctrines, and better character support. Plus, better options for that dreadnought slot.

[OverchargeThis!]

I'd rather use GK codex units rather than use Warglaive allies. The 620-point anti-tank set up I provided above is weak, although tries to maximize what we have available, when compared to taking three Warglaives for about 2/3 of the points. Hate to say it, but I think that's the direction we should go. 

 

Warglaives are very fast and can also assault, so they synergize well with army.

 

Add one Librarian (at least) to do chip damage with mortal wounds to finish off damaged armor/monstrous creatures.

 

Opinions?

 

What are you guys using for anti-tank and anti-monstrous creature?

Edited September 21, 2023 by OverchargeThis!

[Nichodemus10]

This might be too far off topic, but if they just changed our Venerable dreadnought to the Ballistus Dreadnought would our problem be solved without changing our Army's look too much? When I see that the Ballistus is only a few more points than our dread it just makes me really sad.

[casb1965]

On 7/7/2023 at 10:33 PM, Corvus Fortis said:

Against stuff like Leman Russ it is barely going scratch up paint. Against 3+ vehicles it will be random - 4+ is 4+. 3-6 wound is the best you can expect in single volley against lighter vehicles. 

 

Now they've moved to S10, AP -2, D3 do you think the Heavy Psycannon has become more useful.

[librisrouge]

4 hours ago, casb1965 said:

 

Now they've moved to S10, AP -2, D3 do you think the Heavy Psycannon has become more useful.

"More useful"? Yes. Absolutely. Still, think about it this way. The average vehicles is going to need, what, four shots make it through, thanks to D3? The average vehicles is rocking a 3+ save too, so they'll get a +5 save. You'll probably need a 5+ to wound them as well. So you're looking at 3s to hit, 5s to wound, 5s to save, and then 3 damage. My rough and slapdashed math says that the average dreadknight is going 2 2/3rds wounds to most vehicles. Far from the best odds and it is being delivered by a fairly expensive and soft chasis.