Gaining more CP in the Command phase.

[ExeterOborach]

Hey everyone. So couple buddies ( Orks vs Custodes) are playing a game using the Tactical Missions deck. The rules say if you discard any cards at the end of your turn you gain 1 CP. 

The BRB say you can't gain more than 1 CP "outside of the CP you gain at the beginning of the Command phase". But the Ork player's Gretchen have the Thieven Gits rule which lets them gain up to 1 CP on a 4+ if they are near an objective at the BEGINNING OF THE COMMAND PHASE. 

The question is; since it's gaining in the beginning of the command phase, can the ork player technically gain 2 CP in the Command phase and then 1 at the of the turn? 

The arguement is that the BRB doesn't say 'the ONE CP at the start of the command phase'. So RAW, as long as CP are gained at the beginning of the Command phase, it won't count towards the maximum 1 other CP potentially gained during the rest of the turn. 

The Custodes player's rebuttal was that at the end of 9th players could never gain more than max 2 CP (command phase and other special rules) per turn thus RAI now is no different and they're just arguing semantics.

What do you think? Thanks.

[Rogue]

I think any argument that relies on "It was like that in 9th" is weak. This is a different rule-set, and being similar to something that existed before doesn't equate to "Supposed to be the same".

 

The rule in the core rules says: "Outside of the CP players gain at the start of the command phase, each player can only gain a total of 1CP per battle round, regardless of the source".

 

Looking around, references to CP generally come with an attached number - 1CP, 0CP, that sort of thing (we even see it in the rule under discussion). So when the rule says "CP" with no attached number, it implies an unknown value. In other words, it could be one or more.

 

If the wording of the unit rule says "At the start of the command phase..." (as it does with neophytes, for example), that aligns with the condition presented in the rule, exempting that CP from the 1CP per battle round cap.

 

My suggestion is that the wording supports the gain of a variable number of CP at rhe start of the command phase, followed by the possible gain of 1 more CP during the remainder of the battle round.

 

[This means I could gain 1CP in your command phase, 2CP in my command phase (one by default, one via my neophytes (or gretchin, or whatever)), and 1CP during the battle round (via Inscrutable Cunning, for example), giving me 4CP in total over the battle round.]

[Dr_Ruminahui]

I differ with Rogue, in that I don't believe the wording supports one interpretation over the over - grammatically, "the CP" as used in the rule could be plural or singular.

 

Given the genuine ambiguity of the language, how GW has done so in the past is more persuasive than such an argument would be otherwise.  My own gut feeling is that given how GW has sought to limit CP gain, that "the CP" is likely meant to be singular, but this is one of the situations where I like it is legitimately a coin toss over what the rule is actually meant to be.

[Rogue]

Yeah, I think that's a reasonable interpretation too. I definitely don't want to get into a "rules as intended" argument, but... if the rules-writers wanted to limit this to 1CP in the command phase and maybe 1CP extra during the round, they could have started the rule with "Outside of the 1CP players gain...", which would be pretty clear.

 

The thing that swung it for me was the "At the start of the command phase" bit, which marries up with the "At the start of your command phase" wording of the neophyte CP rule. 

 

If we're very literal, then CP received at the start of the command phase aren't counted towards the 1CP per round limit, and both the free CP and the neophyte CP happen at the start of the command phase.

 

But yeah, we could read "the CP" as singular without any kind of contortion or rules-lawyering, so that works too, frustratingly.

 

Edited July 10, 2023 by Rogue
Tweaking

[ExeterOborach]

Wow. Both are great, concise points. Thanks for the input. 

Personally I'm leaning towards being able to generate multiple CP in the Command phase mostly because now in 10th players start with zero CP and we need more ways to generate them.  

We're meeting up to play again so any input on the matter would be helpful and appreciated. 

[Xenith]

"CP" is defined on page 11 of the rulebook as "Command Point", singular. I understand, but don't think the book supports the argument that there's enough ambiguity in the wording to say 'CP' could mean multiple. 

 

This definitely needs to be put in an email to GW, as the tempest missions seem to neuter units abilities to generate CP - I'm thinking big bosses like the swarmlord who give you 1 free CP per turn. 

[Dr_Ruminahui]

19 hours ago, Rogue said:

Yeah, I think that's a reasonable interpretation too. I definitely don't want to get into a "rules as intended" argument, but... if the rules-writers wanted to limit this to 1CP in the command phase and maybe 1CP extra during the round, they could have started the rule with "Outside of the 1CP players gain...", which would be pretty clear.

 

The problem with this kind of "... but they could have worded it "x"" type argument is that in genuinely ambiguous situations it cuts both ways.  The argument can be made that if GW had intended to make it plural, they could have said "any CP" rather than "the CP".

 

Which basically puts us back at the first instance, thinking that GW, whatever its intention, could have made it lot clearer.

[Rogue]

2 hours ago, Xenith said:

"CP" is defined on page 11 of the rulebook as "Command Point", singular. I understand, but don't think the book supports the argument that there's enough ambiguity in the wording to say 'CP' could mean multiple. 

 

This definitely needs to be put in an email to GW, as the tempest missions seem to neuter units abilities to generate CP - I'm thinking big bosses like the swarmlord who give you 1 free CP per turn. 

 

I feel like I'm being contrary, but that's not how I read it. 

 

"In the first [step], both players gain 1 Command point (CP) and you resolve any other Command phase rules."

 

I don't think that indicates that all occurrences of the letters CP indicate a singular CP. I think that just indicates that Command point can be abbreviated to CP.

 

Interestingly, the Command phase only has two steps, and the second is all about Battle-shock. That doesn't really align with the language used further down the panel - "At the start of the Command phase". If the start of the Command phase is step one (which is when we get the free CP), then any other Command phase rules (also step one) also occur at the start of the Command phase.

[Rogue]

This has been clarified in the World Championship FAQ - abilities that grant CPs at the start of the command phase do count as the 1CP you can gain per battle round.

 

(With my pedant hat on, I stand by my reading of the rule as presented, but GW have now made it clear what they intended, so that's the way to play it.)

[Jolemai]

Tournament FAQs - even GW ones - remain glorified houserules. Whilst it is nice to see what they are thinking, until it appears on the download section of Warhammer.com or on the 40k app, it's not official. 

 

To add, the FAQ in question says:

Quote

This document provides answers to questions received from multiple event attendees, and should be considered official for the purposes of the
Warhammer 40,000 event at the 2023 World Championships of Warhammer.

 

Edited November 2, 2023 by Jolemai
Updated!