Abaddon's size compared to Horus - is he a true clone of Horus?

[Gorgoff]

3 hours ago, Marshal Mittens said:

In the older lore wasn't Abaddon the same hight and build as Horus? 

I play since 1993 and never heared of that. 

[sarabando]

8 hours ago, Marshal Mittens said:

In the older lore wasn't Abaddon the same hight and build as Horus? 

 

I have some tortuga bay justerian termies and love  their size. 

he was at one point rumoured to be his cloned son

[Dagoth Ur]

10 hours ago, Gorgoff said:

I play since 1993 and never heared of that. 

It's ancient lore by this point and has been a point of in-universe debate since at least 3rd edition.

 

"I have uncovered rumours that Abaddon was the clone-son of the Primarch himself. A product of the earliest Primogenitor experimentation, but there is nothing to substantiate this."

 

P.21, Codex Chaos Space Marines, 3rd Edition (not the 3.5 one, the original one).

 

I'm tempted to say that the lore might even be older, but I don't have my 2nd Edition dex, nor my Index Astartes stuff at hand right now. In any case, this was always framed as an in-universe rumor, never as a fact. Its been repeated in a few codizes (I wanna say 7th edition but I can't promise it) as well as the Black Legion books. Usually the lore excerpts make mention of this being a rumor because Abby - even for a Son of Horus - looks eerily similar to Horus, and is usually described as being an absolute unit of a marine (the black legion novels do this, and I wanna say some of the Horus Heresy novels do this as well as the Night Lords trilogy, but I can't confirm the latter two).

 

 

Edited July 10, 2023 by Dagoth Ur

[Gorgoff]

6 hours ago, Dagoth Ur said:

It's ancient lore by this point and has been a point of in-universe debate since at least 3rd edition.

 

"I have uncovered rumours that Abaddon was the clone-son of the Primarch himself. A product of the earliest Primogenitor experimentation, but there is nothing to substantiate this."

 

P.21, Codex Chaos Space Marines, 3rd Edition (not the 3.5 one, the original one).

 

I'm tempted to say that the lore might even be older, but I don't have my 2nd Edition dex, nor my Index Astartes stuff at hand right now. In any case, this was always framed as an in-universe rumor, never as a fact. Its been repeated in a few codizes (I wanna say 7th edition but I can't promise it) as well as the Black Legion books. Usually the lore excerpts make mention of this being a rumor because Abby - even for a Son of Horus - looks eerily similar to Horus, and is usually described as being an absolute unit of a marine (the black legion novels do this, and I wanna say some of the Horus Heresy novels do this as well as the Night Lords trilogy, but I can't confirm the latter two).

 

 

Ah this.

Looking alike and Being as tall as Horus are two different pairs of shoes, no?

I always saw Abbadon as a son because he was now the Warmaster and all that. Same with Marneus Calgar being the 40k stand in for Gulliman, Dante being the stand in for Sanguinius etc.

That's why I think it wasn't a good idea to bring the primarchs back to 40k but that is another topic. 

 

Anyway I ordered some Indomitus for me now. Not for HH, but I liked them so much that I wanted them. Big plus is that I now can check for myself how big they are.

[Marshal Mittens]

Gorgoff, 

In Talon of Horus, Abaddon fights and kills a clone of horus, with onlookers only being able to tell them apart with superficial details, like Abaddon having Cthonian runes engraved on his teeth, and the Horus Clone not. 

 

More modern lore does have all the primarches being big as hell. 

[Dagoth Ur]

3 hours ago, Gorgoff said:

Ah this.

Looking alike and Being as tall as Horus are two different pairs of shoes, no?

I mean, that's hairsplitting if you ask me particularly when considering that the published IA article also points out that several SoH looked similar to Horus, yet it is only Abaddon that is specifically rumoured to be his son/clone (Which would imply that it isn't just looks that make them similar - and what is visually left to compare apart from looks? That's right, size and stature). But if you want something that explicitly refers to size then here you go:

 

Seeing him stripped of battleplate and pretension alike, the similarity between dead father and living son was nothing short of revelatory. I finally gave voice to a question many had considered, yet none had dared ask.

‘Are you Horus?’

His golden eyes glinted with amusement. He dragged in a slow breath through his rebreather.

‘I am Ezekyle Abaddon,’ he said through the medicae tank’s speakers.

‘That is not what I meant.’ I shook my head and gestured to him: this immense figure in the suspension tank, with slabs of muscle over muscle and a demigod-like stature that had led to this ­legend being whispered throughout the Nine Legions, a legend that would one day be whispered across the galaxy. ‘Are you Horus? Are you his clone? His… son?’

 

This is taken from from the second black legion novel - I'll get you the exact page number once I am off work but afaik it was published in 2017. Of note here is also that this is very early in Abaddon's career as chaos lord, pre-attainment of Drach'Nyen so it speaks somewhat to his pre-heresy stature as well.

 

[Gorgoff]

33 minutes ago, Dagoth Ur said:

I mean, that's hairsplitting if you ask me particularly when considering that the published IA article also points out that several SoH looked similar to Horus, yet it is only Abaddon that is specifically rumoured to be his son/clone (Which would imply that it isn't just looks that make them similar - and what is visually left to compare apart from looks? That's right, size and stature). But if you want something that explicitly refers to size then here you go:

 

Seeing him stripped of battleplate and pretension alike, the similarity between dead father and living son was nothing short of revelatory. I finally gave voice to a question many had considered, yet none had dared ask.

‘Are you Horus?’

His golden eyes glinted with amusement. He dragged in a slow breath through his rebreather.

‘I am Ezekyle Abaddon,’ he said through the medicae tank’s speakers.

‘That is not what I meant.’ I shook my head and gestured to him: this immense figure in the suspension tank, with slabs of muscle over muscle and a demigod-like stature that had led to this ­legend being whispered throughout the Nine Legions, a legend that would one day be whispered across the galaxy. ‘Are you Horus? Are you his clone? His… son?’

 

This is taken from from the second black legion novel - I'll get you the exact page number once I am off work but afaik it was published in 2017. Of note here is also that this is very early in Abaddon's career as chaos lord, pre-attainment of Drach'Nyen so it speaks somewhat to his pre-heresy stature as well.

 

When does it take place?

[Dagoth Ur]

18 hours ago, Gorgoff said:

When does it take place?

The scene in particular happens just as the nascent Black Legion breaks out of the eye for the first time prior to the first Black Crusade. While we do not have an exact date, we know that it is happening a few years before 781.m31 (the date the First Black Crusade commenced) so about ~760 years following the Horus Heresy. By this point Abaddon does not yet bear the Mark of Chaos Ascendant nor does he seem particularly invested with the gifts of Chaos.

 

I also managed to find the page number. Its pages 300-301 of ADB's Black Legion.

[Xenith]

23 hours ago, Gorgoff said:

When does it take place?

I think after Abby's fight with Sigismund, so maybe 1000 years post heresy, realspace time. 

 

From what I remember, Abby neither confirms, nor denies that rumour. 

[Gorgoff]

3 hours ago, Xenith said:

I think after Abby's fight with Sigismund, so maybe 1000 years post heresy, realspace time. 

 

From what I remember, Abby neither confirms, nor denies that rumour. 

He and/or Horus does that in one of the HH novels though.

I guess asking aomeone who nwver saw Horus if Abbadon is a Clone is kind of pointless. He is huge no doubt about that but he is no primarch which every HH novel I read so far is very clear about.

Anyway.

 

Edited July 11, 2023 by Xenith
swear dodge

[Xenith]

That's the thing, it's not in a HH novel, it's in the Warmaster Chronicles series - and that novel literally had Abbadon standing next to a cloned Horus and visible to a third party.

 

The novel though, is again unreliably narrated so could be considered Black Legion propaganda. It's still a thread open to interpretation, and has not been actually answered (and I hope never will be). 

[Cleon]

There's nothing to stop Abaddon being both a clone of Horus and not a Primarch. We know from the cloned Horus story that there was interest in cloning Horus, Abaddon could be a first attempt, genetically re-producing the 'Human' side of Horus but failing to capture the Primarch essence, something that made them not try again until (I think) Bile had another go.

[sarabando]

57 minutes ago, Cleon said:

There's nothing to stop Abaddon being both a clone of Horus and not a Primarch. We know from the cloned Horus story that there was interest in cloning Horus, Abaddon could be a first attempt, genetically re-producing the 'Human' side of Horus but failing to capture the Primarch essence, something that made them not try again until (I think) Bile had another go.

as part of the primarchs is from the warp it could be that exactly. 

 

i think the most important thing is that we need a new Abby (and loken) mini imo. 

[Agramar_The_Luna_Wolf]

Abbadon is not Horus' clone. He had a father, called Tarkeraddon (Warning: Spoilers ahead):

"Abaddon was the firstborn son of Tarkeraddon, one of the most mighty of Cthonia’s gang warlords. As he reached adulthood, his father expected him to complete a Cthonian coming of age ritual that involved executing his closest comrades. Abaddon refused and expressed his disdain for kingship, instead slaying his father and his bodyguards."

https://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Ezekyle_Abaddon

[Marshal Rohr]

The point of people in-universe thinking Abaddon is a clone of Horus is that he personally embodies so much of what made Horus the Warmaster that people seek to explain it as him actually being Horus in some way. He is the Warmaster of Chaos, he looks like Horus, he’s bigger than normal Space Marines, and he’s one of the greatest military commanders in Human History. 
 

If he is a clone or not isnt really relevant, it’s a narrative device to help readers connect the dots that this man is every bit as important and threatening as the Emperor’s favored son. 

[Astartes Consul]

3 hours ago, AGRAMAR said:

Abbadon is not Horus' clone. He had a father, called Tarkeraddon (Warning: Spoilers ahead):

"Abaddon was the firstborn son of Tarkeraddon, one of the most mighty of Cthonia’s gang warlords. As he reached adulthood, his father expected him to complete a Cthonian coming of age ritual that involved executing his closest comrades. Abaddon refused and expressed his disdain for kingship, instead slaying his father and his bodyguards."

https://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Ezekyle_Abaddon

Counterpoint to this: half or more of the Primarch’s had adopted ‘Fathers’ on their home worlds after their capsules were scattered through the warp. Abaddon having been a child on Cthonia and being raised by a Father doesn’t actually exclude him also having a direct genetic link to Horus.

[Noserenda]

Fulgrim sponsored a lot of Primarch cloning, didnt he have a pile of dead Ferrus clones at one point? 

Abbaddon having a father is easily waved away too, after all, we dont actually know the Abbaddon who left Cthonia is the same one who blazed through the Luna Wolves ranks.... Gotta love that Calgar twist :D 

Some kind of Primarch clone missing the special sauce could work, after all the Primarchs are not just biological work. Or it could be that he was just super affected by the geneseed etc and got real hench :P 

[MegaVolt87]

4 hours ago, Noserenda said:

Fulgrim sponsored a lot of Primarch cloning, didnt he have a pile of dead Ferrus clones at one point? 

Abbaddon having a father is easily waved away too, after all, we dont actually know the Abbaddon who left Cthonia is the same one who blazed through the Luna Wolves ranks.... Gotta love that Calgar twist :D 

Some kind of Primarch clone missing the special sauce could work, after all the Primarchs are not just biological work. Or it could be that he was just super affected by the geneseed etc and got real hench :P 

 

Did we ever get an answer on how many extra organs a primarch has vs a space marine ? A primaris has 2/3 primarch organs according to Cawl. Or does Cawl only have info on x3 primarch organs and not the rest ? There has to be more organs because when Horus/ Fulgrim were wounded at various points, pretty sure the Apothocaries had a "what the?" moment and had no idea what they were looking at/ need to do when they opened them up/ scans etc. 

[Marshal Rohr]

Fabius had Ferrus’ body to study. Cawl never had a body to study. 

[The Unseen]

5 hours ago, MegaVolt87 said:

 

Did we ever get an answer on how many extra organs a primarch has vs a space marine ? A primaris has 2/3 primarch organs according to Cawl. Or does Cawl only have info on x3 primarch organs and not the rest ? There has to be more organs because when Horus/ Fulgrim were wounded at various points, pretty sure the Apothocaries had a "what the?" moment and had no idea what they were looking at/ need to do when they opened them up/ scans etc. 

 

Primarch Biology is barely related to the Human norm. What Cawl did is come up with more organs derived from the Primarchs that are Astartes compatible (I don't remember exactly but I think he had data for those organs that Big E had considered/started but that didn't make it into the final product. The Astartes were always a compromise between the best possible transhuman and ease of rapid mass production, there's a couple lines about that when Astarte the gene-wright gets mentioned. Big E generally is apparently a bit of a perfectionist. But a Primarch doesn't have implanted organs, they just ARE that way.

[Xenith]

15 hours ago, AGRAMAR said:

Abbadon is not Horus' clone. He had a father, called Tarkeraddon (Warning: Spoilers ahead):

"Abaddon was the firstborn son of Tarkeraddon, one of the most mighty of Cthonia’s gang warlords. As he reached adulthood, his father expected him to complete a Cthonian coming of age ritual that involved executing his closest comrades. Abaddon refused and expressed his disdain for kingship, instead slaying his father and his bodyguards."

https://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Ezekyle_Abaddon

 

Ah well, that's dissapointing. I hate when they give mundane answers to some of the coolest mysteries in the universe. 

[Gorgoff]

11 hours ago, Astartes Consul said:

Counterpoint to this: half or more of the Primarch’s had adopted ‘Fathers’ on their home worlds 

Please feel free to read the novel in which Abbadon is talking about his childhood. It was his father and not some stepfather. Apart from this he also talkes about the clone rumor in at least one different HH novel and pointed out what nonsense that is. I guess Loken does as well and definitely Horus does.

It is not true plain and simple. 

Edited July 12, 2023 by Gorgoff

[Castlerook]

I might be wrong on this, but if I recall correctly, older lore (and I mean before the Horus Heresy novels) never really specified the Primarchs' respective heights. It might be a more recent addition to make the Primarchs twelve feet tall, from a lore standpoint to make them seem more demi-god-like, and from a mini standpoint to make them centrepieces for their respective armies. 

 

As for the nature of Abaddon's close resemblance to Horus, it is well established that marines start to take on certain physical and mental traits similar to those of their gene-father. Sometimes this is expressed more readily in some than it is in others and in the case of the Luna Wolves, the one who really resembled Horus the most was "Little" Horus Aximand. Looking into Abaddon's past, we find that before becoming a space marine, he was already noted for possessing a massive build. I have no doubt that process of becoming a space marine would increase his bulk even more and eventually being issued with a suit of Terminator armour would also add to that. Honestly, it feels that while Abaddon did end up looking quite like Horus, as did many of his brother legionnaires, that compatibility with the gene-seed probably also expressed itself in height. He was a big guy made even bigger.

[Marshal Rohr]

Primarchs being 12 feet tall is a new addition. 

[Karhedron]

7 minutes ago, Marshal Rohr said:

Primarchs being 12 feet tall is a new addition. 

 

Not entirely but the older lore was very vague on the size of Primarchs. The possibility of giant Primarchs goes back to at least 2nd edition.

 

Quote

The Primarchs were genetically engineered creatures, artificial humanoids with astounding abilities. Each was created differently with his own unique powers. Some were made to resemble humankind, but many were of titanic proportions and strange appearance.