Abaddon's size compared to Horus - is he a true clone of Horus?

[Agramar_The_Luna_Wolf]

On 7/11/2023 at 9:11 PM, Astartes Consul said:

Counterpoint to this: half or more of the Primarch’s had adopted ‘Fathers’ on their home worlds after their capsules were scattered through the warp. Abaddon having been a child on Cthonia and being raised by a Father doesn’t actually exclude him also having a direct genetic link to Horus.

Yeap...but there said that he was "firstborn child". Not raised, not adopted. That detail is capital.

And we don't have clues of the fertility or carnal desire in a Primarch

Edited July 14, 2023 by AGRAMAR

[Castlerook]

53 minutes ago, Karhedron said:

Not entirely but the older lore was very vague on the size of Primarchs. The possibility of giant Primarchs goes back to at least 2nd edition.

Yeah, that was what I was thinking - in the 41st millennium, you have 10,000 years of allegory and myth obscuring the truth, to the point where "great men" became "giants of men" and eventually people taking that literally. You have vagueness that comes from stories being told over and over again, losing something and gaining other elements.

 

And then GW comes in and literally makes them giants.

[Petitioner's City]

Solar War (by ADB's close friend, John French) rather undercut the idea of Abaddon being a clone, by giving us Ezykyle's youth on Cthonia and recruitment by Sejanus.

 

While it could be false, I think it is rather more interesting that he convinced people of a myth, even his closest comrades, which only adds to his ability as Warmaster and master of war. 

[Karhedron]

16 hours ago, Castlerook said:

And then GW comes in and literally makes them giants.

 

The very first Primarch models were for Epic back in the early 90s and they were indeed giants, almost the size of small Titans. Now those were only the Daemon Primarchs who had left their mortal forms behind but it certainly gave GW scope for giants.

[Marshal Rohr]

I’d just like to point out even if a space marine is seven feet tall, that is giant. A Primarch being 8 feet tall is giant. 12 feet is just silly. 

[Karhedron]

28 minutes ago, Marshal Rohr said:

I’d just like to point out even if a space marine is seven feet tall, that is giant. A Primarch being 8 feet tall is giant. 12 feet is just silly. 

 

Someone analysed the various HH cover pieces and concluded most of the Primarchs were around 10' tall (give or take a bit). Alpharius is around 8', as is Angron (although this is because he is always depicted hunched). Sanguinius and Mortarion at taller at around 12'. The Khan is 14' and Magnus tops the bill at 15' although his size is noted to fluctuate.

[JeffJedi]

The original Space Wolf Commander Leman Russ model was normal marine sized for 1st edition 40k.

 

But Primarchs are known to change sizes. If their presence isn't know they are just another marine sitting in a landraider bench.

[Agramar_The_Luna_Wolf]

3 hours ago, JeffJedi said:

The original Space Wolf Commander Leman Russ model was normal marine sized for 1st edition 40k.

 

But Primarchs are known to change sizes. If their presence isn't know they are just another marine sitting in a landraider bench.

In the first edition, Primarchs weren't "ultra-human things", just the founders and commanders of a chapter. In fact, in that edition, Russ was a battered and veteran commander with bionics to help him to breath, who was killed in a duel with "Lionel Johnson" of the Dark angels. Later, the Primarchs were more special beings until the current times, starting mostly with the CCG of the Horus Heresy (Sabretooth Ltd)

[Noserenda]

5 hours ago, AGRAMAR said:

In the first edition, Primarchs weren't "ultra-human things", just the founders and commanders of a chapter. In fact, in that edition, Russ was a battered and veteran commander with bionics to help him to breath, who was killed in a duel with "Lionel Johnson" of the Dark angels. Later, the Primarchs were more special beings until the current times, starting mostly with the CCG of the Horus Heresy (Sabretooth Ltd)

Thats not really correct, that 1st edition Leman russ you describe looked very different to the model and image they released and later worked from, its clear that an early version of the modern Primarchs was already developed (For some of them!) in the formative years of later Rogue Trader and in place for Second edition and its complete lists of the Primarchs. 

The Primarchs and their stories were then fully in place for Index Astartes and the infamous 3.5 CSM codex both of which predate the Sabertooth card game by a few years i think? At least i recall the previous 40k ccg being around the same time as them. 

Sabertooth (As part of GW) did very much define the Early look of the Heresy though, the medium of a CCG meant tonnes of art was produced for various factions, but the Primarchs themselves were already drawn and floating around, well, the famous ones, it was a much more uneven field in the early days! 

Pretty sure they have grown over the years, i recall long discussions on the early 30k forums about exact heights but i always felt about 10ft was right. Height has a power in combat and in art after all. Not just physically either!  

[Petitioner's City]

I've always found Prospero Burns one of my favourite covers by Roberts, as well as the "history painting" composition of Unremembered Empire by him too. But they are such wonderfully contrasting visions of scale (as the sisters are close to both astartesian and primarch height, unlike the mini mortals in the later image, who are dwarfed by the artartesian scale nevermind primarch scale)

 

 

 

Scale - and magnification - is a fascinating subject. Ive written too many words about it in a my career elsewhere in the past, but it's fascinating to compare 40/30k depiction of the primarchs with scale in religious art - after all, they are sacred beings and this is was not even subtext going as far back as Horus Rising. For example, if she was real, of course the Virgin Mary was a normal-sized person, but for artists "Magnificat anima mea Dominum" and other scalar language sat beside or was spoken alongside wonderful giant Madonnas on Marian manuscripts and art through history (part of artistic traditions of monolithic deity and deified figures dating back to pre-history):

 

 

I think that ambiguity in text and image and miniatures of the primarchs (and marines) is fascinating - perhaps there just is no "canonical" size, at all, and that's ok. Perhaps rather treat them with the quasi-religious ambiguity of medieval iconographers and limners and sculptors - they are what you imagine, but best not pretend the imaginings and ymages we have of them are actually them :) 

[Agramar_The_Luna_Wolf]

10 hours ago, Noserenda said:

Thats not really correct, that 1st edition Leman russ you describe looked very different to the model and image they released and later worked from, its clear that an early version of the modern Primarchs was already developed (For some of them!) in the formative years of later Rogue Trader and in place for Second edition and its complete lists of the Primarchs. 

The Primarchs and their stories were then fully in place for Index Astartes and the infamous 3.5 CSM codex both of which predate the Sabertooth card game by a few years i think? At least i recall the previous 40k ccg being around the same time as them. 

Sabertooth (As part of GW) did very much define the Early look of the Heresy though, the medium of a CCG meant tonnes of art was produced for various factions, but the Primarchs themselves were already drawn and floating around, well, the famous ones, it was a much more uneven field in the early days! 

Pretty sure they have grown over the years, i recall long discussions on the early 30k forums about exact heights but i always felt about 10ft was right. Height has a power in combat and in art after all. Not just physically either!  

Leman Russ 1st model is from RT 1.5 (Compendium) and not from RT 1st

Edited July 14, 2023 by AGRAMAR

[Noserenda]

19 minutes ago, AGRAMAR said:

Leman Russ 1st model is from RT 1.5 (Compendium) and not from RT 1st

Yes, and like i mentioned, he has already changed completely from the RT rulebook description to something obviously recognisable to the modern depiction (Quick paste job and i couldnt find a good shot of the actual mini) 

[Agramar_The_Luna_Wolf]

2 hours ago, Noserenda said:

Yes, and like i mentioned, he has already changed completely from the RT rulebook description to something obviously recognisable to the modern depiction (Quick paste job and i couldnt find a good shot of the actual mini) 

The miniature was of the same size of an Space Marine.

From RT rulebook to RT Compendium many things changed in few time.

Edited July 14, 2023 by AGRAMAR

[Noserenda]

He was actually a little small for a Space marine, even his peer models int he Mk6 ranges were edging up at the time :D He was like the second metal model i bought for myself :D 

[LameBeard]

I really want someone to take that model, put it on a 40mm base and take it to the most official of official 30k tournaments as a completely legal WYSIWYG Primarch.

 

Back on topic - I have a vague recollection that the “Abaddon is a clone-son of Horus” rumour may even go back to Slaves to Darkness (effectively RT 1.5), or I might be muddling up the story about his body being reclaimed after a counter-attack, and then later destroyed to prevent a cloning attempt?

 

My own ‘head cannon’ is that a primarch’s growth is only completed by the presence (and intercession, if you will) of the Emperor. This would explain how they managed to live among mortals in their youth, only to become the giants we know of when leading the legions - it is my way of reconciling the contradictory evidence. But I like some of the ideas above also.

Edited July 14, 2023 by LameBeard

[Gorgoff]

2 hours ago, LameBeard said:

I really want someone to take that model, put it on a 40mm base and take it to the most official of official 30k tournaments as a completely legal WYSIWYG Primarch.

 

Back on topic - I have a vague recollection that the “Abaddon is a clone-son of Horus” rumour may even go back to Slaves to Darkness (effectively RT 1.5), or I might be muddling up the story about his body being reclaimed after a counter-attack, and then later destroyed to prevent a cloning attempt?

 

My own ‘head cannon’ is that a primarch’s growth is only completed by the presence (and intercession, if you will) of the Emperor. This would explain how they managed to live among mortals in their youth, only to become the giants we know of when leading the legions - it is my way of reconciling the contradictory evidence. But I like some of the ideas above also.

But in their stories they already are depicted as giants back on their home worlds. At least in the stories I read it always is a topic which gets meantioned but not further discussed like where did they live and which kind of horse did the Kahn has as a 3-4 metres tall human... 

[LameBeard]

Well El Johnson rides a horse at one point and no-one goes “poor horse”. So I don’t think (the older) stories alway depict them as giants. What about the snippet about Luther wiping the hair from Johnson’s brow when he’s discovered- was Johnson kneeling down? Maybe he was still a child …

[Gorgoff]

16 minutes ago, LameBeard said:

Well El Johnson rides a horse at one point and no-one goes “poor horse”. So I don’t think (the older) stories alway depict them as giants. What about the snippet about Luther wiping the hair from Johnson’s brow when he’s discovered- was Johnson kneeling down? Maybe he was still a child …

How old was he when he rode a horse, yes.

I have found a fan art.

That's how I see them. And I don't thinkbthe Emperor made them drop growing. First of all it never gets meantioned or even hinted anywhere and secondly it would mean that those primarchs he found earlier would be smaller which clearly is not the case.

[SkimaskMohawk]

I hate to break it about primarch growth, but apparently they evolve Pokemon style. Or at least Horus did...

[Arikel]

1 hour ago, SkimaskMohawk said:

I hate to break it about primarch growth, but apparently they evolve Pokemon style. Or at least Horus did...

Well ears and noses continuously grow over a human’s lifetime. Maybe the emperor replicated that process for the entire body for his primarchs. Rapid growth during their youth and then slowing to maybe a few inches per millenia would still wind up 12 feet plus tall by 40k times.

[Cactus]

1 hour ago, SkimaskMohawk said:

I hate to break it about primarch growth, but apparently they evolve Pokemon style. Or at least Horus did...

The Emperor must be really hurting over missing 002 and 011 from His Primardex.

[LameBeard]

Sorry I know nothing about Pokémon! But in response to @Gorgoff I didn’t mean the Emperor arriving stopped their growth, I mean they stopped growing at some point beforehand, then had another growth spurt when he arrived - like big E triggers a second puberty (but psychically).

 

edit: again, back on topic, I think we need to take the word ‘clone’ more metaphorically. A ‘clone’ literally is someone who shares 100% DNA, but we don’t even know if the Emperor made the Primarchs from a single cell of DNA - he may have used more ‘direct’ methods of creating their organs. Magnus talks about his consciousness forming as the Emperor created him, it doesn’t seem to me like he’s an embryo, but something that is crafted … perhaps that is more metaphor though. My point is what it means to be a ‘clone-son’ is deliberately obscure - as others said above, something that can add to the myth, but actually dissolves on any examination.

Edited July 15, 2023 by LameBeard

[Gorgoff]

2 hours ago, LameBeard said:

Sorry I know nothing about Pokémon! But in response to @Gorgoff I didn’t mean the Emperor arriving stopped their growth, I mean they stopped growing at some point beforehand, then had another growth spurt when he arrived - like big E triggers a second puberty (but psychically).

 

Ah ok.

That isn't meantioned anywhere either.

 

13 hours ago, Arikel said:

Well ears and noses continuously grow over a human’s lifetime. Maybe the emperor replicated that process for the entire body for his primarchs. Rapid growth during their youth and then slowing to maybe a few inches per millenia would still wind up 12 feet plus tall by 40k times.

Haha I like that a lot.

Like Space Snakes.

 

2 hours ago, LameBeard said:

edit: again, back on topic, I think we need to take the word ‘clone’ more metaphorically. A ‘clone’ literally is someone who shares 100% DNA, but we don’t even know if the Emperor made the Primarchs from a single cell of DNA - he may have used more ‘direct’ methods of creating their organs. Magnus talks about his consciousness forming as the Emperor created him, it doesn’t seem to me like he’s an embryo, but something that is crafted … perhaps that is more metaphor though. My point is what it means to be a ‘clone-son’ is deliberately obscure - as others said above, something that can add to the myth, but actually dissolves on any examination.

Like we already said aeveral times:

He isn't hia son and not his clone which is clearly stated in several books.

He is just a big ass Astartes who looks like Horus just like a lot of Lunar Wolves did. 

Which also was explained in several books first and foremost in the brilliant book one.

I would say that he was kind of his foster son though. As close as a Primarch can have a son. 

[Arikel]

Preface: I am not a lore expert, this is conjecture based on the general nature of the 30/40 K universes and how they function.

 

On the whole clone thing, I would put this down to in universe belief requirements, regardless of the actual truth of the matter. Warhammer is rife with the divine right of kings, chosen ones and ancient bloodlines. To both his enemies, and to a lesser extent, his allies and followers, he couldn’t possibly have achieved what he’s done without being the one true clone of Horus, regardless of the literal truth of the matter. For the Imperial faith to function correctly he has to be a clone of horus, just as the emperor, who explicitly rejected his worshippers and deification, is now the Comatose God of Humanity, whether he wanted it or not.

 

It is also a function of the universe that chaos and the warp are mutable and aren’t affected by any laws of science or nature, and that faith and emotion can affect changes in reality by interacting with then. If enough people truly believe that Abaddon is the clone son of Horus, the warp could certainly make that happen, even against his will, as the Emperor’s case demonstrates.

 

What does literal truth matter against the belief of billions, in such a universe?

[LameBeard]

1 hour ago, Gorgoff said:

 

Ah ok.

That isn't mentioned  anywhere either.

 

 

Like we already said several times:

He isn't his son and not his clone which is clearly stated in several books.

He is just a big ass Astartes who looks like Horus just like a lot of Lunar Wolves did. 

Which also was explained in several books first and foremost in the brilliant book one.

I would say that he was kind of his foster son though. As close as a Primarch can have a son. 

Yeah I know it’s not mentioned that’s why I said ‘head canon’ and I also said the clone-son claim doesn’t stand up to scrutiny, so not really sure what you are disagreeing with …